Too Much Progesterone?

[Rosy Thorn]

I started high amounts of transdermal progesterone in March at the advice of a Facebook health guru because that's what one does when doctors fail. Anyway, this person claims there is no study that shows you can get too much progesterone. I think this sounds like hogwash. I think you can get too much of anything. The FB guru says to take high amounts of progesterone every day until your symptoms reduce and then slowly reduce the progesterone. My problem is that I'm not sure which symptoms are estrogen dominance and which are thyroid. For instance, my pms cramps went away when I started Armour thyroid. I guess my question is how do I know if I'm getting too much progesterone and can excess progesterone convert to estrogen?

 

[ecstatichamster]

it doesn't convert into estrogen.

How much are you taking?

I would take it so symptoms disappear.

My wife will take as much as a teaspoon of Progest-E at times, but normally only a few drops. 1 drop=3mg, a teaspoon is probably 100 drops, so that's her range.

Have you tried pregnenolone? I have a feeling that this is a better option for many women than a ton of progesterone. Pregnenolone is further upstream and the body can do whatever it needs with it, plus pregnenolone itself has very calming effects.

 

[Rosy Thorn]

I'm taking 625mg a day of progesterone and I've taken that amount since last March. I still have melasma on my forehead and a few other estrogen dominance symptoms. I have pregnenolone, but I'm cautious of that because I've heard it can convert to estrogen.

 

[HDD]

What progesterone product are you using? The following are instructions regarding Progest-e supplementation (or an equivalent progesterone) from "Progesterone Summaries".

"Three to four drops, or about 10 to 15 milligrams of progesterone, is often enough to bring the progesterone level up to normal. That amount can be taken days 14 through 28 of the menstrual cycle; this amount may be repeated once or twice during the day as needed to alleviate symptoms. Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)"


"With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol."
Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone

 

[Rosy Thorn]

I'm using a 10% transdermal cream. I'm not sure how to transition to an oral without causing issues. NDT doesn't seem to help me any more. I just changed my diet to be more along Peat's guidelines. I was doing paleo to heal my gut and it caused as many problems as it helped. I have mixed feelings about the Peat diet as I've been restricted for so long and I dislike moving to another restrictive diet. Starch causes me bloating, though.

This is the cream I'm using: Buy Progesterone Cream 2 oz Jar - Onas Natural 10% Concentrated

 

[HDD]

I'm using a 10% transdermal cream. I'm not sure how to transition to an oral without causing issues. NDT doesn't seem to help me any more. I just changed my diet to be more along Peat's guidelines. I was doing paleo to heal my gut and it caused as many problems as it helped. I have mixed feelings about the Peat diet as I've been restricted for so long and I dislike moving to another restrictive diet. Starch causes me bloating, though.

This is the cream I'm using: Buy Progesterone Cream 2 oz Jar - Onas Natural 10% Concentrated

The progesterone cream looks like a good product. I'm not sure if it is as effective as the products that are recommended on this forum. They are: Progestene, Simply Progesterone, and Progest-e. You can do a search on the forum for more information on them if you like.

What symptoms do you have? Were you diagnosed hypothyroid?

A good nutritional diet is key in healing. It does take some time learning and unlearning and tweaking. Here is the link for some guidelines:
Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines


Peat discusses reasons why thyroid might not be working in these email replies about thyroid. There is quite a bit about dosing thyroid in them but he does answer about thyroid not working.
Peatarian.com Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

There are several discussions on thyroid products that are being used. I don't think Armour has the reputation that it once had so that could be the problem.
Edited to finish sentence.

 

[tara]

Welcome Rosy,
Nice references from HDD.
A couple of other thoughts.

I've read that the creams can let the progesterone absorb into the subcutaneous fat, so that some of it does not get into circulation immediately. This may mean that it will keep being released into circulation even after you stop dosing, making it a bit trickier to assess suitable dose.
Peat recommends the suitable preparations rubbed on the gums - this absorbs very quickly, so you should be able to tell within 10 mins or so whether you are getting a significant effect.

Have you had a go at monitoring body temps and resting heart rate? This can give you some clues about how strong your base metabolism is, and may help to figure out whether thyroid supps are relevant.
Are you eating enough to support increased metabolism effects from thyroid or progesterone?

I have mixed feelings about the Peat diet as I've been restricted for so long and I dislike moving to another restrictive diet.

Other than minimising PUFA, which I think is probably useful for almost everyone, I don't think most people have to be very restrictive to get some benefits. I wouldn't encourage you to narrow it down too much except where you can see the direct benefits in yourself.
Make sure you are getting a reasonable amount of protein, carbs, fruit/juice, milk/cheese if it agrees with you, try adding in some gelatin or collagen, cover basic mineral and vitamin needs, experiment with starchy foods and other foods. Don't make it more of a drag than it has to be. I eat a different balance of foods than I used to, but there are not many things I will turn down under all circumstances. Other than high PUFA foods, and even then I might eat an occasional little bit of salmon or nuts or someone's special baking.)
It seems it can take a bit for the digestive system to adapt to a change in diet, esp. after leaving the carb handling processes out of practice and swamped with fat.

 

[lindsay]

There is no such thing as too much progesterone (IMO), if it is a good progesterone - I don't trust anything really other than Health Natura's progesterone or Kenogen's (RP's) progest-e. I have been taking them both, the former recently, the latter for over two years.

If you feel weird about taking progesterone orally, you can just apply it to the skin along with MCT or coconut oil. I had amazing results high dosing progesterone, within a few months - meaning, my progesterone levels went from almost zero to like 18 in blood tests. Now, I only take a small amount daily, or every other day, topically or as a suppository vaginally.

I'm going to say that, progesterone did very little for my PMS symptoms - I had amenorrhea for close to 3 years, so PMS was not really an issue for me, but menopausal symptoms were (at a young age) and they got much better with progesterone (I have recently started menstruating again). But for my mental stability, it is amazing. I can deal with PMS if my mental status is in check. I also only have one ovary, so I need more than most women who have two ovaries. It was a serious game changer for me, but if you are not liking your product, I would absolutely recommend Kenogen's or Health Natura's - Health Natura's is way easier to apply topically, as it is more fluid and sinks in much quicker. I have not tried Haidut's progesterone product, but people say good things about it, so that is another option.

Wishing you the best of luck! And knowledge

 

[schultz]

Restrictive? When I discovered Ray Peat's website I found it liberating. The first step is just to avoid PUFA, the major source being seed oils and such. You can eat all the same foods that are made with seed oils but just use coconut oil. Sure, you can delve into being more restrictive if you're a bit obsessive like myself, but it's not necessary at all. I freaking love this way of eating!

There is no documented case of a progesterone overdose in humans or animals I believe. So it's not hogwash if the statement he made says "there is no study that shows..." because there isn't. That doesn't mean you can't overdose, just that there are no studies on it (I have not confirmed this for myself, but am just playing Devil's advocate... though Ray has said the same thing before as well). Ray Peat says if you took a high enough dose you'd most likely fall asleep, and if enough was taken you might stop breathing, but this is just what he suspects. He bases this off an anecdote about some rats being overdosed. The researchers thought they died and threw them in the trash, but the head researcher (may have been Hans Selye, I don't quite remember) questioned this and told them to retrieve the rats from the garbage. It turns out they didn't die but were just very sleepy.

The product you take seems decent, but the absorption rate is probably under 20%. Ray Peat said the mixture he came up with, which is vitamin e and progesterone, has a topical absorption of 20%.

The info I mentioned is from podcasts and I can post the clips of Ray saying them if you want just for verification. It's always nice to hear it straight from the source instead of from some lay person who could just be interpreting and paraphrasing I do not want to be responsible for spreading false information, especially if I start it off with "Ray Peat says this...".