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TocoVit - Liquid Vitamin E From Wheat Germ Oil

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, May 6, 2016.

  1. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I don't think such a high dose is needed. The studies on aromatase inhibition or estrogen receptor antagonism show doses around 700 IU - 800 IU are enough. Unless the Schute brothers found that higher doses are needed for some type of special effect that lower doses cannot provide.
     
  2. Dhair

    Dhair Member

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    Soo.. no more squalene or lanesterol in this product? I was under the impression that trace amounts of those compounds contributed significantly to the uniquely anti-estrogenic and pro-metabolic effects of this product. Didn't you hint at that yourself? Obviously, I don't care as long as the effect is the same. Just asking. Have you personally tried the old and new versions on yourself and compared them?
     
  3. bzmazu

    bzmazu Member

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    I'll be missing the original taste and smell...just like I miss the old Lapodin smell...both of these smelled great to me...yet I smell nothing of Androsterone?...I must have a weird smeller.
     
  4. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    The squalene is not antiestrogenic, it is a cholesterol/steroid precursor. Lanosterols is protein aggregation inhibitor, and we have that as a separate product. You may be thinking of phytol, which is an aromatase inhibitor present in Gonadin.
    The main anti-estrogenic effects are from alpha tocopherol, which has gotten some bad rep lately but it is the only isomer shown to act as estrogen receptor antagonist. The gamma, delta and beta tocopherols are mostly LOX inhibitors, which is a great benefit but not really directly related to estrogen. Those are still present in TocoVit, but the alpha tocopherol is the most dominant fraction.
    I actually get stronger androgenic effects from the new version of TocoVit. Also, unlike the previous version this one seems to improve endurance which matches with the other studies on effects of policosanols.
     
  5. ebs

    ebs Member

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    What's the shelf life of this product? I bought it summer last year but haven't used it much as the lowest dose seems to cause some agitation. I've kept it in a closet away from sunlight and on room temperature.

    @haidut
     
  6. SOMO

    SOMO Member

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    I'm still not 100% sold on the safety of TOPICAL administration of PUFAs or other unsaturated oils.

    There is evidence that fatty acids can be absorbed through the skin. Obviously this Vitamin E product is one such product.

    Any reason I shouldn't be concerned about applying PUFAs or unsaturates to the skin when olive oil is commonly used as a vehicle for Estrogen patches?
     
  7. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Zeus, in my opinion it was a right move on your part to refine it more, I could tell right away that the product was more fluid. It's probably less alergenic this way as well.

    A Review of Stability Issues Associated with Vitamins in Parenteral Nutrition
    Clinical adsorption and photodegradation of the fatsoluble vitamins A and E - ScienceDirect

    "The aim of our study was to investigate:
    - whether a lipid emulsion (Intralipid 20% (r) Kabi-Pharmacia, Stockholm, Sweden) provides protection for the added vitamins;
    - whether routinely-used protection from light (red plastic bags) has any influence on the amount of vitamins reaching the patient [total parenteral nutrition]:
    - whether blue light with a maximum emission spectrum at 450nm, used in the treatment of hyperbilirubinaemia, has any influence on vitamin administration;"

    "The study was carried out at our neonatal intensive care unit, under standard light. humidity and temperature conditions."

    "Vitamin E, however, is protected from reduction [decrease] by the red plastic bag, which was shown by this study to provide as much protection as the IV bag. Data concerning photolysis of vitamin E is, to our knowledge. not available. Logically (compared with vitamin A). vitamin E would be most vulnerable at its absorption maximum 285-305 (max 292) nm and these wavelengths are well within the protected range. These theoretical data concerning vitamin E are in line with our findings that it is protected by the red plastic bag. This indicates that vitamin E is not as dependent on the infusion rate or the surface area available for adsorption as vitamin A. Vitamin E is degraded by light and is adsorbed to the administration system to a lesser extent than vitamin A. Adsorption to the tubing seems to be the major problem with vitamin A, a result supported by the previous findings of Shenai et al (4, 5). The fact that the major decrease in vitamin levels takes place during the first 3 h also supports the adsorption theory (4, 5). The losses seen in our series are somewhat less than those reported by Hartline, who found that approximately two thirds of the vitamin content was lost from their solutions."

    "The results from this study. showing that the best protection afforded for vitamins is an IV bag containing the daily requirements, are in agreement with those from studies, concerning other vitamins such as riboflavin (8). If separate bottles are used. the one containing the vitamins should be infused at a higher rate than the other solutions and the recommended protection from light in the form of red plastic bags should be used in order to preserve at least the vitamin E. Only minor losses of vitamins occur after the first 3 h. The routine replacement of bottles at 12h intervals. as recommended by Shenai, seems therefore to be insufficient for the supply to the patient of adequate amounts of vitamins A and E. provided that recommended doses are given.
    In summary, there appear to be two methods of providing the patient with adequate amounts of vitamins. Either the solutions containing the vitamins should be given as a bolus. i.e. not kept in bottles for more than 1 h, unless they are given in an IV bag; or the recommended doses and infusion times should be adapted to make up for the expected loss."​

    Your product must be way less susceptible because people won't leave it exposed for an hour and (unlike the study) it's plain vit E without interaction with other nutrients that are also prone to be damaged by light.
    But, if you want to be sure..
    TocoGuit
     
  8. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    FDA regulations mandate that all liquid products be marketed with no more than 12 months of shelf life. Other than that I am not aware of anything spoiling in the product but I think the 12 month rule is a good rule of thumb as well.
     
  9. ebs

    ebs Member

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    So the vitamin E isn't that prone to oxidation? I guess I have to start using it soon then.
     
  10. SOMO

    SOMO Member

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    I think RP says antioxidant used to mean something different when the term was first thrown around, but Vit E qualifies as an antioxidant.

    You would expect an antioxidant to be resistant to oxidation, which Vit E is.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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  12. Jake sullivan

    Jake sullivan Member

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    @haidut I have I actually tried tocovit before and very impressed, well done in forming this supplement and contributing nothing but positivity to the peat forum, I do just have one quick question regarding the initial post on tocovit, you did mention it had some of the fats likely being (unsaturated) removed and what was left over was the policosacanols. Now with that being said usually when purchasing vitamin E products I like to look at the fat to tocopherol ratio so for example I was wondering if it was possible if you could provide us roughly with the amount of fat in grams per serving of tocovit so if 1 serving is 20 or 30 drops I cant remember what you said but how much grams of fat would the equal to roughly, and based on the amount is there any way to determine roughly how much of that is PUFA eg. 0.1g - 0.4g etc just because I like some on here passionately avoid PUFA even in the presence of vitamin E if possible I try to keep PUFA below 1 gram around the 0.5g marker but with that being said I was very pleased with the results of tocovit, and if it is possible to provide a fat analysis that'd be great thankyou for all your work and support on the forum.
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Currently, there is no PUFA in TocoVit, not even a gram per the entire bottle. The only thing in there are the mixed tocopherols and policosanols plus the MCT we add to make it less viscous and able to flow out of the bottle. I think there is about 9mg-12mg policosanols per ml of liquid in TocoVit.
     
  14. Jake sullivan

    Jake sullivan Member

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    @haidut really! that's absolutely incredible! im honestly impressed! then in my opinion that makes tocovit probably the best on the market because the biggest worry I always had with vitamin E supplements is I liked to do a little higher end dosages most of the time when endotoxin is really bad for I feel like ***t so the one thing I always worried about was the considerable pufa amount in most vitamin E supplements if you say there is almost none or none at all im honestly impressed and I thank you personally for creating such an amazing product well done!
     
  15. Jake sullivan

    Jake sullivan Member

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    @haidut after hearing that I also just placed my next order for it to be shipped out 5 minutes ago! so thankyou for providing the specific product information! id like to take tocovit most of the way through my PUFA depletion just to make things easier because the pufa is killing me on its way out, its pretty rough patch but just gotta keep flushing it out of my system
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Thanks for the nice words! Keep me posted on TocoVot effects.
     
  17. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Wheat of the germs has plenty of selenium and manganese. Do you think this is relevant for those that are supplementing wheat germ oil?

    Trace Elements in Human et Animal Nutrition (vol. 2) - Walter Mertz
    "Two major steps forward have been made in our understanding of the mode of action of selenium and its relationship to vitamin Ε since liver necrosis in rats and ED [exudative diathesis] in chicks were first shown to be prevented by small amounts of selenite[.] The first of these was the demonstration of an essential requirement for dietary selenium by chicks and rats, in the presence of adequate vitamin E. The second major advance was the discovery that GSH-Px is a selenium-containing enzyme with an activity in the blood and tissues of rats and chicks directly related to the selenium level in the diet. These important findings gave a great impetus to the antioxidant role for selenium compounds fostered by Tappel (415) but open to some doubt through the researches of Green and Diplock and their group and others (135)."

    --
    This thought appeared during a conversation with one of our coaches on the subject of vitamin A:
    It wasn't long ago that I realized there's an arrow next to the last page of long threads that actually has a function!
     
  18. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    It is possible, I need to ask the bulk vendor (or do the tests with our lab) if they have removed the minerals from the final product. In theory they should be still there as the extraction process only removes larges molecules like oils and glycerides.
     
  19. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    @Amazoniac, @haidut,
    Selenium and manganese are water soluble minerals, don't you guys think that it's very unlikely to find significant, if any, amount of those minerals in the product?
    Eating wheat germ in its crude form or making a water extract of it should be another story.
     
  20. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I would be surprised as well because it is too clear to have preserved those minerals.
     
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