Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

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bloom

bloom

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Oh man I even see how that's plausible... I read somewhere (and I'm relooking ) how Fin mimics something else we needed and when we cut it out, that negative feedback loop never picked up for us... I still believe , along the lines you're thinking, that the ppl with the previous undiagnosed (or even clinical) anxiety issues suffered the most... since only a few percentage of ppl suffer such anxiety issues and only a few percentage of those use Fin and suffer PFS once off... not on , except the 'expected & accepted' trade off of 'potential low' libido... etc ... as we all KNOW now fin is horrific for such side affects amongst others... GABA, etc... and why xanax at night helps return nocturnal erections ...

Still, the 'cross the streams' idea (Original Ghostbusters reference) of doing something against all sense , using a low dose of fin... may, on paper hold merit, but I wouldn't risk it whatsoever...
Xanax brings back your nocturnal erections?
 

TubZy

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Lurked here a bit and thought I'd share my journey for which I've been keeping a log on Reddit. Oddly enough, "bloom" and I had thoughts regarding the implication of 5aR around the same time, with my post just a day before. I do not have the honed intelligence or incredible memory of most of you, with my musings being very abstract and conceptual... and in some places probably very wrong. Most of you have an enormously detailed grasp of the biology behind this, while I can only push around things from the "big picture" perspective. However, I have made recent, significant progress with Butea, and although I have ordered 5a-DHP and Pansterone, I have chosen to wholly throw my efforts into timing and dosing experiments with this specific herb.

Anyway, it is a verbose read, and as mentioned, you will likely find errors in my thinking. I simply do not have the knowledge that most of you possess, and thanks to our friend "brain fog," I have had to adapt in other ways in order to try and tackle our problem... mainly through excruciatingly slow trial and error. Here is my log, and I plan on continuing my current regimen, focusing solely on Butea in combination with a few other things I mention:

Possible Remediation for PFS Sufferers • r/tressless

p.s. You will have to read my updates in reverse for them to make sense.

My buddy who owns the site in my sig wrote about butea before @1kT

I read thru some of the stuff on reddit. What dosage were you doing for the butea?
 

JoeKool

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Alprazolam or Bromazepam - If you have stopped finasteride recently, and feel that your metabolism is in a state of chronic anxiety (insomnia, poor sleep, panic attacks, irritability, mood swings, extreme anxiety, restlessness, difficult concentration - a set of symptoms known as post-finasteride crash), the use of one of these medications can help. Finasteride blocks the conversion of progesterone to allopregnanolone, which has a calming effect in the brain. Allopregnanolone acts by modulating a neurotransmitter called GABA-A. Therefore, the use of finasteride can affect the level of GABA-A in brain. Since these drugs act on GABA replacement, they are beneficial to these patients. Furthermore, by acting on the anxiety and improving sleep quality, the use of one of these drugs will help reverse another problem common in some men with Post-Finasteride Syndrome. Many complain their penises display a much smaller size and more rigid consistency when flacid than before finasteride (known as shrinkage in Propeciahelp forum). It is a dramatic change and usually patients who are in this state after finasteride usage also present lack of nocturnal erections and smaller erections. It is important to break this cycle, because if a man is not having nocturnal erections for a long time, this can lead to structure problems in the penis. When one of these medication is used to treat the post-finasteride crash, penis returns to normal size and consistency when flacid. The quality of sleep is restored, so this will also favour the reestablishment of normal nocturnal erections. It is really important to stop the crash symptoms and these medications work well in the matter.
It should be used for a short period (few months) and only if necessary, under the supervision of a psychiatrist. The withdrawal has to be gradual.

What is Post-Finasteride Syndrome?: How to treat
 

stumpus

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My buddy who owns the site in my sig wrote about butea before @1kT

I read thru some of the stuff on reddit. What dosage were you doing for the butea?

That is exactly the site from which I got the Butea recommendation, but I could not find specifics as to claim of actually increasing 5aR, only DHT. I went with it, anyway, and picked Butea. I guess really though, if anything increases DHT, if it's not increasing testosterone, then from where else would it come? Didn't think of that before.

Increase 5 Alpha Reductase and DHT Naturally by 862%

So, Marcel was definitely the keystone to my current experiment (I just edited to give credit).

I am currently using 500mg upon waking, along with 37.5mg of sublingual pregnenolone. 15 minutes later, I inject 10mg of testosterone. Then I take another 500mg midafternoon along with 12.5mg of sublingual preg. I will probably be ramping up to three capsules in the next few days.
 
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TubZy

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That is exactly the site from which I got the Butea recommendation, but I could not find specifics as to claim of actually increasing 5aR, only DHT. I went with it, anyway, and picked Butea. I guess really though, if anything increases DHT, if it's not increasing testosterone, then from where else would it come? Didn't think of that before.

Increase 5 Alpha Reductase and DHT Naturally by 862%

So, Marcel was definitely the keystone to my current experiment (I just edited to give credit).

I am currently using 500mg upon waking, along with 37.5mg of sublingual pregnenolone. 15 minutes later, I inject 10mg of testosterone. Then I take another 500mg midafternoon along with 12.5mg of sublingual preg. I will probably be ramping up to three capsules in the next few days.

Yeah, Marcel and I talked about this a few times. He mega dosed it before, he could probably share his experience. You notice and improvement in mental function with the butea? That is the last area I can't seem to fully knock out yet.
 

stumpus

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Yeah, Marcel and I talked about this a few times. He mega dosed it before, he could probably share his experience. You notice and improvement in mental function with the butea? That is the last area I can't seem to fully knock out yet.

It's hard to know, given how subtle and slow my decline. It's one of those situations where you've experienced something for so long, you don't even realize how bad it was until it gets better. I will say that nootropics have helped, and I especially like intranasal insulin. However, I do not yet think the Butea experiment has influenced any mental ability.
 

TubZy

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It's hard to know, given how subtle and slow my decline. It's one of those situations where you've experienced something for so long, you don't even realize how bad it was until it gets better. I will say that nootropics have helped, and I especially like intranasal insulin. However, I do not yet think the Butea experiment has influenced any mental ability.

Ah, okay cool, keep us posted.

Looks like inosine influences GABA (A).
Adenosine-to-Inosine RNA Editing Affects Trafficking of the γ-Aminobutyric Acid Type A (GABAA) Receptor

Thnks @Meatbag @haidut
 

Aflac

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The infamous PFS crash. Guys go off Fin return to normal for a little while, then develop PFS. What's interesting to note is that a lot of guys with PFS claim to get better when they start a low dose of Fin. So we have guys who get worse when they go on TRT/Proviron, then get better when they go on Fin? How strange. What's interesting to note is that Fin is a powerful inhibitor of 5ar2 and 5ar3. But NOT 5ar1. 5ar2 is not found in the brain however 5ar1 and 5ar3 are. From wikipeida

This is going way out on a limb, it could be that when you inhibit the 5ar2 and 3 enzyme the body compensates by trying to upregulate 5ar. 5ar1 is not inhibited so the upregulation brings 5ar1 to relatively normal levels in the brain. This could explain why guys with PFS get better on a low dose of Fin. Just a thought.
I dont think its a coincidence that so many of the metabolites of the 5ar are powerful allosteric modulators of the GABA receptor, and that so many of us dramatically improve on GABA enhancing substances. And with the study Haidut mentioned which found valium increases the 5ar in the Diencephalon by more than two fold, it makes me think that stimulation of the GABA receptor plays a huge role in regulation of 5ar levels in the brain.

Does the crash presentation suggest autoimmune disease, circadian clock issues, neurosteroid disturbance, general immune system regulation, some other nervous system disturbance/damage? Truth is we will never know unless research finds an answer.

The fact that there are so many of us that experience this exact presentation of the 'infamous crash' (onset of symptoms, followed by temporary recovery, then a return of permanent symptoms), means that there is without a doubt some common mechanism that COULD be discovered via research of our condition. Whether or not we can raise enough resources, money, scientific interest, talent,... to discover and prove the cause/mechanism behind this is the question. I will surely work to accomplish this as long as I am alive.

I have ideas on how to make our cause part of a larger cause / epidemic and therefore potentially secure the interest and funding that will be needed for research. The problem is that while there are many finasteride victims out there, the number of people suffering is still probably relatively too small to garner enough interest/money to research the condition intensely. However our experience with finasteride is just one example among MANY, of pharmaceutical side effects harming previously healthy people. If we can start advocating on behalf of this larger group we will have more support/larger numbers. Then we can make things happen for all people negatively impacted by dangerous pharmaceutical drugs (including PFS victims). (Does such an advocacy group already exist??)

I experienced this exact crash after only ONE dose of finasteride. And my symptoms are as severe as anyone ease's I guarantee you that. This is not dose dependent. Everyone presents to different degrees because we all have unique genetic weaknesses and pr-existing problems. But the root cause / mechanism of injury is what we need to research and figuring that out would obviously influence potential treatment options / development. Could be a biologic drug against an antibody that is out of control or re-establishing allopregnenalone concentrations in the hypothalamus or whatever. Until we know the problem we won't get the solution.
 

Aflac

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My sleep is fundamentally different. I have significantly reduced sleep pressure. Wake me up after 2 hours and don't have the need/drive to sleep. Before finasteride if I didn't get at least 7 or so hours I would sleep hard the next night. Not so anymore. Sometimes I get decent sleep but nothing like the deep restful sleep I used to have. Obviously brain chemistry / something about my nervous system is off. Don't react to alcohol anymore. Organisms are weak. I can't make a muscle and hold it for very long, it gets soft while I'm still trying to make a muscle. Sorry for the rant. Bad night of sleep. I do have semi good days though. Usually they follow the bad days
 

TubZy

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My sleep is fundamentally different. I have significantly reduced sleep pressure. Wake me up after 2 hours and don't have the need/drive to sleep. Before finasteride if I didn't get at least 7 or so hours I would sleep hard the next night. Not so anymore. Sometimes I get decent sleep but nothing like the deep restful sleep I used to have. Obviously brain chemistry / something about my nervous system is off. Don't react to alcohol anymore. Organisms are weak. I can't make a muscle and hold it for very long, it gets soft while I'm still trying to make a muscle. Sorry for the rant. Bad night of sleep. I do have semi good days though. Usually they follow the bad days

it is all GABA and allopreg related regarding the sleep part.

Inosine also modulates the receptor which is even better, this is pretty cool.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...diazepine_binding_site_of_the_GABAA_receptors
 

JoeKool

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For sleep, before bed, i'm using 200mg L-Theanine, 4G Glycine and 750Mg GABA... I know the GABA doesn't really pass the blood/brain barrier but some ppl benefit from it so I added it.
 

Cymatic

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Yep already on that TubZy, Glycine is great, it does help. However the dosage has to be very specific the study states stimulation of 5ar by glycine at 1uM and 35um. I have found Glycine very hit and miss, very hard to get the appropriate dose. It also states that concentrations of 70uM and 140uM, mainly accelerates 3a hsd activity, I seem to get worse on certain doses of glycine. It's also interesting to note that this is the theoretical cause of post-SSRI sexual dysfunction, increased 3a hsd activity leading to rapid DHT conversion to 3a-androstanediol. Anyway it seems like the real way forward for a lot of us PFS guys is to focus on 5ar and the brain. I'm going to search for things which specifically increase 5ar in the brain. A lot of Psychiatric drugs do it.

I don't want to detract from this thread's topic. I believe I am suffering from PSSD and was wondering where you found this theory? If this were to be true, could PFS and PSSD be functionally the same...left in a DHT deficient state?
 

Regina

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it is all GABA and allopreg related regarding the sleep part.

Inosine also modulates the receptor which is even better, this is pretty cool.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...diazepine_binding_site_of_the_GABAA_receptors
Hey TubZy,
Are you taking inosine at night to help with sleep?
I am only taking it before aikido to try to curb my noradrenalin. I think it is working. I might be a little less breathless and more resilient on the mat. Not a huge difference though.
 

REOSIRENS

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Lithium increases metabolism?
Yes it does and quite a lot...So the trick is taking the right dose and I do recommend low dose because pfs guys run on hypoglycemia most of times... Cyproheptadine/lithium combo is so good I think every pfs guy should really try... Cyproheptadine will tackle hypoglycemia and potentiate lithium actions ... Both really lower serotonin and estrogen... your libido will be high and stress resilience greatly improved
 

REOSIRENS

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I don't want to detract from this thread's topic. I believe I am suffering from PSSD and was wondering where you found this theory? If this were to be true, could PFS and PSSD be functionally the same...left in a DHT deficient state?
There are some connections between two...Both are connected from the increased prolactin estrogen parathyroid hormone that causes high level of blood vessels calcification...Brain calcification is one of factors
 

tallglass13

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I have found that 11 keto DHT and Andractim, although makes my muscles hard and I feel the confidence and such, seems to LOWER my libido, and gives me a shrinkage effect. Ive been confused about that.
 

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