Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bloom]

5ar enhancement works with help of metabolic stimulation that can be conducted with triiodothyronine progesterone sodium/lithium vitamin B12 carbon dioxide

Lithium increases metabolism?

 

[haidut]

I think @haidut was looking into this for us but I'm not sure what ever came of it, yeah I agree that would be interesting, I feel like once the enzyme is in the brain it will start to upregulate quicker again. I also think that is why majority of circulating DHT is normal because 5AR in the body is working just not the brain.

The actual levels of 5-AR enzyme depend on thyroid (T3). Hyperthyroid people produce much more of the 5-AR enzyme then euthyroid or hypothyroid. So, T3, maybe even topically on the forehead would be one way to increase actual 5-AR levels. But regardless of 5-AR levels something like 5a-DHP should address the steroid deficiency in the brain.

 

[TubZy]

The actual levels of 5-AR enzyme depend on thyroid (T3). Hyperthyroid people produce much more of the 5-AR enzyme then euthyroid or hypothyroid. So, T3, maybe even topically on the forehead would be one way to increase actual 5-AR levels. But regardless of 5-AR levels something like 5a-DHP should address the steroid deficiency in the brain.

Would you say that taking T3 and 5a-DHP at the same exact time would increase further 5AR activity in the brain compared to just taking 5a-DHP alone? Same with say androsterone as well.

 

[mayweatherking]

If 5ar2 inhibition is still going on, then dht would be permanently down regulated which it is not.

This site is turning into PropeciaHelp.

 

[Evan]

@bloom Dude, I applaud you in your quest for understanding this phenomena. I always kind of thought that some part of the brain that controls sexual behavior was behind this, and also maybe the spinal cord as well. I definitely think you're on to something huge.

 

[bloom]

If 5ar2 inhibition is still going on, then dht would be permanently down regulated which it is not.

This site is turning into PropeciaHelp.

Well there is still some 5ar activity going on hence blood levels of DHT. However 3a-diol-g (intracellular biomarker for 5ar status) are generally extremely low in PFS patients. It seems blood levels of DHT is a superficial indicator for 5ar status in PFS sufferers. It's most likely that PFS is an epigenetic downregulation of 5ar.

 

[TubZy]

For sure I think the predominate problem is 5ar downregulation in the brain. Like I said any attempts to increase DHT peripherally makes me worse. I read a post from a guy on propecia help who claimed Proviron 'shrunk his ****'. I think there are varying degrees of severity with PFS. The worst being when it is downregulated in the Brain. My biggest improvements so far have come from 'slamming' the GABAA receptor with high doses of Nicotinamide, and valium. Every aspect of my condition improved, mental and physical. Libido, Brainfog, memory, mood. My muscles tightened, I started to sweat again, I started to get spontaneous erections, temperature in my **** increased, my shrinkage reversed. Whereas creatine, and sorghum made me dramatically worse. Shrunk my **** ect. Looking at countless posts from propeciahelp, this is not uncommon. This is a huge clue that the problem resides in the brain.

Yup, anything that effected GABA is also a benefit for me. 5a-dhp, progesterone, niacinamide, pregnenolone in high doses (which converts to allopreg and progesterone), glycine, androsterone etc.

Niacinamide can be a double edged sword though if doses are used to high and don't take in enough sugar, I feel worse. How much do you take?

 

[Dhair]

Yup, anything that effected GABA is also a benefit for me. 5a-dhp, progesterone, niacinamide, pregnenolone in high doses (which converts to allopreg and progesterone), glycine, androsterone etc.

Niacinamide can be a double edged sword though if doses are used to high and don't take in enough sugar, I feel worse. How much do you take?

What kind of pregnenolone did you use?

 

[TubZy]

What kind of pregnenolone did you use?

Healthnatura

@bloom I meant to tell you about magnolia, it acts on GABA (A) as well. I just came across the study. Have you tried it yet.

Magnolol, a major bioactive constituent of the bark of Magnolia officinalis, induces sleep via the benzodiazepine site of GABA(A) receptor in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Liftmode has it with the main active ingredient

Amazon.com: Magnolia Bark Extract - 20 Grams (100 Servings at 200 mg) | #1 Value for Money #Top Supplement | Better Health, Reduce Anxiety, Lower Cortisol Levels | Honokiol + Magnolol: Health & Personal Care

 

[bruschi11]

It just all makes sense that the 5ar2 inhibited neurosteroids are the route of the problem for the majority. But something happens when those that have their crash several weeks later as well. Is it the neurosteroid depletion?

For instance- I was using t3, preg, and t cream for 4 months prior to fin. While on fin, "the feel" of preg and t cream was just significantly different. Coming off fin, literally I felt it when it came out of my system- the room just changed. My senses were different. I was back to normal. This was only of 15 days use.

As the next 3 weeks went- preg felt like preg, T felt like T, everything was getting back to normal. After a stressful on the body one weekend, everything changed. Its like a switch was turned to where I was back on fin where the feel of preg and T were completely different. They were actually a lot worse than when I was on fin. Preg and T both brought on anxiety. These were relaxing compounds literally 2 days before.

This could just be neurosteroids slowly slowly depleting over these 3 weeks or it could be something deeper. I just feel like if preg really felt like preg again after stopping fin, this might not really be the case.

I just feel like some have this "switch" and some don't. It's either lasting sides or some sort of an "epigenetic change". Like there's not just one type of post finasteride syndrome..

 

[mayweatherking]

Well there is still some 5ar activity going on hence blood levels of DHT. However 3a-diol-g (intracellular biomarker for 5ar status) are generally extremely low in PFS patients. It seems blood levels of DHT is a superficial indicator for 5ar status in PFS sufferers. It's most likely that PFS is an epigenetic downregulation of 5ar.

dht can only be made if 5ar2 is working.. the metabolic rate is completely crushed, that is more reason for why it would be low, 5ar2 clearly is not off if dht is there

 

[bloom]

Healthnatura

@bloom I meant to tell you about magnolia, it acts on GABA (A) as well. I just came across the study. Have you tried it yet.

Magnolol, a major bioactive constituent of the bark of Magnolia officinalis, induces sleep via the benzodiazepine site of GABA(A) receptor in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Liftmode has it with the main active ingredient

Amazon.com: Magnolia Bark Extract - 20 Grams (100 Servings at 200 mg) | #1 Value for Money #Top Supplement | Better Health, Reduce Anxiety, Lower Cortisol Levels | Honokiol + Magnolol: Health & Personal Care

Good find i'll give it a try. The only problem is that it seems easy to develop a tolerance for anything which acts on the GABA receptor, it's effects lessen with time. Nicotinamide was exceedingly powerful initially, its effects lessened that's why I'm cycling it. I take upwards of three grams, it took me a couple of weeks to get used to such a high dose, i can tolerate it just fine now.

 

[TubZy]

Kava kava was shown to modulate the GABA-A receptor as well. Also, take a look at gastrodin too.

Magnolia, kava and gastrodin are the three herbs that could seem to work the best.

Nice...niacinamide is good stuff. Androsterone works on GABA-A as well. So pine pollen powder or androsterone supplement (r-andro, ideal labs etc.)

Maybe combine it with T3 taken at the same time since it upregulates 5AR.

 

[mayweatherking]

Have any of you guys ever experienced swelling on the sides of your head before? I know its thyroid related but feel like something else might be at play or what it is

 

[bloom]

It just all makes sense that the 5ar2 inhibited neurosteroids are the route of the problem for the majority. But something happens when those that have their crash several weeks later as well. Is it the neurosteroid depletion?

For instance- I was using t3, preg, and t cream for 4 months prior to fin. While on fin, "the feel" of preg and t cream was just significantly different. Coming off fin, literally I felt it when it came out of my system- the room just changed. My senses were different. I was back to normal. This was only of 15 days use.

As the next 3 weeks went- preg felt like preg, T felt like T, everything was getting back to normal. After a stressful on the body one weekend, everything changed. Its like a switch was turned to where I was back on fin where the feel of preg and T were completely different. They were actually a lot worse than when I was on fin. Preg and T both brought on anxiety. These were relaxing compounds literally 2 days before.

This could just be neurosteroids slowly slowly depleting over these 3 weeks or it could be something deeper. I just feel like if preg really felt like preg again after stopping fin, this might not really be the case.

I just feel like some have this "switch" and some don't. It's either lasting sides or some sort of an "epigenetic change". Like there's not just one type of post finasteride syndrome..

The infamous PFS crash. Guys go off Fin return to normal for a little while, then develop PFS. What's interesting to note is that a lot of guys with PFS claim to get better when they start a low dose of Fin. So we have guys who get worse when they go on TRT/Proviron, then get better when they go on Fin? How strange. What's interesting to note is that Fin is a powerful inhibitor of 5ar2 and 5ar3. But NOT 5ar1. 5ar2 is not found in the brain however 5ar1 and 5ar3 are. From wikipeida

Finasteride is a 5α-reductase inhibitor, specifically the type II and III isoenzymes.[3][24] By inhibiting 5α-reductase, finasteride prevents conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by the type II and III isoenzymes, resulting in a decrease in serum DHT levels by about 65–70% and in prostate DHT levels by up to 85–90%,[3][25]where expression of the type II isoenzyme predominates. Unlike triple inhibitors of all three isoenzymes of 5α-reductase like dutasteride which can reduce DHT levels in the entire body by more than 99%,[3] finasteride does not completely suppress DHT production because it lacks significant inhibitory effects on the 5α-reductase type I isoenzyme, with 100-fold less affinity for I as compared to II.[7]

This is going way out on a limb, it could be that when you inhibit the 5ar2 and 3 enzyme the body compensates by trying to upregulate 5ar. 5ar1 is not inhibited so the upregulation brings 5ar1 to relatively normal levels in the brain. This could explain why guys with PFS get better on a low dose of Fin. Just a thought.
I dont think its a coincidence that so many of the metabolites of the 5ar are powerful allosteric modulators of the GABA receptor, and that so many of us dramatically improve on GABA enhancing substances. And with the study Haidut mentioned which found valium increases the 5ar in the Diencephalon by more than two fold, it makes me think that stimulation of the GABA receptor plays a huge role in regulation of 5ar levels in the brain.

 

[TubZy]

Kava Kava upregulates GABA-A..forget to post study..I might try it. If GABA upregulates that should upregulate 5AR in the brain as well.

Kava Kava for Anxiolysis and GABA-a Receptor Upregulation - Supplements

 

[bloom]

Kava Kava upregulates GABA-A..forget to post study..I might try it. If GABA upregulates that should upregulate 5AR in the brain as well.

Kava Kava for Anxiolysis and GABA-a Receptor Upregulation - Supplements

Very interesting

 

[TubZy]

Very interesting

Bacopa as well. Not sure how I missed this. Shown to upregulate "downregulated" GABA receptors including (A)....

Behavioral deficit and decreased GABA receptor functional regulation in the cerebellum of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and bacoside A. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[stumpus]

Lurked here a bit and thought I'd share my journey for which I've been keeping a log on Reddit. Oddly enough, "bloom" and I had thoughts regarding the implication of 5aR around the same time, with my post just a day before. I do not have the honed intelligence or incredible memory of most of you, with my musings being very abstract and conceptual... and in some places probably very wrong. Most of you have an enormously detailed grasp of the biology behind this, while I can only push around things from the "big picture" perspective. However, I have made recent, significant progress with Butea, and although I have ordered 5a-DHP and Pansterone, I have chosen to wholly throw my efforts into timing and dosing experiments with this specific herb.

Anyway, it is a verbose read, and as mentioned, you will likely find errors in my thinking. I simply do not have the knowledge that most of you possess, and thanks to our friend "brain fog," I have had to adapt in other ways in order to try and tackle our problem... mainly through excruciatingly slow trial and error. Here is my log, and I plan on continuing my current regimen, focusing solely on Butea in combination with a few other things I mention:

Possible Remediation for PFS Sufferers • r/tressless

p.s. You will have to read my updates in reverse for them to make sense.

 

[JoeKool]

This could explain why guys with PFS get better on a low dose of Fin. Just a thought

Oh man I even see how that's plausible... I read somewhere (and I'm relooking ) how Fin mimics something else we needed and when we cut it out, that negative feedback loop never picked up for us... I still believe , along the lines you're thinking, that the ppl with the previous undiagnosed (or even clinical) anxiety issues suffered the most... since only a few percentage of ppl suffer such anxiety issues and only a few percentage of those use Fin and suffer PFS once off... not on , except the 'expected & accepted' trade off of 'potential low' libido... etc ... as we all KNOW now fin is horrific for such side affects amongst others... GABA, etc... and why xanax at night helps return nocturnal erections ...

Still, the 'cross the streams' idea (Original Ghostbusters reference) of doing something against all sense , using a low dose of fin... may, on paper hold merit, but I wouldn't risk it whatsoever...