Too Much Protein At Once?

[BingDing]

I was mixing my regular milk/skyr/sugar/glycine/taurine smoothie and started wondering if 50g of protein at once was too much. A lot of bodybuilder sites say 30g is the most the body can use to build muscle, but I'm more interested in metabolism in general. Any thoughts on whether 50g is too much?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I heard that as well! I guess it might be stressful to dispose of them as well as uneconomical. It does get tricky to go super high while keeping feedings under thirty grams though. Adding a keto-acid component can help soak up the ammonia.

 

[Zachs]

A few studies have shown that maximal protein synthesis is acheived with 20-30g. That is not the only reason we eat protein though.

I try to eat at least 30g a sitting.

 

[Such_Saturation]

That's about the protein in a quart of milk, and that's about the volume of my stomach. Personally, I take that hint from Nature!

 

[BingDing]

Thanks guys. It wouldn't be too hard to break my smoothie into two meals, might as well try and get the most out of it.

 

[Zachs]

That's about the protein in a quart of milk, and that's about the volume of my stomach. Personally, I take that hint from Nature!

I usually drink a quart with my meal! Haha.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Even in the "bodybuilding world" this myth is pretty much debunked. You need about 30g of a good protein source in a meal to maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis. but that's not to say anything about being unable to digest more than this in one meal. It simply takes longer to digest a larger meal.

 

[BingDing]

Thanks, gl;itch. That is good to know.

 

[haidut]

I heard that as well! I guess it might be stressful to dispose of them as well as uneconomical. It does get tricky to go super high while keeping feedings under thirty grams though. Adding a keto-acid component can help soak up the ammonia.

Most studies I have seen report side effects from ingesting more than 30g per meal. The main issue is ammonia, which for most people is a real problem since most people have suboptimal liver function. This guideline(<=30g) seems very close to the studies showing side effects from taking more than 25g of BCAA per meal, keeping in mind that BCAA escape hepatic metabolism and should not generate as much ammonia. Furthermore, Ray wrote that eating too much protein in each meal acutely raises prolactin (as does drinking a lot of water). So, I'd keep protein intake at 25g-30g per meal and BCAA at <5g per meal in order to reduce serotonin without increasing ammonia.
Alternatively, you can buy some Ceylon cinnamon and take 1g-2g with each high protein meal. It has to be Ceylon type since regular cinnamon contains coumarin, which is a carcinogen. In addition, only Ceylon type metabolizes into sodium benzoate, which chelates ammonia. In the USA, sodium benzoate is sold as a drug called Ucephan, to reduce ammonia in people with bad liver or kidney function. I also posted a study some time ago on Ceylon cinnamon potently reducing NO synthesis and reversing Parkinson disease in a mice model.
Try it out before going to bed - 1g-2g with something sweet since it may lower blood sugar. It will make you pee ammonia like crazy and you will sleep deep and sound with no awakening during the night. That tells me most people probably build up ammonia as they age. There is a study using the amino acid ornithine, where 500mg of ornithine for 2 weeks relieved insomnia in fatigued middle aged men. Ornithine also lowers ammonia but not as well as sodium benzoate. Finally, lithium and other sodium compounds will also lower ammonia. So, increasing sodium intake should have similar effects.
Anyways, just thought I'd mention what I've read and tried.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I've been looking out for that Ceylon at the store!

 

[BingDing]

Man, you come up with some great stuff, haidut. Thanks!! A couple hours with google found lots of support for everything you said.

This page says 1 tsp of ground cinnamon is 2.6g. If anyone uses a capsule machine one "00" capsule would be about 1/2g.

My labs last summer had high cis-aconitate which they characterized as "renal ammonia loading". They said to eat less protein and use arginine, both of which I promptly ignored.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Very interesting Haidut. That could explain why when I started adding salt specifically into my diet that my frequent night time awakenings to urinate when down markedly. Do you think that in an otherwise healthy person with moderate/high protein intake that sodium from salt is sufficient to help clear ammonia? I get about 180-230 or so grams of protein daily and salt all drinks and most meals.

 

[haidut]

Man, you come up with some great stuff, haidut. Thanks!! A couple hours with google found lots of support for everything you said.

This page says 1 tsp of ground cinnamon is 2.6g. If anyone uses a capsule machine one "00" capsule would be about 1/2g.

My labs last summer had high cis-aconitate which they characterized as "renal ammonia loading". They said to eat less protein and use arginine, both of which I promptly ignored.

My pleasure, I am glad if t helps!
Of all the ammonia-reducing routes I'd go with Ceylon cinnamon since the ornithine products on the market petty much all contain silica and also some of the ornithine will metabolize into arginine and thus generate nitric oxide or some other toxic metabolites. The Wiki page has some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithine

So, Ceylon cinnamon will also reduce NO as per the Parkinson mouse study and I think it also raises dopamine since for me it results in libido increase and my blood tests around the time I was taking it showed very low prolactin.
The only problem is I have not read Peat's opinion on cinnamon and don't know if it's safe for long term use. There is evidence that sodium benzoate may metabolize into benzene under the wrong conditions and benzene is a known carcinogen. But the cinnamon is delicious and I don't get weird looks like when I am taking some pills at lunch that are the size of a kidney bean (the ornithine supplements looks like that).
I think spoardically, like 1g-2g twice a week to reduce ammonia in the brain (which is where it mainly accumulates and blood tests cannot pick up on that) should be safe for most people, assuming it is consumed with something sweet. In fact, I sprinkle it on my vanilla ice cream and it is awesome.

 

[haidut]

Very interesting Haidut. That could explain why when I started adding salt specifically into my diet that my frequent night time awakenings to urinate when down markedly. Do you think that in an otherwise healthy person with moderate/high protein intake that sodium from salt is sufficient to help clear ammonia? I get about 180-230 or so grams of protein daily and salt all drinks and most meals.

Ammonia accumulates into the brain and I think most people over 25 will probably have too much of it in their CSF. You can have very low ammonia in blood and very high in brain. In fact, the two main theories behind exercise fatigue are buildup of ammonia in the brain and increased serotonin in the brain due to more free tryptophan floating around when a person starts to burn fat. The human study with workers and reduced fatigue shows that I think. They were all "healthy" people, for whatever that means according to the study protocol used.
So, high protein diet in people over 25 may call for some cinnamon or other ammonia reducing agent. All I know is that it works like a charm for me and it also shows on blood tests that it lowers prolactin. Sodium is also a good option, so it's good to have several options available. You can also get lithium aspartate from Amazon and take one capsule before bed twice a week.

 

[tara]

I think spoardically, like 1g-2g twice a week to reduce ammonia in the brain (which is where it mainly accumulates and blood tests cannot pick up on that) should be safe for most people, assuming it is consumed with something sweet. In fact, I sprinkle [cinnamon] on my vanilla ice cream and it is awesome.

Coffee+ milk+sugar+salt+cinnamon= :)

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Very interesting Haidut. That could explain why when I started adding salt specifically into my diet that my frequent night time awakenings to urinate when down markedly. Do you think that in an otherwise healthy person with moderate/high protein intake that sodium from salt is sufficient to help clear ammonia? I get about 180-230 or so grams of protein daily and salt all drinks and most meals.

Ammonia accumulates into the brain and I think most people over 25 will probably have too much of it in their CSF. You can have very low ammonia in blood and very high in brain. In fact, the two main theories behind exercise fatigue are buildup of ammonia in the brain and increased serotonin in the brain due to more free tryptophan floating around when a person starts to burn fat. The human study with workers and reduced fatigue shows that I think. They were all "healthy" people, for whatever that means according to the study protocol used.
So, high protein diet in people over 25 may call for some cinnamon or other ammonia reducing agent. All I know is that it works like a charm for me and it also shows on blood tests that it lowers prolactin. Sodium is also a good option, so it's good to have several options available. You can also get lithium aspartate from Amazon and take one capsule before bed twice a week.

I might have to give it a try. Thanks for the idea. The prolactin angle interests me greatly as well.

 

[Dezz]

Would eating alot of potatoes help with excess protein?

 

[Peata]

any idea on amount of the Morton's canning salt in once sitting to reduce ammonia?

 

[BingDing]

Coffee+ milk+sugar+salt+cinnamon= :)

Oatmeal with maple syrup, cinnamon and vanilla ice cream or heavy cream have done it for me for decades! (Of course no oatmeal if I'm being super strict.)

 

[tara]

Coffee+ milk+sugar+salt+cinnamon= :)

Oatmeal with maple syrup, cinnamon and vanilla ice cream or heavy cream have done it for me for decades! (Of course no oatmeal if I'm being super strict.)

Mmm.
Or oatmeal porridge + whole milk + stewed peaches/apples + cinnamon
Or sweet milky cocoa + gelatine + cinnamon
:)