Tianeptine Substitutes?

Terma

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This might be subjective: has anyone who has used tia ever found a non-opioid substance that comes close?

I had to stop tianeptine completely. It's relatively fantastic but with my personal physiology it wasn't sustainable. I can only use it twice a week and it's not enough for a crutch and it sits there on the shelf and laughs at me.

At present the best and most potent things I use are 5a-DHP and PRL-8-53. I can reach maybe 70% of tianeptine benefits with them, but have to use them alternate days or every 3 days. I use moderate caffeine, but I get side effects from prolonged caffeine use, which I'm reeling from this week. Amino acids sometimes help quite a bit but inconsistently. Daily I take tyrosine (sometimes with BCAA), lysine, transdermal magnesium, riboflavin, RDA iodine, some taurine with every meal, A/D/K/E, some others.

Things I have already tried (some help but not enough):
* Adamantane (not bad at all, but not sustainable enough either)
* Pregnenolone/progesterone/dhea/androsterone
* Piracetam/aniracetam/oxaloridiculoracetam
* metergoline/ritanserin/lisuride
* cyproheptadine/benadryl (ugh)
* phenibut/benzos
* aspirin
* thyroid products (very little effect)
* NAC/ALA/coq10/methylene blue
* phospholipids
* other nootropics not worth mentioning
* all vitamins and minerals
* every diet permutation in the world
* every permutation of the above substances

Things I would like to try (and know how they compare) but can't:
* NSI-189
* ketamine
 

Terma

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I know this is a tall order, so maybe this will give a better idea: today I woke up feeling like hell, something I ate last night wrecked my gut and had that endotoxin-like body flareup and felt like no sleep despite sleep.

So in desperation I chugged this within a few hours:
* 5a-DHP (15 drop)
* adamantane (10 drop)
* caffeine (300mg)
* aspirin (300mg)
* methylene blue (1mg)
* magnesium (?)
* benfothiamine (300mg), riboflavin (?)
* bcaa/tyrosine/phenylanaline
* tons of carbs
* (no PRL, doesn't mix with adamantane or gut problems)

All this combined gave maybe 75% of what tianeptine could do on a day like this.

The Adamantane does have somewhat a tianeptine feel to it - I'd say it's the closest, 5a-DHP aside - but more disassociative and hazy (less dopaminergic?), and several hours in it sometimes backfires.
 

Terma

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What side effects do you get?
Abnormally bad withdrawal, even from low doses and short courses, even from sulphate (at first I tolerated sulphate form better but it got progressively worse). Awake for days on end and endless restless legs. I haven't heard many people get it this bad, it's a me thing. I know there's "no free lunch", but this one is disproportionately cruel.
 

Makrosky

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Abnormally bad withdrawal, even from low doses and short courses, even from sulphate (at first I tolerated sulphate form better but it got progressively worse). Awake for days on end and endless restless legs. I haven't heard many people get it this bad, it's a me thing. I know there's "no free lunch", but this one is disproportionately cruel.
I have free lunch with tianeptine btw :):
 

Terma

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Has anyone tried Bromantane? How does it compare with Tianeptine (specifically this)? Forgot that one...
 
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Lurker

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Have you tried activated charcoal? That's my first response to gut/anger problems.

I'm sorry if I missed it but I didn't see what effects you were getting from the tianeptine. I haven't used it myself. I've tried a few nootropics and the aniracitam seem to have some mental sharpening and anxiolytic properties. I like the noopept also (developed to help Russians from the mental deterioration of alcohol). From what I understand they are anticholinergic which seems to be generally in line with Peat thinking. Overall, they weren't something I wanted to do long term. I've tended to lean more toward "natural" substances.

You mentioned taurine with meals. I thought it worked better by itself. I usually take it at bedtime.
 

Terma

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Have you tried activated charcoal? That's my first response to gut/anger problems.

I'm sorry if I missed it but I didn't see what effects you were getting from the tianeptine. I haven't used it myself. I've tried a few nootropics and the aniracitam seem to have some mental sharpening and anxiolytic properties. I like the noopept also (developed to help Russians from the mental deterioration of alcohol). From what I understand they are anticholinergic which seems to be generally in line with Peat thinking. Overall, they weren't something I wanted to do long term. I've tended to lean more toward "natural" substances.

You mentioned taurine with meals. I thought it worked better by itself. I usually take it at bedtime.
Haven't warmed up to charcoal. Good reminder though. I'm doing glutinous rice.

Tianeptine did everything: near perfect gut, better temps and extremities, dopamine and drive, zero anxiety, immunity to stress, slight dumbening while taking it that has to be NMDA antagonism or an anticholinergic effect, more physical energy and endurance, less body backlash from bad foods and activity, better tolerance to other health problems. Negatives (while taking): less deep sleep, didn't help socialization.

I did the racetams and noopept. For me they don't come close. Taurine either, even 10g in single dose barely noticeable.
 

Terma

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For the record I actually for the first time in years been making headway on my gut in the last two weeks, without Tia.

Surprisingly Adamantane is a strong contributor. Don't know what it's doing (anticholinergic, 5-HT3, etc.), and I don't like all its effects, but it clearly works for this. So I keep trying to make it work.

I started adding glutinous rice and stools have improved.

Not perfect, but significant. I may try adding fresh ground black pepper next, since it has opioid loperamide-like effects (Pharmacological basis for the medicinal use of black pepper and piperine in gastrointestinal disorders. - PubMed - NCBI), and it helped in the past.
 

jyb

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Your list is very long yet doesn't have cascara. You might be missing out. For gut and sleep, cascara comes to mind.
 

Terma

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Thanks but I thought cascara was a laxative, no? I'm on the loose stools/diarrhea side.
 

jyb

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Thanks but I thought cascara was a laxative, no? I'm on the loose stools/diarrhea side.

I take it in small quantities that don't affect stools. It's possible it still speeds up transit, but I don't realise it and that's not why I take it. I don't know how useful it would be in your situation.
 

Terma

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Maybe, never crossed my mind. I have paradoxical reactions frequently so everything devolves into trial and error. Guess that's almost the reverse of black pepper (stimulates transit in low dose and helps diarrhea in high dose).
 

passivity

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Maybe memantine or seleginile (not that peaty though,
"Selegiline is partly metabolized to levomethamphetamine, one of the two enantiomers of methamphetamine, in vivo.[24] A characteristic metabolic pattern was noted, exemplified by a ratio of L-methamphetamine to L-amphetamine of about 2.8.[25] These stereoisomers are moderately less psychoactive and have lower abuse potential compared to their D-isomers.[26][27]

This metabolic pathway may also cause persons taking selegiline to test positive for amphetamine and or methamphetamine on drug screening tests.")

edit:
7/5/17


Q: What are your thoughts on Selegiline?

RP: It’s safer than many antidepressants, it depends on the nature of the problem, though.


Selegiline Experiences
 
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Terma

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Thanks I have not tried and forgot about selegiline. Don't know selank. I'm curious if you guys have any personal experiences in comparing them with Tianeptine?
 

passivity

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I haven't tried them myself, but check this thread:

I have tried memantine. Me and my friend ordered some online and started using it early in December.

We both started with 10mg and dosed throughout the night, I made it to 40mg that night. That first night we both felt amazing an alive, we both experienced profound epiphanies about life. My ability to feel pleasure stayed the same but I just felt different and better.

We expected it to be pretty weak but it was surprisingly strong.

I wasn't able to get good sleep for a couple of days afterwards, and I kept redosing like a fool.

At about the 4th day, after not getting any good sleep since starting, I was hanging out with the same friend, and took another dose of 10mg mixed with a small amount of diclazepam, and just felt off. I ended up leaving my friends house to try and get good sleep.

I went home and basically had a panic attack. That never happens to me, and I've never been so scared from a drug. I felt like I was gonna have a heart attack. I was in a dark room and my vision was weird af. I would fall asleep for 10 minutes and wake up because I heard a loud bang (there was no bang, auditory hallucination), and with this bang I would grab my chest in fear of heart attack.

At some point that night I took a shower and literally couldn't feel the temperature of the water. My face felt like it does when you're really drunk. I couldn't feel anything on my skin.

I ended up sleeping and only redosing a couple times more after giving it a break, in hopes of getting the same good effects.

I took around 100mg+ over the course of 5 days.

My other friend did around the same dosing, but he weighs way more than me, and I am very skinny already.

Ray has talked about memantine, and apparently the adamantane group of molecules (which memantine belongs to) structure water.

Memantine is an NMDA antagonist, but at low doses it blocks abnormal NMDA activity and thus calcium influx, which can kill neurons. It's also a D2 agonist, Nach7 antagonist, and 5HT-3 antagonist.

Me and my friend both noticed that ourselves and eachother looked waaayyy more healthy. Our teeth and skin and hair looked way better. We also noticed improvements in bowel health.

Memantine, as a D2 agonist with a long as **** half-life (60-80 hours), will destroy your sleep.

Low Dose Dextromethorphan As An Alternative To SSRI's?
 
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@passivity

I wrote a super long reply about the way NMDA antagonists can help reset the sensation of pleasure, but then I realized you weren't even tagging me.

I thought I'd say something though: memantine is not something to play with.

It is a D2 agonist that lasts forever in your system. It can really **** things up.

I had ticks for months after my idiotic dose escalation. It was never really that bad it was still present.

I feel like I have been changed by what I did with memantine.

Especially because my brain is still developing somewhat, I think I might have some weird dopamine hypersensitivity now. That's what happens in "adolescent" rats when they are exposed to dopaminergic drugs.
 

Terma

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Yeah skipping memantine, no access anyhow. I know about it and estimated it's unlikely to be what I need and adamantane was close enough (I had that one down, except the surprise gut effects). I planned to get bromantane instead.

Ah selank = semax, put that off due to shipping issues et al.
 
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