Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bloom]

This is such


Very true.... I respond with major anxiety attacks lol. I think androsterone and the metabolites aren't bad but trying to replace testosterone at a replacement level is a no no esspecially if what you are saying is true and how I react.

Will also say I had the ratio done: 5athf/thf. .4 (.6-1.3 scale).

So increasing 5ar in the nervous system is the goal as you describe it. There has to be a way to beat this chemically. Just need the right people to get on it.

Yeah me too. So you should probably just focus on neurosteroids for the time being, and avoid testosterone. I've found some interesting studies on neurosteroids i'll post later.

 

[bloom]

I am thinking about using glycin to boost 5ar in brain and taking coconut oil to reduce it throughout the body. I had partial recovery just by taking coconut oil or another 5ari food alone. But I crashed that libido too with ejaculation.

I've thought about doing that myself however for the most part when guys go back on a low dose of Fin they do report initial improvements, but generally return to baseline. I would stick to just avoiding increasing androgens peripherally, and doing your best to increase neurosteroids i.e Allopregnanolone, and increasing GABA levels with L-theanine, Nicotinamide, and perhaps a low dose of B6. The method of trying to inhibit 5ar in the blood while simultaneously trying to raise 5ar in the Brain just seems way too tricky and possibly dangerous.

 

[stumpus]

Ok that's good you've found the 'sweet spot' can I ask what your symptoms are? Psychological? Physical?

This is a list I made out recently, which is chronological and spans a few years:

• Stool becomes very foul and messy. I seemed to have lost the ability to digest fats.
• Libido plummets, and erections become lackluster.
• Labs for free testosterone show increasing amounts of free testosterone for very low doses of TRT.
• Weight is gained and becomes impossible to lose.
• Face becomes puffy and rounded.
• Blood pressure becomes an issue. This came out of nowhere.
• Hearing loss in left ear, with tinnitus becoming much, much worse (have always had tinnitus).
• Intolerance to exercise or any form of activity. Fatigue progressively getting worse.
• Highly susceptible to getting sick. Seem to catch everything.
• Heart seems to just not pump right. Difficult to explain. Textbook symptoms of heart failure with Sinatra protocol attempted (no positive results).
• Blood sugar becomes an issue. Fasting glucose is never below 100.
• Skin, particularly on lower extremities takes on a very scaly appearance and is impossible to keep hydrated.
• Vision becomes problematic, with presbyopia highly accelerated (possibly just age, though).
• Cognitive and memory functions are noticed to have declined markedly over the past few years (as well as worsening anhedonia).

A lot of these have been mitigated since I began to address as a cortisol issue. Took years to get here, though, so I figure it will take years to heal. Cognitive and memory functions have been improved with nootropics and intranasal insulin. One subtle thing I have noticed is I had gotten to a point where I couldn't follow movies. I couldn't understand the words fast enough, and if it was a high action scene, I couldn't track it. I also couldn't hold a really active conversation. When I watch movies now, it's like a cloud has lifted. I can understand what people are saying, and I can follow action. I ran across someone a while back that described it with the analogy of "missing frames" in a video, and that is a perfect description. It was very much like I was missing 12 out of the "24 frames of reality."

5a-DHP is a recent addition due to finding this community. Subtle stuff. I like it so far. I took too much yesterday to find my limit and think I am going to settle on five drops pre-bed for a while.

 

[TubZy]

How was the DMG TubZy?

Nothing really at all unfortunately...

 

[TubZy]

Caffeine can be great for me in low doses. But higher it seems to make me worse. I suspect because of the increase in progesterone

I decided to take 600mg of caffeine late afternoon yesterday along with 500mg of niacinamide and half a tab of aspirin. I actually felt really good my libido is pretty insane right now and my energy levels are high with a clear head. Only downside was that I was pretty much in and out of the bathroom most of the day lol.... I never went this high with caffeine before in one dose, something is definitely working. I'm going to try to work my way up to 1200mg in one sitting to replicate that study. I still feel actually pretty good even waking up today- extremely clear headed, very high libido, energetic, no anxiety etc

What is wrong with progesterone? PFS patients were shown to be very low in progesterone which is the reason why most of its metabolites are low..i.e. allopreg, THDOC etc.

Caffeine was shown to specifically increase ALL of these metabolites in the brain even T and DHT/5AR/allopreg/progesterone/pregnenolone etc. (not by a little but by a significant amount). Also caffeine upregulates GABA receptors which I showed earlier in a study in this thread so literally every area of PFS is addressed. I think dosage, cortisol control and being properly fed is most important though when using caffeine. The niacinamide helps reduce cortisol, lower serotonin and make the response of caffeine even more androgenic in the brain due to the increase in DHT signalling and expression of GABA. Probably caffeine alone at super higher doses can be too much progesterone but again for a PFS patient who is super low in it and could not be the case... feel pretty androgenic right now. I mainly take the niacinamide so I don't die from a panic attack at these high doses of caffeine in just one sitting lol. You need to make sure you have enough sugar though. If you notice a bad rise in cortisol take 5-6 grams of vit C and it will bring down cortisol quick, monitor hand and feet temps to gauge stress response.

I am planning to do another dose again later today since I have been off from work the past two days.

 

[JoeKool]

Yeah, maybe we can find a lab and do a group buy, lab would most likely be outside US though

Put me down as a contributor of investment ... if the idealabs people wish to contact me, I would like to hear the feasibility of this, previous attempt, costs involved & end product offered. I will absolutely make an investment if this is a possible solution.

 

[freeflow]

When I did coffee enema for the first 2 times, it gave back my dopamine and I wanted to go to party again. But this good feeling faded away in some days. Now it seems I got the answer why it made me felt so good. Interesting thing that I could never replicate this good effect with coffee enemas again. Worked at the first 2 times. Will try this caffeine pill, should I take the caffeine with a meal? Caffeine not good on an empty stomach right?

 

[TubZy]

When I did coffee enema for the first 2 times, it gave back my dopamine and I wanted to go to party again. But this good feeling faded away in some days. Now it seems I got the answer why it made me felt so good. Interesting thing that I could never replicate this good effect with coffee enemas again. Worked at the first 2 times. Will try this caffeine pill, should I take the caffeine with a meal? Caffeine not good on an empty stomach right?

Just up the dose? You probably built a tolerance to caffeine, it can happen quick hence why the effect went away. Definitely don't take caffeine on empty stomach, plenty of sugar and protein. I would suggest using caffeine pills...

I just jumped from 200mg to 600mg in one sitting..

 

[bruschi11]

Put me down as a contributor of investment ... if the idealabs people wish to contact me, I would like to hear the feasibility of this, previous attempt, costs involved & end product offered. I will absolutely make an investment if this is a possible solution.

Put me down here too.

 

[freeflow]

I will buy caffeine pills next week and report back. Its very interesting I had some temporary partial recoveries many times but the feeling fades away or the libido and good feeling crashes with ejaculation.

 

[TubZy]

I will buy caffeine pills next week and report back. Its very interesting I had some temporary partial recoveries many times but the feeling fades away or the libido and good feeling crashes with ejaculation.

Cool, let us know. I would suggest using niacinamide or aspirin to help shutdown the stress response which could possibly cause the crash.

 

[mayweatherking]

This is a list I made out recently, which is chronological and spans a few years:

• Stool becomes very foul and messy. I seemed to have lost the ability to digest fats.
• Libido plummets, and erections become lackluster.
• Labs for free testosterone show increasing amounts of free testosterone for very low doses of TRT.
• Weight is gained and becomes impossible to lose.
• Face becomes puffy and rounded.
• Blood pressure becomes an issue. This came out of nowhere.
• Hearing loss in left ear, with tinnitus becoming much, much worse (have always had tinnitus).
• Intolerance to exercise or any form of activity. Fatigue progressively getting worse.
• Highly susceptible to getting sick. Seem to catch everything.
• Heart seems to just not pump right. Difficult to explain. Textbook symptoms of heart failure with Sinatra protocol attempted (no positive results).
• Blood sugar becomes an issue. Fasting glucose is never below 100.
• Skin, particularly on lower extremities takes on a very scaly appearance and is impossible to keep hydrated.
• Vision becomes problematic, with presbyopia highly accelerated (possibly just age, though).
• Cognitive and memory functions are noticed to have declined markedly over the past few years (as well as worsening anhedonia).

A lot of these have been mitigated since I began to address as a cortisol issue. Took years to get here, though, so I figure it will take years to heal. Cognitive and memory functions have been improved with nootropics and intranasal insulin. One subtle thing I have noticed is I had gotten to a point where I couldn't follow movies. I couldn't understand the words fast enough, and if it was a high action scene, I couldn't track it. I also couldn't hold a really active conversation. When I watch movies now, it's like a cloud has lifted. I can understand what people are saying, and I can follow action. I ran across someone a while back that described it with the analogy of "missing frames" in a video, and that is a perfect description. It was very much like I was missing 12 out of the "24 frames of reality."

5a-DHP is a recent addition due to finding this community. Subtle stuff. I like it so far. I took too much yesterday to find my limit and think I am going to settle on five drops pre-bed for a while.

I can relate... Do you have constipation also? So you think it's fat just not digesting? I've had that thought before as well, I believe 5ar2 is involved with bile acid synthesis. So what happens when you eat fat, how do you know you are not able to digest it? Have you tried any thing to help it?

 

[freeflow]

Cool, let us know. I would suggest using niacinamide or aspirin to help shutdown the stress response which could possibly cause the crash.

I was once 95% recovered, crashed with ejaculation, last week libido appeared after taking glycine and disappeared again after ejaculation. How much niacinamide you recommend and what is the reason you think it could prevent ejaculation crash?

 

[stumpus]

I can relate... Do you have constipation also? So you think it's fat just not digesting? I've had that thought before as well, I believe 5ar2 is involved with bile acid synthesis. So what happens when you eat fat, how do you know you are not able to digest it? Have you tried any thing to help it?

Being unable to digest fats was the very first symptom I experienced, and the problem has grown to the point where I now have chronic pain the ileocecal area. I believe this area (the last part of the small intestine) is also responsible for B12 absorption, and I have recently had labs that showed full-on anemia with very low iron. That may be a stretch, but the anemia came out of nowhere. Anyway, I have tried many different multi and single strains of probiotics, as well as different kinds of starches, digestive enzymes, bitters, etc. A lot of what I tried was just me making a best guess; it wasn't until recently I started to try and address my problems under the umbrella of PFS. None of it has helped, though, and almost always it just ended up with me enduring gastrointestinal discomfort with no immediate or long-term benefit. As an aside, I swear higher dose Vitamin D makes it worse (5000IU), so I stick with just 1000IU.

I had also developed a real difficulty digesting red meat. However, with my recent attacks on cortisol, my bowel movements have improved, and I apologize for the TMI, but the frequency of movements that require nothing more than a "check wipe" has increased. I haven't had that in years. I also seem to be able to digest red meat again.

I do seem to have slow transit. Could that be considered a type of constipation? I usually only go once a day, and by the night time, I am very bloated. What happens when I eat higher fat is there is a very visible, oily sheen on top of the water after passing stool... not to mention cleanup is just a terribly protracted affair, and the odor is just awful. I mean, I know it's not going to smell like roses, but the very first symptom I noted was just the over-the-top change in odor.

 

[TubZy]

Being unable to digest fats was the very first symptom I experienced, and the problem has grown to the point where I now have chronic pain the ileocecal area. I believe this area (the last part of the small intestine) is also responsible for B12 absorption, and I have recently had labs that showed full-on anemia with very low iron. That may be a stretch, but the anemia came out of nowhere. Anyway, I have tried many different multi and single strains of probiotics, as well as different kinds of starches, digestive enzymes, bitters, etc. A lot of what I tried was just me making a best guess; it wasn't until recently I started to try and address my problems under the umbrella of PFS. None of it has helped, though, and almost always it just ended up with me enduring gastrointestinal discomfort with no immediate or long-term benefit. As an aside, I swear higher dose Vitamin D makes it worse (5000IU), so I stick with just 1000IU.

I had also developed a real difficulty digesting red meat. However, with my recent attacks on cortisol, my bowel movements have improved, and I apologize for the TMI, but the frequency of movements that require nothing more than a "check wipe" has increased. I haven't had that in years. I also seem to be able to digest red meat again.

I do seem to have slow transit. Could that be considered a type of constipation? I usually only go once a day, and by the night time, I am very bloated. What happens when I eat higher fat is there is a very visible, oily sheen on top of the water after passing stool... not to mention cleanup is just a terribly protracted affair, and the odor is just awful. I mean, I know it's not going to smell like roses, but the very first symptom I noted was just the over-the-top change in odor.

Allopreg activates the bile acid receptor that is why hence why metabolism also get ****88 up too.

 

[TubZy]

How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism

"...Similarly to many other GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators, allopregnanolone has been found to act as an inhibitor of L-type voltage-gated calcium channels (L-VGCCs),[13] including α1 subtypes Cav1.2 and Cav1.3.[14] However, the threshold concentration of allopregnanolone to inhibit L-VGCCs was determined to be 3 μM (3,000 nM), which is far greater than the concentration of 5 nM that has been estimated to be naturally produced in the human brain.[14] Thus, inhibition of L-VGCCs is unlikely of any actual significance in the effects of endogenous allopregnanolone.[14] Also, allopregnanolone, along with several other neurosteroids, has been found to activate the G protein-coupled bile acid receptor (GPBAR1, or TGR5).[15] However, it is only able to do so at micromolar concentrations, which, similarly to the case of the L-VGCCs, are far greater than the low nanomolar concentrations of allopregnanolone estimated to be present in the brain.[15]"

 

[TubZy]

I was once 95% recovered, crashed with ejaculation, last week libido appeared after taking glycine and disappeared again after ejaculation. How much niacinamide you recommend and what is the reason you think it could prevent ejaculation crash?

Shuts down cortisol (which rises post ejac), anti estrogenic, activates GABA (keeping you calm from caffeine), lowers serotonin, increases DHT signaling..all pro metabolic. However, if you don't have enough sugar or use high doses too quick and can make you feel worse due to pushing your body towards burning glucose instead of FFA. If you search niacinamide on here you will see all the studies.

 

[stumpus]

Allopreg activates the bile acid receptor that is why hence why metabolism also get ****88 up too.

This is good timing, because with the 5a-DHP, I may be able to make further improvements. I'm still taking the Butea and have added 5g of Glycine (which has never had any noticeable effect for me) as well as 1g of Taurine upon waking. I wonder if Taurine should be gram for gram for synergy? Should I add multiple doses of Glycine/Taurine and include some pre-bed? I have noticed with Butea, I now smell again when working out. I literally had no odor for years, and now, quite frankly, I stink like I used to. Funny how so many subtle things are not missed until you get them back. Other areas now stink more, too. Kind of a gross topic, but it is a metric. "Stink" is a subjective term. I am talking about "manly" odors.

 

[freeflow]

I did a 4 day fast in january, and when i ate some fruits on the last evening to suppress cortisol I got a huge HGH boost on the 5th day. My armpits were smelling like pre pfs, my muscles were hard and I was noticing my hairline again. In the general pfs state I dont notice hairlines, but that day it was catching my eyes that my hairline is uneven.

I am planning a 10-14 days waterfast in the summer.

 

[bloom]

I decided to take 600mg of caffeine late afternoon yesterday along with 500mg of niacinamide and half a tab of aspirin. I actually felt really good my libido is pretty insane right now and my energy levels are high with a clear head. Only downside was that I was pretty much in and out of the bathroom most of the day lol.... I never went this high with caffeine before in one dose, something is definitely working. I'm going to try to work my way up to 1200mg in one sitting to replicate that study. I still feel actually pretty good even waking up today- extremely clear headed, very high libido, energetic, no anxiety etc

What is wrong with progesterone? PFS patients were shown to be very low in progesterone which is the reason why most of its metabolites are low..i.e. allopreg, THDOC etc.

Caffeine was shown to specifically increase ALL of these metabolites in the brain even T and DHT/5AR/allopreg/progesterone/pregnenolone etc. (not by a little but by a significant amount). Also caffeine upregulates GABA receptors which I showed earlier in a study in this thread so literally every area of PFS is addressed. I think dosage, cortisol control and being properly fed is most important though when using caffeine. The niacinamide helps reduce cortisol, lower serotonin and make the response of caffeine even more androgenic in the brain due to the increase in DHT signalling and expression of GABA. Probably caffeine alone at super higher doses can be too much progesterone but again for a PFS patient who is super low in it and could not be the case... feel pretty androgenic right now. I mainly take the niacinamide so I don't die from a panic attack at these high doses of caffeine in just one sitting lol. You need to make sure you have enough sugar though. If you notice a bad rise in cortisol take 5-6 grams of vit C and it will bring down cortisol quick, monitor hand and feet temps to gauge stress response.

I am planning to do another dose again later today since I have been off from work the past two days.

I know but progesterone can inhibit 5ar in high doses.