Too Much Liquids?

[Aleeri]

I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to my weekday diets (because work) so I am always trying to tweak it to cover all my nutritional bases without spending too much time on preparation.

I have been experimenting with the majority of calories from milk for a while and went ok but became expensive because I am in Asia. So I reduced the amount and added casein protein powder to complement (one high in calcium). I noticed an improvement in temperature doing this.

I now just experimented a short period with the majority of calories from orange juice instead and this is where I hit the wall.

I do not know what makes it different from milk but I get adrenaline symptoms from too much OJ when consuming little other solid foods, even when consuming enough calories. Cold hands and feet, brain fog and a general shitty feeling.

Example, the other day I had 4 cups of OJ, 1 cup Chocolate and then ate 1kg Papaya and got a really shitty feeling. Urine completely clear, refractometer shows overhydrated.

How do you guys manage this type of diet that's mostly liquid for some? From my experience, it doesn't seem very natural for the body.

How come Ray Peat even recommend this, like judging from Matt Stones writings as well it seems like many people have problems with blood volume.


I am now considering switching to milk with lots of honey and casein protein powder as the bulk of calories.

 

[Cirion]

I don't think it's natural either and not surprised it isn't working for you because I have experienced much of the same. One of the big things you lose on a liquid diet (among other things) is fiber. Fiber gets a negative reaction from some on these forums, but you do need it. OJ and milk are great in many ways but shouldn't be the only things you have. I hear you on the annoyance of preparation as well, but I just don't feel like you can get away from solid foods. The way I look at it, some things like OJ can be excellent just for providing some/much of the gasoline for your body, but not all the nutrition seen in a complete diet. My opinion is that OJ is one of the many promoted "foods" because most people in todays' culture are under-fueling their bodies, and OJ (and milk) are quick and easy ways to get said fuel.

 

[Nicolas Noyola]

I think if you consume alot of liquid and dont salt the liquid, it can lead to loss of sodium in the body, which disturbs the ratio of calcium to magnesium because salt helps spare magnesium. thats what i noticed epsecially after consuming a lot of dairy recently and juice lately, and eventually experiencing symptoms of milk-alkali syndrome and magnesium deficiency. so either salt your liquid, drink less liquid, or eat more solid food that is very well salted. in fact, for that matter, have you noticed any increase in cravings of salt?

 

[Runenight201]

Been struggling with this forever, and I’ve ran a decent amount of computations to slowly start figuring out what works and doesn’t work for me.

Too many liquids is always bad. The second your urine becomes clear and there’s frequent urination, this means that there is too much water in the body. Eating salt should help retain this water, but honestly, putting salt on top of milk, fruit, or fruit juice is disguistin (in my opinion, and tomatoes are probably the exception). I have found that vegetable broths made with a calcium/magnesium leaf base is a great addition to the diet. You can make it very salty, and so in addition to adding salt, it’s also adding calcium and magnesium. Since I have to be careful with my milk intake, I find that this is a great way to get added salt/minerals without eating more liquids fruits/milk/starch.

Starch is problematic, in that it is a great carrier for salt, but rarely provides good energy (in my experience, rice/potatoes always make me feel like poo). Sourdough bread combined with milk and coffee seem to be alright for me, but I’d recommend finding a starch source that you enjoy that you can salt. I think few people succeed on milk and fruit, but it is possible if your in the select few that can process large amounts of milk.

Of course, meat can be salted as well, and if you find meat not causing any problems (always consume with gelatin), then adding a salted starch/meat/broth source should go a long way in breaking up the fruit liquid that causes the frequent urination.

Some less liquidy fruits can also be experimented with. Apples/apple sauce, bananas, dried fruits.

 

[schultz]

Maybe throw in some cheese or something to add a bit of salt and fat to the mix. I am a big Romano fan myself.

I recently upped my orange juice intake (I suspected my cholesterol was too low) and it has been very helpful. Improved mood, improved libido, more energy. I consume approximately 16 cups of liquid per day, though I also take thyroid (T3 and a bit of T4) so maybe that is one reason the extra liquid doesn't bother me? The thyroid is probably also the reason my cholesterol was low (if it even was...).

Thyroid also helps retain magnesium apparently, according to Peat. So maybe you have a bit of a thyroid issue if you are not able to consume much liquid. Ray has said in the past that lots of liquid from OJ and Milk is not a problem, though I don't remember exactly what he said. It's somewhere on the forum anyway...

Regarding the cholesterol and sugar thing, if anybody is interested, I read a meta analysis which suggested that sugar doesn't have an effect on cholesterol when fructose is kept under 100g per day (I suppose that would be free fructose as well as the fructose from sucrose). Since I was drinking lots of lattes (the added sugar would have fructose, but milk doesn't) and neglecting OJ a bit, my fructose was actually under 100g per day when I added it up. The extra OJ I've been drinking got rid of the problem of my arm falling asleep when I sleep with my head on my arm (thanks @tca300 for the suggestion that low cholesterol could be a cause of that).

Very High Fructose Intake Increases Serum LDL-Cholesterol and Total Cholesterol: A Meta-Analysis of Controlled Feeding Trials | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"However, no effect was shown on TC or LDL-C when the fructose intake was ≤100 g/d. In conclusion, it was shown that very high fructose intake (>100 g/d) increases serum LDL-C and TC concentrations. Larger, longer, and higher-quality human, controlled, feeding trials are needed to confirm these results."

 

[Blossom]

Example, the other day I had 4 cups of OJ, 1 cup Chocolate and then ate 1kg Papaya and got a really shitty feeling. Urine completely clear, refractometer shows overhydrated.

You may also benefit from some protein to balance the carbs with this combo. You could add collagen to your OJ or have some cheese like @schultz mentioned.

 

[Aleeri]

Thanks guys, appreciate the tips!

The example day I mentioned I was actually salting extra probably 2 tsp and it did still not help. I also use topical magnesium spray.

I find that consuming mostly liquids makes it very difficult to keep blood sugar balanced as well, it tends to shoot up and down quickly this way.

Sure extra salt would probably be good to help retain the water but it still doesn't prevent excess water so I don't see how it solves the problem. Also, the kidneys can only process so much every hour so the only way to pull this off properly would be something like drip feeding yourself small amounts continuously over time hence avoiding overhydration as well as blood sugar swings. Not very doable practically though.

Starch makes me very lazy, not a good energy source I think. I have problems with gluten (more than most) so have to stay away from all kinds of bread. Lucky enough I have zero issues with dairy since I am Scandinavian, I can even consume 1-1.5 litres in one go without digestive problems.

Meat works ok for me but lowers blood sugar if not combined with sugar/starch. I have not been able to find any type of commercial gelatin that works for me. I tried collagen, gelatin, pork rinds and they all give me brain fog when I approach therapeutical dosages. I am now experimenting with Thorne Glycine caps and seems to work better.

What about cooking fruits to get rid of some excess water? Or maybe you would kill a lot of the nutrients this way?

I take T3 but only up to 6mcg per day (quarter tab), I seem to have some thyroid issue but it's much better than before. Considering without T3/caffeine I am still at a temp of like 36.6 Celsius so figured it's not completely bad.

After reading the perks of honey I think I will try this now and add large amounts to milk with some salt and see how it goes.

 

[tca300]

Maybe throw in some cheese or something to add a bit of salt and fat to the mix. I am a big Romano fan myself.

I recently upped my orange juice intake (I suspected my cholesterol was too low) and it has been very helpful. Improved mood, improved libido, more energy. I consume approximately 16 cups of liquid per day, though I also take thyroid (T3 and a bit of T4) so maybe that is one reason the extra liquid doesn't bother me? The thyroid is probably also the reason my cholesterol was low (if it even was...).

Thyroid also helps retain magnesium apparently, according to Peat. So maybe you have a bit of a thyroid issue if you are not able to consume much liquid. Ray has said in the past that lots of liquid from OJ and Milk is not a problem, though I don't remember exactly what he said. It's somewhere on the forum anyway...

Regarding the cholesterol and sugar thing, if anybody is interested, I read a meta analysis which suggested that sugar doesn't have an effect on cholesterol when fructose is kept under 100g per day (I suppose that would be free fructose as well as the fructose from sucrose). Since I was drinking lots of lattes (the added sugar would have fructose, but milk doesn't) and neglecting OJ a bit, my fructose was actually under 100g per day when I added it up. The extra OJ I've been drinking got rid of the problem of my arm falling asleep when I sleep with my head on my arm (thanks @tca300 for the suggestion that low cholesterol could be a cause of that).

Very High Fructose Intake Increases Serum LDL-Cholesterol and Total Cholesterol: A Meta-Analysis of Controlled Feeding Trials | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"However, no effect was shown on TC or LDL-C when the fructose intake was ≤100 g/d. In conclusion, it was shown that very high fructose intake (>100 g/d) increases serum LDL-C and TC concentrations. Larger, longer, and higher-quality human, controlled, feeding trials are needed to confirm these results."

 

[Runenight201]

I've been thinking lately about the diet we ate through our evolutionary past, and if we originated in the tropics of Africa, I believe eating a mainly fruit based diet with some leaves and very occasional animal protein their critters or sea food would be most closely resemble our past. However, the wild fruits of Africa are far different from the fruits we have at the supermarket. Wild and Ancient Fruit: Is it Really Small, Bitter, and Low in Sugar?

There are certain fruits that are much drier and have less water content, so perhaps seeking those out could be beneficial.

I haven't been able to find a mainly fruit based diet that works for me, as I find most dried fruits not that appealing, and the water fruits quickly make me go hypo. I think the only solution that is left is substantially upping dairy and eating a more starchy diet.

 

[Herbie]

I still don't know how people manage all these liquids.

People say I can't handle liquids because my thyroid is hypo but my heart rate is 80-90 bpm, I only ever breath through my nose and not much at that and I live on the edge of a desert so the air is dry not humid. I excrete 300ml of urine which I researched is the the average amount the bladder can hold and its healthy to urinate around 6 times per day give or take. I don't know my temperature because I am stubborn and want a mercury thermometer or nothing and I cannot find any anywhere.

when I drink espresso, bananas, sultanas and some water I feel fine. Id prefer not to urinate very much as it conflicts with my lifestyle. If I have heaps of milk and oj, I feel horribly stressed, urine is clear and frequent, having salt beyond taste does nothing.

1 orange seems to be enough for me with a meal and small amount of milk.

Im one of those people who is ok on 1500-2000 calories, once I go beyond this I have issues, Ive tried more fat, more protein, more sugar, even heaps of sugar, its ok, though not for the long run, but not as nice as a lower caloric diet for me. I've always been like this, not eat much and I'm lean and muscular, I have a predominant thyroid and bones around it, its not swollen just its very noticeable like adams apple and muscular neck, I think maybe I was born with an nice thyroid already and never had much pufa in my life i figured no more than 10grams in a day at the most which was not every day throughout life. I don't know how people have all these calories without having digestive issues either, I'm not saying people who do these have issues, I don't know how people have the time for the calories either, I am working class white trash, I haven't the time.

Im writing this so people out there who are drinking too much oj and milk and having urine issues so they can try other ways. apologies for not having yet an explanation as to why some people can handle lots of liquid and some can't while both can seemingly have healthy thyroid function.

 

[Runenight201]

I am working class white trash, I haven't the time.

Haha now I see why your avatar is Ricky =P

 

[Herbie]

Haha now I see why your avatar is Ricky =P

Im here just trying to self smart my self and self learn myself.

 

[Cirion]

How tall are you? 1500-2000 calories is low even for a female, I'm astonished that you can function let alone function well on that amount of calories. That's the amount of calories that got me to nearly zero body fat (not kidding) and probably almost dead back when I was extremely orthorexic. Not that I don't believe you, but you're definitely not the average haha. You're right though, eating can sometimes feel like a full time a job at times, but it's worth it to feel better.

 

[Herbie]

How tall are you? 1500-2000 calories is low even for a female, I'm astonished that you can function let alone function well on that amount of calories. That's the amount of calories that got me to nearly zero body fat (not kidding) and probably almost dead back when I was extremely orthorexic. Not that I don't believe you, but you're definitely not the average haha. You're right though, eating can sometimes feel like a full time a job at times, but it's worth it to feel better.

5’6, 30inch waist, 48 inch chest, ratio of 1.6, early 30s age, I think those macro calculators say 1800-2000 calories for me to maintain weight at around 148 pounds.

Haha I guess if I was working on a farm as a cowboy or down the mines I would eat more.

That would happen to me if I ate 1000-1500 calories.

Do we eat to live or live to eat?

 

[Aleeri]

5’6, 30inch waist, 48 inch chest, ratio of 1.6, early 30s age, I think those macro calculators say 1800-2000 calories for me to maintain weight at around 148 pounds.

Haha I guess if I was working on a farm as a cowboy or down the mines I would eat more.

That would happen to me if I ate 1000-1500 calories.

Do we eat to live or live to eat?

I think if you're not active that amount of calories sounds about right, 1800-2000. When I am active as in gym or sports I am usually around 3000.

 

[Herbie]

I think if you're not active that amount of calories sounds about right, 1800-2000. When I am active as in gym or sports I am usually around 3000.

Yeah im not active in that sense.

 

[fradon]

I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to my weekday diets (because work) so I am always trying to tweak it to cover all my nutritional bases without spending too much time on preparation.

I have been experimenting with the majority of calories from milk for a while and went ok but became expensive because I am in Asia. So I reduced the amount and added casein protein powder to complement (one high in calcium). I noticed an improvement in temperature doing this.

I now just experimented a short period with the majority of calories from orange juice instead and this is where I hit the wall.

I do not know what makes it different from milk but I get adrenaline symptoms from too much OJ when consuming little other solid foods, even when consuming enough calories. Cold hands and feet, brain fog and a general shitty feeling.

Example, the other day I had 4 cups of OJ, 1 cup Chocolate and then ate 1kg Papaya and got a really shitty feeling. Urine completely clear, refractometer shows overhydrated.

How do you guys manage this type of diet that's mostly liquid for some? From my experience, it doesn't seem very natural for the body.

How come Ray Peat even recommend this, like judging from Matt Stones writings as well it seems like many people have problems with blood volume.


I am now considering switching to milk with lots of honey and casein protein powder as the bulk of calories.

this is where plain white sugar can help. avoid the liquid and just eat the sugar straight if you just need the calories. i only use the sugar when my digestion is slow and it does boost it .

oj has a lot of folate and for some people folate can increase methylation and for others in can decrease it. if you notice excitablity after OJ then it may increase your mehtylation.

 

[stevrd]

I think that eating an all or mostly liquid diet is one of the most unusual things that us Peat followers do. I myself have tried the milk and OJ thing here and there, but like most of us this didn't pan out well in the long run. People take Dr. Peat out of context with his quote about how 2 quarts of milk, 1 quart of OJ and a couple eggs a day can supply most of the nutrients one needs. I don't take this to literally mean that he thinks this is all we should eat, especially for long periods of time. It may provide the minimum nutrients, but it's missing many important aspects of nutrition and physical health. Not only from a social eating perspective, but also from a sensory/reward and digestive health perspective. An all liquid diet lacks palatability, the hedonic reward you get when you eat a tasty meal.

Most diets fail because they lack either flexibility, diversity, or palatability. Or all three of these things combined.

By limiting ourselves to just a few foods we are setting ourselves up for failure from the beginning. Combine this with the fact that the only few foods we limit ourselves are in liquid form, and you get a recipe for disaster. We need to be using our digestive system in order to maintain digestive strength. This means eating solid foods that our stomachs need to release large amounts of hydrochloric acid and enzymes to break down. This means forming boluses from both digested and undigested matter, which cause the muscles of our ailimentary tract to work harder through peristalsis, causing them to maintain their fitness/function.

One study in rats with alzheimer's showed that eating a soft diet decreases dopamine release and learning ability, whereas the rats that ate hard diets had increased dopamine release and improved learning ability: Soft-diet feeding decreases dopamine release and impairs aversion learning in Alzheimer model rats. - PubMed - NCBI

A lot of people get caught up in nutritionism, or the fine details, when it comes to nutrients, vitamins/minerals, etc... But at the same time they often neglect the many benefits that a highly palatable and flexible diet can bring. I'm just as guilty in getting wrapped up in the fine details as anybody else, but this brings on dogmatism, which inhibits learning. In theory a diet of milk, OJ, and eggs should bring about an improved metabolic rate. But in practice it's a different story completely, and I have read dozens of accounts of people who tried this and failed. I don't think it's a coincidence, or that they simply were "doing it wrong." I think they failed to account for variables unrelated to nutritional content, like food temperature, palatability, frequency of eating, diet flexibility, social aspects etc... Why do they fail to account for these? I think it's because nutritionism is such an easy story to fall for. If we can simply control the nutrient content of our diets, limit the bad nutrients, eat a lot of the good nutrients, then good things will happen. But it doesn't work that way. There is more to nutrition and health than nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. The physical state of food matters, just as the temperature of food does.

For example, the specific dynamic action of food is higher after ingesting a solid meal, as opposed to a liquid meal: Source: Metabolic and cardiovascular responses to liquid and solid test meals | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

Eating hot foods and drinking hot liquids probably lowers adrenaline. I don't have a study to back this up, but anything that makes us warmer has a tendency to lower adrenaline/cortisol, and subsequently free up the energy needed to produce youthful steroids. Wearing warm clothes makes our fats more saturated. Remember the study Peat referenced about the pigs wearing sweaters?

I know I'm going on a tangent here, but I hope this helps some people realize what they need to do. Cold foods will make you cold, hot foods will make you warm. Anything that makes you cold decreases metabolism. Too much fluids is part of it, but also fluids that are too cold. If you do choose to drink lots of fluids, it would be a good idea to heat them up. I try to do this as often as possible. I almost exclusively drink all my fluids hot in the colder months, with the exception of OJ. All my milk, coffee, water, etc is warm. I eat a lot of solid food, but only food that agrees with me.

Anyway, to the OP, I hope this helps. You need to play around with your foods, liquids, temperatures, etc to see what works best for you. But all in all, when in doubt, don't do anything that directly lowers your body temperature. If this means cutting back on fluids, or at least switching to warm/hot fluids, then by all means do this.

 

[Blossom]

I think that eating an all or mostly liquid diet is one of the most unusual things that us Peat followers do. I myself have tried the milk and OJ thing here and there, but like most of us this didn't pan out well in the long run. People take Dr. Peat out of context with his quote about how 2 quarts of milk, 1 quart of OJ and a couple eggs a day can supply most of the nutrients one needs. I don't take this to literally mean that he thinks this is all we should eat, especially for long periods of time. It may provide the minimum nutrients, but it's missing many important aspects of nutrition and physical health. Not only from a social eating perspective, but also from a sensory/reward and digestive health perspective. An all liquid diet lacks palatability, the hedonic reward you get when you eat a tasty meal.

Most diets fail because they lack either flexibility, diversity, or palatability. Or all three of these things combined.

By limiting ourselves to just a few foods we are setting ourselves up for failure from the beginning. Combine this with the fact that the only few foods we limit ourselves are in liquid form, and you get a recipe for disaster. We need to be using our digestive system in order to maintain digestive strength. This means eating solid foods that our stomachs need to release large amounts of hydrochloric acid and enzymes to break down. This means forming boluses from both digested and undigested matter, which cause the muscles of our ailimentary tract to work harder through peristalsis, causing them to maintain their fitness/function.

One study in rats with alzheimer's showed that eating a soft diet decreases dopamine release and learning ability, whereas the rats that ate hard diets had increased dopamine release and improved learning ability: Soft-diet feeding decreases dopamine release and impairs aversion learning in Alzheimer model rats. - PubMed - NCBI

A lot of people get caught up in nutritionism, or the fine details, when it comes to nutrients, vitamins/minerals, etc... But at the same time they often neglect the many benefits that a highly palatable and flexible diet can bring. I'm just as guilty in getting wrapped up in the fine details as anybody else, but this brings on dogmatism, which inhibits learning. In theory a diet of milk, OJ, and eggs should bring about an improved metabolic rate. But in practice it's a different story completely, and I have read dozens of accounts of people who tried this and failed. I don't think it's a coincidence, or that they simply were "doing it wrong." I think they failed to account for variables unrelated to nutritional content, like food temperature, palatability, frequency of eating, diet flexibility, social aspects etc... Why do they fail to account for these? I think it's because nutritionism is such an easy story to fall for. If we can simply control the nutrient content of our diets, limit the bad nutrients, eat a lot of the good nutrients, then good things will happen. But it doesn't work that way. There is more to nutrition and health than nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. The physical state of food matters, just as the temperature of food does.

For example, the specific dynamic action of food is higher after ingesting a solid meal, as opposed to a liquid meal: Source: Metabolic and cardiovascular responses to liquid and solid test meals | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

Eating hot foods and drinking hot liquids probably lowers adrenaline. I don't have a study to back this up, but anything that makes us warmer has a tendency to lower adrenaline/cortisol, and subsequently free up the energy needed to produce youthful steroids. Wearing warm clothes makes our fats more saturated. Remember the study Peat referenced about the pigs wearing sweaters?

I know I'm going on a tangent here, but I hope this helps some people realize what they need to do. Cold foods will make you cold, hot foods will make you warm. Anything that makes you cold decreases metabolism. Too much fluids is part of it, but also fluids that are too cold. If you do choose to drink lots of fluids, it would be a good idea to heat them up. I try to do this as often as possible. I almost exclusively drink all my fluids hot in the colder months, with the exception of OJ. All my milk, coffee, water, etc is warm. I eat a lot of solid food, but only food that agrees with me.

Anyway, to the OP, I hope this helps. You need to play around with your foods, liquids, temperatures, etc to see what works best for you. But all in all, when in doubt, don't do anything that directly lowers your body temperature. If this means cutting back on fluids, or at least switching to warm/hot fluids, then by all means do this.

Great post @stevrd.

 

[Aleeri]

@stevrd awesome post, thanks a lot for this!