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mantq

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Feb 22, 2022
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Location
Eastern Europe
Hey guys!
I'm currently consuming a high protein diet (35%, sometimes a little bit more) of protein from my 4000kcal diet. I'm very lean, however, I'm wondering, if perhaps I'm doing more harm than good to my body and as per Ellington Darden, all that 'unnecessary' protein is basically being pee'd out as we don't need that much on a daily basis, thus putting unnecessary strain on the kidneys.
I read Darden's 2004 book, The New High Intensity Training, and found his dietary macronutrient recommendations interesting. He contends that an RDA of 0.36 grams of protein per pound of body weight is sufficient to meet bodybuilding requirements.
He wrote that, in 1970, he even conducted a 2-month experiment on himself to determine if massive amounts of protein were beneficial. He consumed over 300 grams of protein a day during part of the experiment and tested his own urine to determine nitrogen content, which is a measure of protein utilization. He reported that any time he consumed more than about the RDA, the excess was excreted in his urine.
For most lifters, he believes that about 10% to 20% of total caloric intake should come from protein, about 20-30% from fat, and about 60-70% from carbs. He reports that he has used this formula for every bodybuilder he ever trained.
Thoughts on this?

As per Darden:

"My research some 50 years ago showed me that you don’t need much protein for muscle growth to occur. Generally, if active men in the United States get one thing from their daily food consumption.. it’s an abundance of protein. Instead of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, half of that amount (0.5 grams per pound) would be more than sufficient. The key factor in muscular growth is to stimulate growth at the basic cellular level FIRST. Then rest adequately SECOND. And then consume enough water, calories, and protein THIRD."

"The first book I authored was called Nutrition and Athletic Performance (1976). It went through at least 30 printings. My ideal eating plan described in the book was composed of 13% proteins, 59% carbohydrates, and 28% fats. Those percentages are still on-target."

"13% protein is sufficient if you are consuming a normal number of calories per day – which would be from 2,800 through 3,500 calories daily."
 
Last edited:

DrJ

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Jun 16, 2015
Messages
624
@mantq does he mention the rate of protein consumption? I think it would matter. It seems you can only assimilate about 10-12g protein per hour and the rest goes out thru your kidneys. A meal typically takes a couple hours to digest meaning you probably don't want to consume more than 20-30g per meal.

300g per day is probably pointless bc it seems max you could absorb is around 240g. But then you gotta sleep so even that might not work since you can't space out the consumption in those hours. Maybe you could go 180-200g in a day if you plan it well and consume it every few hours and take 20g right at bedtime.
 

Sefton10

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Oct 19, 2019
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I do wonder how much of the protein drive in bodybuilding was simply down to supplement companies wanting to sell protein powders.
 

reaching

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Dec 17, 2020
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Interesting.
I’ve started attempting to get over 120 g of protein a day and it’s kind of a chore without protein powders.
 

mantq

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Feb 22, 2022
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Location
Eastern Europe
The problem with low protein diets, in my opinion and past experiences, is that you are rarely satisfied (unless you eat tons of fiber). I mean, what are you supposed to eat on a low protein diet and not feel hungry all the time..? Starches? Lots of fat?
 

Sefton10

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The problem with low protein diets, in my opinion and past experiences, is that you are rarely satisfied (unless you eat tons of fiber). I mean, what are you supposed to eat on a low protein diet and not feel hungry all the time..? Starches? Lots of fat?
Carbs for energy. Enough fat for satiation. Cocoa butter hits different for me - good satiation without the heaviness of animal/dairy fat.

Interestingly, Mike Mentzer used to get 60g of protein a day (according to this at least):

 

reaching

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Carbs for energy. Enough fat for satiation. Cocoa butter hits different for me - good satiation without the heaviness of animal/dairy fat.

Interestingly, Mike Mentzer used to get 60g of protein a day (according to this at least):


The scroll on this site is weird. It's like delayed or continues. Hard to explain.
Never had cocoa butter. Interested in it because of the stearic acid content.
 

JamesKing

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Sep 3, 2020
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Hi. I think it would be better if you ask a nutritionist about it. They studied for it. As for supplements, it’s a controversial issue for everyone here, I guess. As for me, I take SARMs by these guys https://purerawz.co/. I have a great friend who’s a bodybuilder, so he advised me on this stuff. And it still helps me. But, the first thing you should pay attention to is your lifestyle. The way you eat, sleep and wake up really matters. So, start with it first. Let supplements help you maintain your routine and lifestyle.
 

crestind

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Apr 20, 2017
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Years ago before the internet turned into the complete cesspit it is today there was a guy selling a profuct that consisted of every single amino acid the body needed, plus nonessentials. And according to him some studies were done showing very little protein needed, and that constant availability was the key, so you would just consume these complete amino acid supplements constantly throughout the day and achieve very little muscle loss even after continuous strenuous activity and the like, or incredible muscle gains from strength training.
 

RPDiciple

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Feb 25, 2015
Messages
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I have been eating a lot of protein like 150-200 grams a day. After listening to the latest Ray peat interview and read more and all that im currently experimenting with lower protien. 50-60 grams a day from animal sources like milk etc. Its been some weeks but im currently not experiemencing any negative effects. And i really hope this is the way to go as well because it makes eating so much more delicious, cheap and easy. Im also into bodybuilding and im cutting as well to get single digit bodyfat % lean. So im really putting this into the test.
 

Roni123@

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I have been eating a lot of protein like 150-200 grams a day. After listening to the latest Ray peat interview and read more and all that im currently experimenting with lower protien. 50-60 grams a day from animal sources like milk etc. Its been some weeks but im currently not experiemencing any negative effects. And i really hope this is the way to go as well because it makes eating so much more delicious, cheap and easy. Im also into bodybuilding and im cutting as well to get single digit bodyfat % lean. So im really putting this into the test.
Woww
 

piro444

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italy
P
I have been eating a lot of protein like 150-200 grams a day. After listening to the latest Ray peat interview and read more and all that im currently experimenting with lower protien. 50-60 grams a day from animal sources like milk etc. Its been some weeks but im currently not experiemencing any negative effects. And i really hope this is the way to go as well because it makes eating so much more delicious, cheap and easy. Im also into bodybuilding and im cutting as well to get single digit bodyfat % lean. So im really putting this into the test.
Please make an update in the future
 

FrenchKiwi

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Jan 17, 2020
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Carbs for energy. Enough fat for satiation. Cocoa butter hits different for me - good satiation without the heaviness of animal/dairy fat.

Interestingly, Mike Mentzer used to get 60g of protein a day (according to this at least):

I thought that the combo of fat and carbs is what stimulated overeating. So if I am someone who has a large appetite and doesn't want to overeat calories, how can I do this eating a lower protein, higher fat and carb diet?
 

FrenchKiwi

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Jan 17, 2020
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The problem with low protein diets, in my opinion and past experiences, is that you are rarely satisfied (unless you eat tons of fiber). I mean, what are you supposed to eat on a low protein diet and not feel hungry all the time..? Starches? Lots of fat?
This is the problem I have too. Fat and carbs are really easy to overeat for me and don't make me full until I've blown out my calories
 

FrenchKiwi

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Jan 17, 2020
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I have been eating a lot of protein like 150-200 grams a day. After listening to the latest Ray peat interview and read more and all that im currently experimenting with lower protien. 50-60 grams a day from animal sources like milk etc. Its been some weeks but im currently not experiemencing any negative effects. And i really hope this is the way to go as well because it makes eating so much more delicious, cheap and easy. Im also into bodybuilding and im cutting as well to get single digit bodyfat % lean. So im really putting this into the test.
What do you eat in a day and how do you manage satiety on a cut? Is satiety different than when you were on high protein? I am also trying to drop bodyfat but fat free starch doesn't keep me full for long and fat with starch is very calorie dense. Fruit leaves me hungrier than if I hadn't eaten anything. But for financial and health reasons I would love to eat less protein and still meet my aesthetic goals without starving all the time.
 

Sefton10

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I thought that the combo of fat and carbs is what stimulated overeating. So if I am someone who has a large appetite and doesn't want to overeat calories, how can I do this eating a lower protein, higher fat and carb diet?
It’s the opposite for me - higher protein makes me hungrier.
 

sugarbabe

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Years ago before the internet turned into the complete cesspit it is today there was a guy selling a profuct that consisted of every single amino acid the body needed, plus nonessentials. And according to him some studies were done showing very little protein needed, and that constant availability was the key, so you would just consume these complete amino acid supplements constantly throughout the day and achieve very little muscle loss even after continuous strenuous activity and the like, or incredible muscle gains from strength training.
He ended up in the hospital with blocked arteries so take anything he said with a grain of salt.
 

Sefton10

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That is so interesting. What are your most filling combos?
I find oats, lentils, rice, fruit, and cocoa butter a really satisfying base that is filling and keeps me going for hours between meals. Egg yolks and oysters for the micronutrients.
 

FrenchKiwi

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I find oats, lentils, rice, fruit, and cocoa butter a really satisfying base that is filling and keeps me going for hours between meals. Egg yolks and oysters for the micronutrients.
OMG I love all of these, except cocoa butter that I have never tried and don't know how to use. I just tried homemade sourdough and eggs for breakfast because I looove bread. But usually my sourdough leaves me hungry, but maybe because I don't put fat with it. I normally do mashed banana. Breakfast is the hardest for me because my favourite combos leave me hungry. I prefer to eat my bread or porridge but I don't know what fat sources to put with it that will help blood sugar and satiety. I crave more sweet foods in the morning. What's your breakfast? How do you eat your oats?
 

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