Thorne’s K2 Not Effective At All - Aspirin Still Causing Bleeding

tara

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My anecdote on thorne K2 is that I got a lot less bruising for the last couple of years when I took it. Various amounts, 1-4 drops/mg, every 1-3 days. Recently I didn't take it so often, and noticed a few bruises again, and resumed. Those bruises are healed, haven't spotted new ones. Always lots of potential factors, but this could be one of them.
But I've only taken a modest amount of aspirin on a sporadic basis.
 
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blob69

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Please tell me you mean 200 milligrams not grams ?

Are you on any other medications or supplements ? Have you tried eating liver regularly ?

Of course, I meant mg. Sorry for the confusion!

I eat liver weekly and take pregnenolone and a little progest-e daily. My relative takes blood pressure drugs (diuretics) but has been on them for many years before the bleeding issue started. Also, my relative really didn't take a lot of aspirin, so it's not a matter of overdosing.
 
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blob69

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Thanks to everyone who chimed in! Does anyone have any thoughts about salicylic acid / white willow bark? Is that really much safer, as claimed here for example?
 
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blob69

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Also, Wikipedia on vitamin K says this, but citation is missing... If it is true that aspirin depletes vitamin K, then vitamin K taken with aspirin should improve clotting at least to some degree.

"Menaquinone is not inhibited by salicylates as happens with K1, so menaquinone supplementation can alleviate the chronic vitamin K deficiency caused by long-term aspirin use."
 

PakPik

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Thanks to everyone who chimed in! Does anyone have any thoughts about salicylic acid / white willow bark? Is that really much safer, as claimed here for example?

Also, Wikipedia on vitamin K says this, but citation is missing... If it is true that aspirin depletes vitamin K, then vitamin K taken with aspirin should improve clotting at least to some degree.

"Menaquinone is not inhibited by salicylates as happens with K1, so menaquinone supplementation can alleviate the chronic vitamin K deficiency caused by long-term aspirin use."
I've been taking high dose aspirin, 1-4 grams daily for the last 18 months, and regarding bleeding issues, they are almost nonexistant compared to years ago when I even didn't take aspirin at all and got petechia and bruises more easily. This leads me to conclude that a shift has happened in my blood vessels, they are stronger now, don't break easily, or maybe coagulation function has improved, or probably, both.

I of course supplement K2 -thorne-, because aspirin depletes it. But I think that it is key for anyone taking or considering taking aspirin/salicylates to assess if they have fragile vascularity or coagulation problems. A person with those problems may want to improve them before embarking on supplementation of aspirin, etc... Diet plays a BIG factor. For example, does the person consume a high vitamin C diet, or is on the low side? Vitamin C is extremely important for maintenance of the vascular bed. If the person has a history of oxidative stress -as in chronic illness or chronic toxic exposure- vitamin C requirements may even be greater. Does a person consume too much Omega3-s, do you or your relative? These fatty acids extremely weaken the vessels and interfere with coagulation -and it happened to me when I used to consume them easy to break vessels and slow coagulation-. Do the tissues contain a high proportion of PUFAs and iron? The more they are present, the more they are likely to worsen oxidative stress and vascular damage. How is protein intake? Enough good quality protein intake is also important for vascular integrity and production of coagulation factors.

Last but not least, Aspirin may lower vitamin C status in the body, so it is even more paramount to ensure ample vitamin C intake. But interactions between supplements and nutrients happens all the time, this is not unique to aspirin. Like with zinc and copper, or with vitamin A and D. One increases the need of the other, I think. I shared some important information on the aspirin-vitamin C connection to bleeding issues in my post here, you may want to check it out Why Do Some People Bleed From Aspirin Even When Taking Vit. K? The Vascular And Vitamin C Connection
 
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blob69

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@PakPik, thanks for your informative posts - very interesting! It's definitely true that some people have bleeding issues with aspirin and some don't, and it might well be what you are talking about. I also remembered that when I first tried smaller amounts of aspirin years ago, it eliminated my nose bleeds, so it can work the other way also in my experience. Not sure what was different back then though.

My relative and I don't consume much omega-3, but relative might have an iron overload (elderly male with high ferritin) and doesn't eat much fruit. As for effects of aspirin, the only other negative one for me was more hair loss when taking a high dose. It reduced heart rate/temperature (both tend to be too high likely due to stress hormones) and my acne was completely gone when on it, if that gives any additional clues.

Speaking of vitamin C, what do you think of acerola cherry as a source? I don't always have access to quality orange juice so haven't been drinking it much lately. I remember vitamin C helping me a lot years ago, but now don't dare to take the synthetic version anymore.

Also, if I understand correctly, you don't think willow bark is superior to aspirin as far as side effects are concerned?

Oh and that's really interesting about you preparing aspirin with bicarbonate. I noticed that when I heated the crystals (USP, so no additives/excipients hopefully) in carbonated mineral water, the acidic taste was sometimes gone completely. Do you find this form as helpful as the unmodified version?
 
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i find that the addition of baking soda, AND gelatin, makes aspirin pretty much a non-issue for GI. I can take a gram or two or more a day without problems now. I take K2 also and find this eliminates bleeding.

I may introduce a gram of C a day which I havne't taken for a long time, based upon this, thanks @PakPik
 

Amazoniac

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@PakPikSpeaking of vitamin C, what do you think of acerola cherry as a source? I don't always have access to quality orange juice so haven't been drinking it much lately. I remember vitamin C helping me a lot years ago, but now don't dare to take the synthetic version anymore.
It's definitely a good source, the problem with it is getting too much, in bad meal combinations/timing or not leaving your tooth enamel intact. Try a food processor or something similar if the acidity starts destroying your teeth. :ss
You can take the pulp and prepare gelatos, ice creams, etc; this way it's much milder.
I suggest that you don't force feed in attempt to supplement vit C, as always, stop when it's no longer pleasurable.
 

PakPik

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I also remembered that when I first tried smaller amounts of aspirin years ago, it eliminated my nose bleeds, so it can work the other way also in my experience.
I believe one of the foremost protective effects of aspirin is the restrain it imposes on fatty acids, so in that regard they would be more or less protected from peroxidation; peroxidation harms blood vessels.

My relative and I don't consume much omega-3, but relative might have an iron overload (elderly male with high ferritin) and doesn't eat much fruit.
Well, both advanced age, iron overload and chronic disease are risks factors for decreased vitamin C status. Regarding iron, a full panel is more informative than ferritin alone. This paper shares info on the risks factors for vit. C deficiency. They seem to advocate the plasma vitamin C test.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/acb.2009.053

Langlois.png


As for effects of aspirin, the only other negative one for me was more hair loss when taking a high dose.
Aspirin actions modulate the immune system, which may affect scalp's mast cells, etc... Also, not sure what dose you used, but certain doses of aspirin can trigger some stress reactions if it gets to uncouple oxidative phosphorylation -it pushes metabolism too much and if a person can't handle it for a variety of reasons, there are undesirable consequences-.

Speaking of vitamin C, what do you think of acerola cherry as a source? I don't always have access to quality orange juice so haven't been drinking it much lately. I remember vitamin C helping me a lot years ago, but now don't dare to take the synthetic version anymore.
I also am not a fan of synthetic vit C, but in case of subclinical scurvy/low vit C, if there's not enough fruit intake, then taking the synthetics would be the lesser evil so to speak.
There are also food based vitamin C supplements, I think those may be better than purely synthetics.

Also, if I understand correctly, you don't think willow bark is superior to aspirin as far as side effects are concerned?
I don't have experience with willow bark, but yeah, if the problem is side effects from salicylates my guess would be that it wouldn't make much difference (I think it *may* thin the blood somewhat less since it doesn't contain acetic acid; it would be worth pursuing info on that).

i find that the addition of baking soda, AND gelatin, makes aspirin pretty much a non-issue for GI.
Oh, I totally forgot about glycine. With aspirin, there should be enough glycine intake because aspirin depletes glycine according to a study haidut shared.

It's definitely a good source, the problem with it is getting too much, in bad meal combinations/timing
I think Amazoniac refers to avoiding combining a high vitamin C supplement/food with a high iron meal since vitamin C enhances iron absorption very much.
In my opinion, though, if there's a case of subclinical scurvy or deficiency not getting enough is way worse than getting "extra" amounts.

Best hopes for you :)
 
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blob69

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I believe one of the foremost protective effects of aspirin is the restrain it imposes on fatty acids, so in that regard they would be more or less protected from peroxidation; peroxidation harms blood vessels.


Well, both advanced age, iron overload and chronic disease are risks factors for decreased vitamin C status. Regarding iron, a full panel is more informative than ferritin alone. This paper shares info on the risks factors for vit. C deficiency. They seem to advocate the plasma vitamin C test.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/acb.2009.053

View attachment 3408


Aspirin actions modulate the immune system, which may affect scalp's mast cells, etc... Also, not sure what dose you used, but certain doses of aspirin can trigger some stress reactions if it gets to uncouple oxidative phosphorylation -it pushes metabolism too much and if a person can't handle it for a variety of reasons, there are undesirable consequences-.


I also am not a fan of synthetic vit C, but in case of subclinical scurvy/low vit C, if there's not enough fruit intake, then taking the synthetics would be the lesser evil so to speak.
There are also food based vitamin C supplements, I think those may be better than purely synthetics.


I don't have experience with willow bark, but yeah, if the problem is side effects from salicylates my guess would be that it wouldn't make much difference (I think it *may* thin the blood somewhat less since it doesn't contain acetic acid; it would be worth pursuing info on that).


Oh, I totally forgot about glycine. With aspirin, there should be enough glycine intake because aspirin depletes glycine according to a study haidut shared.


I think Amazoniac refers to avoiding combining a high vitamin C supplement/food with a high iron meal since vitamin C enhances iron absorption very much.
In my opinion, though, if there's a case of subclinical scurvy or deficiency not getting enough is way worse than getting "extra" amounts.

Best hopes for you :)

Thanks so much, @PakPik! I'm going to buy some acerola powder right now... ;) What do you take aspirin for, if I may ask?
 

Amazoniac

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Agent207

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There are also food based vitamin C supplements, I think those may be better than purely synthetics.

Do you have any source that backups that statement? or proving supplementing isolated extra vitamin c -at moderate doses 1-2gr- is deleterious to health?
 

Koveras

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Do you have any source that backups that statement? or proving supplementing isolated extra vitamin c -at moderate doses 1-2gr- is deleterious to health?

From Peat:

"The trace impurities in synthetic ascorbic acid can increase free radical production, and quite a few people have allergic reactions to it. The situation isn't as clear with citric acid, but I think manufacturing impurities could account for some of the effects I see. For many years, I have been seeing more symptoms relieved by stopping all the chemical supplements, than by using them."

"Yes, more than 20 years ago, I pointed out the amount of heavy metal contamination, and the frequent reactions I had seen, to Pauling, and he just said I should use Bronson's C, as if that would have been made with anything except Hoffman-LaRoche's stuff. (It was Pauling's own description of the manufacturing process for sulfuric acid, using a "lead room," that got me thinking about the dangers of things
manufactured with it.) I guess ADM is making a large fraction of ascorbic acid now, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was worse than when the heavy metal studies were published several years ago.

"The alteration of production processes in vitamin E manufacture when the evil soybean monopoly bought the industry from Eastman Chemical is analogous to what happened earlier in the vitamin C industry, as profits were maximized. The dramatic vitamin C studies in the 1930s often used only 15 or 25 milligrams per day. In 1953, my first experience with it (which was still sold as "cevitamic acid")involved 50 mg per day, and over a period of just 2 or 3 days, my chronic awful poison oak allergy disappeared. Up until this time, it was still too expensive to sell in large doses. Around 1955 or '56, new manufacturing methods made it cheap (and, for some reason, the name changed from cevitamic to ascorbic) and the average tablet went up to 500 mg. The first time I tried the new form, around 1956, I developed allergy symptoms within a couple of days. Over the next 20 years, my own increased sensitivity to synthetic ascorbate led me to look for such reactions in others. The samepeople who reacted to it often reacted similarly to riboflavin and rutin, which were also made from cornstarch by oxidation. I ascribed the reaction to some industrial contaminant that they had in common, possibly the heavy metals introduced with the sulfuric acid. The heavy metal contamination of synthetic ascorbate is so great that one 500 mg tablet dissolved in a liter of water produces free radicals at a rate that would require a killing dose of x-rays to equal. The only clean and safe vitamin C now available is that in fresh fruits, meats, etc. The commercial stuff is seriously dangerous."

http://designserver.mae.cornell.edu/rea ... ocess.html
..

Process conditions for ascorbic acid manufacture
1. Hydrogenation Typical conditions are: Equal amounts of glucose, water
and methanol, with pH adjusted to slightly above neutral with calcium
hydoxide. Abour 3% by vol. of Raney nickel catalyst. Temp 140-150 C and
pressure 80-125 atm!!
After 2 hours get about 95% yield . Filter while hot to remove nickel
catalyst. Must treat with ion exchange resins to remove essentially all
nickel that may have dissolved from the catalyst (see next step). Cool
down and filter the white crystalline mass

2. Oxidation of sorbitol to sorbose with Gluconobacter suboxydans
Ni ions are a problem--tank materials --since the bacteria are
sensitive. Only 10 ppm may be toxic, although now some strains can
tolerate 25 ppm.

About a 20% solution of sorbitol--also add mineral salts and 0.0.2 -
0.4% of corn steep liquor or yeast extract as accessory nutrients. Must
sterilize medium. Use 10% or even more inocu;lum if batchwise. Highly
aerobic-use oxygen-enriched air and ca, 2 atm backpressure. Temp 30 C
and pH of 5-6 is now possible. After 24 hr. centrifuge to remove the
bacteria De-ionize and vacuum concentrate ( at not more than 50º C )
Drop to pH 3.0 crystallize; then filter and dry. Yield: 90%

3. Acetonation
Dissolve in dry acetone + conc. sulfuric acid ( e.g. 100 gm in 2 liters
acetone plus 80 ml acid) May take 3 hrs to dissolve--forms mono-
derivative first as it dissolve. Stir at room temp for another 20 hours!
Neutralize with CaCO3 , filter off the Ca SO4 and distill off the
acetone. Residue is taken up in ether and dried with anhydrous sodium
sulfate. Ether is distilled off and finally the product is purified by
vacuum distillation at 135º C and 3 mm Hg (Somemonosubstituted sorbose
is recycled back to the process). Yield: 85%

4. Oxidation to di-acetone 2-ketogulonic acid
Originally permanganate was used to accomplish this oxidation, but now
the acetonated sorbose is dissolved in dilute NaOH and aerated with
palladium-oncarbon catalyst for 3-5 hrs at slightly elevated
temperature. The solution is acidified to give the free acetone complex
of ketogulonic acid which precipitates. It is wahed with acetone and
dried. Ca. 90% yield

5. Hydrolysis, rearrangement, & final purification
The product from Step 4 is treated with methanol/HCl at pH around 2 in
an inert chlorinated -hydrocarbon solvent. The temp is held at around
100ºC for 2 hrs. Acetone is released and the molecule forms a ring
structure (inner ester) known as a "lactone". Mother liquors of acetone
and methanol are recovered by distillation, Further acid treatment may
be used to accomplish full enolization. The crude product is
re-crystallized from dilute ethanol. (This and all subsequent steps must
be done under notrogen/CO2 atmosphere to prevent the oxidation of
ascorbic acid) Vacuum evaporation and seeding with pure crystals of the
vitamin are used in the final stage. Yield, overall, for Step 5 is about 85%
=======================================================================
Biochemistry 1995 Feb 28;34(8):2653-61
Differential dependence on chromatin structure for copper and iron ion
induction of DNA double-strand breaks.
Chiu SM, Xue LY, Friedman LR,
Oleinick NL. Department of Radiology, Case Western Reserve University
School of Medicine, Cleveland, Ohio 44106.
The induction of DNA DSB (double-strand breaks) in isolated nuclear
chromatin by Cu(II) or Fe(II)-EDTA in the presence of H2O2 and ascorbate
has been compared to DSB induction by gamma-radiation. V79 nuclei
embedded in agarose plugs were treated with each agent on ice, and the
resultant DNA fragments were analyzed by pulsed-field gel
electrophoresis. In the absence of low molecular weight radical
scavengers, both irradiation and treatment with iron ion induced random
DSB, as judged by the size distribution of DNA fragments, and the yield
of DSB in each case was enhanced by either the expansion of chromatin
(approximately 5-fold) or the removal of histones (21-25-fold) before
treatment. In contrast, treatment with Cu(II) produced small DNA
fragments of uniform size (approximately 100-200 kbp), independent of
the yield of DSB. In addition, neither the DNA fragment
size nor the yield of DSB produced by Cu(II) was affected by the prior
removal of histones from chromatin. Deproteinized DNA was degraded
randomly by Cu(II) but at a slower rate than observed for chromatin. In
the presence of ascorbate, H2O2 was found to be essential for DSB
induction by Fe(II)-EDTA but not by Cu(II), possibly because H2O2 can be
produced from ascorbate and Cu(II)in the presence of oxygen. Despite the
above differences between the production of DSB by the two metal ions,
DSB induction in native chromatin by either metal ion was
blocked by 0.1 M EDTA or 0.25 M thiourea but was resistant to the
hydroxyl radical scavengers 0.25 M DMSO and 0.25 M mannitol.(ABSTRACT
TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Radiat Res 1996 May;145(5):532-41
Catalytic metals, ascorbate and free radicals: combinations to avoid.
Buettner GR, Jurkiewicz BA. ESR Facility and Radiation Research
Laboratory, University of Iowa, Iowa City, 52242-1101, USA.

Trace levels of transition metals can participate in the metal-catalyzed
Haber-Weiss reaction (superoxide-driven Fenton reaction) as well as
catalyze the oxidation of ascorbate. Generally ascorbate is thought of
as an excellent reducing agent; it is able to serve as a donor
antioxidant in free radical-mediated oxidation processes. However, as a
reducing agent it is also able to reduce redox-active metals such as
copper and iron, thereby increasing the pro-oxidant chemistry of these
metals. Thus ascorbate can serve as both a pro-oxidant and an
antioxidant. In general, at low ascorbate concentrations, ascorbate is
prone to be a pro-oxidant, and at high concentrations, it will tend
to be an antioxidant. Hence there is a crossover effect. We propose that
the "position" of this crossover effect is a function of the catalytic
metal concentration. In this presentation, we discuss: (1) the role of
catalytic metals in free radical-mediated oxidations; (2) ascorbate as
both a pro-oxidant and an antioxidant; (3) catalytic metal catalysis of
ascorbate oxidation; (4) use of ascorbate to determine adventitious
catalytic metal concentrations; (5) use of ascorbate radical as a marker
of oxidative stress; and (6) use of ascorbate and iron as free radical
pro-oxidants in photodynamic therapy of cancer.

Photochem Photobiol 1996 May;63(5):649-55
Quantitation of the reactive oxygen species generated by the UVA
irradiation of ascorbic acid-glycated lens proteins.

Linetsky M, Ortwerth BJ. Mason Institute of Ophthalmology, University of
Missouri, Columbia 65212, USA.

The oxidation products of ascorbic acid rapidly glycate proteins and
produce protein-bound, advanced glycation endproducts. These endproducts
can absorb UVA light and cause the photolytic oxidation of proteins
(Ortwerth, Linetsky and Olesen, Photochem. Photobiol. 62, 454-463,
1995), which is mediated by the formation of reactive oxygen species. A
dialyzed preparation of calf lens proteins, which had been incubated for
4 weeks with 20 mM ascorbic acid in air, was irradiated for 1 h with 200
mW/cm2 of absorbed UVA light (gamma >338nm), and the concentration of
individual oxygen free radicals was measured.Superoxide anion attained a
level of 76 microM as determined by the superoxide
dismutase (SOD)-dependent increase in hydrogen peroxide formation and of
52 microM by the SOD-inhibitable reduction of cytochrome c. Hydrogen
peroxide formation increased linearly to 81 microM after 1 h. Neither
superoxide anion nor hydrogen peroxide, however, could account for the
UVA photolysis of Trp and His seen in this system. Singlet oxygen levels
approached 1.0 mM as measured by the oxidation of histidine, which was
consistent with singlet oxygen measurements by the bleaching of
N,N-dimethyl-4-nitrosoaniline. High concentrations of sodium azide, a
known singlet oxygen quencher, inhibited the photolytic destruction of
both His and Trp. Little or no protein damage could be ascribed to
hydroxyl radical based upon quenching experiments with added mannitol.
Therefore, superoxide anion and H2O2 were generated by the UVA
irradiation of ascorbate advanced glycation endproducts, however, the
major reactive oxygen species formed was singlet oxygen.

Graefes Arch Clin Exp Ophthalmol 1999 Oct;237(10):855-60
Failure of ascorbate to protect against broadband blue light-induced
retinal damage in rat.
Wu J, Chen E, Soderberg PG.
Research Laboratory, St. Erik's Eye Hospital, Karolinska Institutet,
S-112 82 Stockholm, Sweden. mei@...
BACKGROUND: Excessive generation of free radicals due to light
absorption is proposed as the most likely mechanism for photochemical
retinal damage.The observed reduction of green light-induced retinal
injury after ascorbate treatment is believed to be an antioxidative
effect. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the possible
protection of ascorbate against blue light-induced photoreceptor damage.
METHODS: Cyclic light-reared albino rats were injected
intraperitoneally with either ascorbate (1 mg/g body weight)
or,as placebo, physiological saline 24 h before and just prior to
exposure to blue light. After 20-22 h of dark adaptation, two groups of
the rats were exposed in pairs to the blue light (400-480 nm) for 6 h at
an average irradiance of 0.7 W/m(2) in the cage. Six days after light
exposure, all rats were killed and retinal samples were analyzed.
RESULTS: Diffuse blue light irradiation resulted in an uneven
distribution of damage in the retina. As judged from the pathological
changes in the retina irradiated, no microscopic difference was
observed between the two groups. The preserved thickness of the outer
nuclear layer was on average 61.3% in the ascorbate-treated and 66.4% in
the placebo-treated group. The photoreceptor loss was not significantly
different between the two groups. CONCLUSION: The ascorbate did not
protect the retina from blue-light induced damage. This favors the
assumption that the mechanisms for blue light-induced retinal damage
might differ from that for green light.

Photochem Photobiol 1987 Aug;46(2):161-4
ESR detection of endogenous ascorbate free radical in mouse skin:
enhancement of radical production during UV irradiation following
application of chlorpromazine.

Buettner GR, Motten AG, Hall RD, Chignell CF.

Photochem Photobiol 1988 May;47(5):635-45
Porphyrin-sensitized photoreactions in the presence of ascorbate:
oxidation of cell membrane lipids and hydroxyl radical traps.

Bachowski GJ, Morehouse KM, Girotti AW.

Free Radic Biol Med 1988;5(1):3-6
Light-stimulated formation of hydrogen peroxide and hydroxyl radical in
the presence of uroporphyrin and ascorbate.
Bachowski GJ, Girotti AW.
Department of Biochemistry, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
53226.
Blue light irradiation of 2-deoxyribose (DOR) in the presence of
uroporphyrin I (UP), ascorbate (AH-), trace iron, and phosphate buffer
resulted in a strong stimulation of hydroxyl radical (OH.)-dependent
oxidation of DOR. Photostimulated generation of H2O2 was monitored after
removal of residual AH- (i) by ascorbate oxidase treatment, or (ii) by
anion exchange on mini-columns of DEAE-Sephadex. Irradiation of the
above mixture produced a strong burst of H2O2 which was intensified by
desferrioxamine and suppressed by catalase or EDTA. The mechanism
suggested by these observations is one in which photoreduction
of UP to the radical anion initiates the formation of H2O2, which gives
rise to OH. via Fenton chemistry. This is the first known investigation
of H2O2 fluxes in a Type I (free radical) photoreaction involving AH- as
the electron donor.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1985 Nov;82(21):7193-6
The role of ascorbic acid in senile cataract.
Bensch KG, Fleming JE, Lohmann W.
The reductone ascorbic acid, present in the crystalline lens in
concentrations higher than those of glucose, is capable of undergoing
nonenzymatic "browning" in the presence of lenticular proteins. We
studied the nonenzymatic browning with ascorbate in model systems
employing bovine serum albumin and lens crystallins. When bovine serum
albumin, alpha-crystallin, or gamma-crystallin was incubated with
[14C]ascorbic acid, the formation of yellow and then brown condensation
products appeared to correlate with increasing protein-associated
radioactivity. The fluorescence spectrum of these products was similar
to that of homogenates of human cataractous lenses. We suggest that the
nonenzymatic reaction of lens crystallins with ascorbic acid may
contribute, at least in part, to the color changes of aging lenses and
to the physical lenticular deterioration leading to senile cataract.
High dietary intake of ascorbic acid did not affect the fluorescence
spectrum of murine lenses; thus, we assume that the speed and extent of
the lenticular browning reactions must depend on a deterioration of
other factors of the multicomponent antioxidant system of the eye.

Int J Radiat Biol Relat Stud Phys Chem Med 1981 Jul;40(1):47-61
A study of the peroxidation of fatty acid micelles promoted by ionizing
radiation, hydrogen peroxide and ascorbate.

Yau TM, Mencl J. The kinetics of peroxidation of fatty acid micelles
promoted by ionizing radiation, hydrogen peroxide and ascorbate were
compared. At the dose-rate range of ionizing radiation studied, the
higher the dose-rate, the greater the total dose required to produce the
same effect. With ascorbate, the rate of lipid peroxidation was
dependent on the concentration of the promoter only up to 1 X 10(-4) M,
beyond which a decreasing rate of peroxidation induction was observed.
Higher concentration of ascorbate also suppressed the promoting effect
of ionizing radiation. Formate, a hydroxyl radical scavenger, inhibited
the peroxidation process promoted by these three agents. Caesium was
found to be slightly inhibitory. EDTA and deoxycholate were also
inhibitory, which may be attributed to iron-chelating and
micelle-disrupting capacity, respectively.
Addition of iron (Fe2+ or Fe3+) to EDTA-chelated fatty acid micelles
re-initiated the peroxidation process. The ease of fatty acid oxidation
at pH 7.5 was arochidonic (20:4) greater than linolenic (18:3) greater
than linoleic (18:2). This order was reversed at pH 11.5. Similarities
in the kinetics of peroxidation obtained suggest that certain biological
sequelae encountered in cells treated with these seemingly dissimilar
agents might arise through some common mechanism(s).

30: Int J Radiat Biol 1994 Jan;65(1):27-33
Free radicals in biology: oxidative stress and the effects of ionizing
radiation.
Riley PA.
Department of Molecular Pathology, UCL Medical School, London, UK.
The most important electron acceptor in the biosphere is molecular
oxygen which, by virtue of its bi-radical nature, readily accepts
unpaired electrons to give rise to a series of partially reduced species
collectively known as reduced (or 'reactive') oxygen species (ROS).
These include superoxide (O.2-),hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), hydroxyl
radical (HO.) and peroxyl (ROO.) and alkoxyl (RO.) radicals which may be
involved in the initiation and propagation of free radical chain
reactions and which are potentially highly damaging to cells.
Mechanisms have evolved to restrict and control such processes, partly
by compartmentation, and partly by antioxidant defences such as
chain-breaking antioxidant compounds capable forming stable free
radicals (e.g. ascorbate, alpha-tocopherol) and the evolution of enzyme
systems (e.g. superoxide dismutase, catalase, peroxidases) that diminish
the intracellular concentration of the ROS. Although some ROS perform
useful functions, the production of ROS exceeding the ability of the
organism to mount an antioxidant defence results in oxidative stress and
the ensuing tissue damage may be involved in certain disease processes.
Evidence that ROS are involved in primary pathological mechanisms is a
feature mainly of extraneous physical or chemical perturbations of which
radiation is perhaps the major contributor. One of the important
radiation-induced free-radical species is the hydroxyl radical which
indiscriminately attacks neighbouring molecules often at near
diffusion-controlled rates. Hydroxyl radicals are generated by
ionizing radiation either directly by oxidation of water, or indirectly
by the formation of secondary partially ROS. These may be subsequently
converted to hydroxyl radicals by further reduction ('activation') by
metabolic processes in the cell. Secondary radiation injury is therefore
influenced by the cellular antioxidant status and the amount and
availability of activating mechanisms. The biological response to
radiation may be modulated by alterations in factors affecting these
secondary mechanisms of cellular injury.

31: FEBS Lett 1993 Oct 4;331(3):281-4
Bilirubin attenuates radical-mediated damage to serum albumin.
Neuzil J, Stocker R.
Biochemistry Group, Heart Research Institute, Sydney, NSW, Australia.
Oxidative damage to biological macromolecules has been implicated in a
number of diseases. Much interest has focused on how non-proteinaceous,
low-molecular weight antioxidants prevent oxidative damage to lipids,
while comparatively little is known about protein antioxidation. Here we
show that bilirubin (BR), the end-product of heme catabolism, when bound
to bovine serum albumin (BSA), is oxidised by hydroxyl (.OH),
hydroperoxyl (HO2.), and superoxide anion (O2-.) radicals to so far
mostly uncharacterised products. The initial oxidation rates of
BSA-bound BR decreased in the order OH > HO2. > O2-.. BR protected
its carrier protein from oxidative damage inflicted by .OH radicals.
This protective action included a reduction in the .OH-mediated cleavage
of BSA, conversion of Trp into kynurenine and formation of
bityrosine-specific' fluorescence. BR also strongly inhibited
.OH-mediated formation of protein carbonyls, whereas ascorbate and
Trolox (a water-soluble analogue of vitamin E) were much less effective.
These results support an antioxidant-protective function of BR and
point towards significant differences in the efficacies of various
antioxidants in the prevention of oxidative damage to lipids and proteins.

32: Photochem Photobiol 1993 May;57(5):777-84
Photosensitized formation of ascorbate radicals by riboflavin: an ESR
study.
Kim H, Kirschenbaum LJ, Rosenthal I, Riesz P.
Radiation Oncology Branch, National Cancer Institute, NIH, Bethesda, MD
20892.
The riboflavin-sensitized photooxidation of ascorbate ion (HA-) to
ascorbate radical (A.-) was followed by electron spin resonance (ESR)
spectroscopy in conjunction with oxygen depletion measurements. In
air-saturated aqueous media,steady-state amounts of A.- are rapidly
established upon irradiation. The ESR signal disappears within a few
seconds after the light is extinguished--more slowly under constant
irradiation as oxygen is depleted. No photooxidation was observed in
deaerated media. Similar results were obtained with other flavins
and when ascorbyl palmitate was substituted for HA-. The effect of added
superoxide dismutase, catalase, desferrioxamine, and singlet oxygen
scavengers (NaN3 and tryptophan) was studied, as was replacement of
water by D2O and saturation with O2. The results are indicative of
ascorbate free radical production via direct reaction between ascorbate
ion and triplet riboflavin in the presence of O2. While the presence of
superoxide ion tends to reduce the steady-state concentration of A.-,
competition from the reaction of HA- with singlet oxygen is less
apparent in this system (at HA- > or = 1 mM) than in the previously
studied aluminum phthalocyanine tetrasulfonate-photosensitized
reaction.

34: Chem Biol Interact 1992 Dec;85(2-3):243-54
Oxidative damage to bovine serum albumin induced by hydroxyl radical
generating systems of xanthine oxidase + EDTA-Fe3+ and ascorbate +
EDTA-Fe3+.

Miura T, Muraoka S, Ogiso T.
Department of Biochemistry, Hokkaido Institute of Pharmaceutical
Sciences, Otaru, Japan.
Oxidative damage to bovine serum albumin (BSA) was induced by hydroxyl
radical (HO.) generating systems of xanthine oxidase (XO) + EDTA-Fe3+
and ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+. Formation of bityrosine and loss of
tryptophan were observed in the ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+ system and
carbonyl formation was induced by both systems.
Mannitol and ethanol very strongly inhibited the carbonyl and/or
bityrosine formation, indicating that the oxidative damage to BSA was
due to HO(.). The sulfhydryl (SH) groups of BSA were very sensitive to
the XO + EDTA-Fe3+ but not to the ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+ system. Catalase
but not hydroxyl radical scavengers or superoxide dismutase strongly
inhibited the loss of SH groups, indicating that H2O2 is involved in
their oxidation. Fragmentation of BSA was observed during exposure to
the XO + EDTA-Fe3+ and ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+ systems and the products
presented a broad band on sodium dodecyl sulfate polyacrylamide
gel electrophoresis. Little formation of amine groups was observed in
these systems, indicating that little peptide bond cleavage occurred.
BSA exposed to the ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+ system was more readily
degraded by trypsin than that exposed to the XO + EDTA-Fe3+ system.
Elastase degraded BSA exposed to the ascorbate + EDTA-Fe3+ system but
not to the XO + EDTA-Fe3+ system.

36: Photochem Photobiol 1992 Feb;55(2):191-6
Oxidation of ascorbic acid as an indicator of photooxidative stress in
the eye.
Glickman RD, Lam KW.
Department of Ophthalmology, University of Texas Health Science Center,
San Antonio 78284-6230.
When whole retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) cells isolated from bovine
eyes are incubated with 14C-labeled ascorbic acid and exposed to a
visible laser, the ascorbic acid is oxidized to dehydro-L-ascorbic acid
(DHA). The amount of ascorbic acid which is oxidized is proportional to
the radiant exposure of the sample (i.e. the total amount of radiation
per unit area delivered over the exposure time). Blue light is more
effective than red light in driving the reaction. The amount of label
appearing in the DHA fraction is increased if unlabeled DHA is present
in the reaction mixture, indicating that some redox cycling of ascorbate
is occurring in the RPE cells. The ascorbic acid oxidizing activity does
not depend on intact cells, is not inactivated by heating the
cells to 80 degrees C, and appears to reside mainly in the subcellular
fraction which contains melanin pigment granules. The ascorbic acid
oxidation may be caused by free radicals formed when melanin is
illuminated with light. This reaction appears to be a useful method for
quantifying the production of free radicals during photooxidative stress.

37: Free Radic Biol Med 1992;13(2):121-6
8-Hydroxydeoxyguanosine in vitro: effects of glutathione, ascorbate, and
5-aminosalicylic acid.
Fischer-Nielsen A, Poulsen HE, Loft S.
Department of Pharmacology, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Oxidative DNA damage, as expressed by 8-hydroxydeoxyguanosine (8-OHdG),
was investigated in calf thymus DNA exposed to either ultraviolet
radiation or to FeCl2/H2O2 in a Fenton-like reaction. The influence of
iron (absent in the UV system and present in the FeCl2/H2O2 system) and
pH (7.4 and 4.0) on the effect of glutathione (GSH), ascorbate, and
5-aminosalicylic acid (5-ASA, a drug used in the treatment of chronic
inflammatory bowel diseases) was examined in these systems. Without
iron, all three compounds considerably reduced 8-OHdG formation
(i.e., acted as scavengers), while in the presence of iron salts, 8-OHdG
formation was accelerated (except for GSH at pH 7.4), i.e., the
compounds acted as prooxidants. This effect was augmented at low pH. The
prooxidant property of 5-ASA may have implications for its clinical use.
Maximum scavenging effect for all the compounds investigated was
obtained at much lower doses than the maximum enhancing effect. This
demonstrates that to the end of oxy-radical scavenging, the
concentration of the GSH, ascorbate, and 5-ASA, respectively, should
be chosen to obtain maximum antioxidant effect and minimum prooxidant
effects. The significance of this finding for the selection of
antioxidant dose is important but remains to be investigated further.

39: Photochem Photobiol 1991 Apr;53(4):481-91
Photosensitized lipid peroxidation and enzyme inactivation by
membrane-bound merocyanine 540: reaction mechanisms in the absence and
presence of ascorbate.
Bachowski GJ, Pintar TJ, Girotti AW.
Department of Biochemistry, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
53226.
The lipophilic photosensitizing dye merocyanine 540 (MC540) is being
studied intensively as an antitumor and antiviral agent. Since plasma
membranes are believed to be the principal cellular targets of
MC540-mediated photodamage, we have studied membrane damage in a well
characterized test system, the human erythrocyte ghost. When irradiated
with white light, MC540-sensitized ghosts accumulated lipid
hydroperoxides (LOOHs derived from phospholipids and cholesterol) at a
rate dependent on initial dye concentration. Neither desferrioxamine nor
butylated hydroxytoluene inhibited LOOH formation, suggesting that Type
I (iron-mediated free radical) chemistry is not important.
By contrast, azide inhibited the reaction in a dose-dependent fashion,
implicating a Type II (singlet oxygen, 1O2) mechanism. Stern-Volmer
analysis of the data gave a 1O2 quenching constant approximately 50
times lower than that determined for an extramembranous target, lactate
dehydrogenase (the latter value agreeing with literature values). This
suggests that 1O2 reacts primarily at its membrane sites of origin and
that azide has limited access to these sites. Using
{14C}cholesterol-labeled membranes and HPLC with
radiodetection, we identified 3 beta-hydroxy-5
alpha-cholest-6-ene-5-hydroperoxide as the major cholesterol
photoproduct, thereby confirming 1O2 intermediacy. Irradiation of
MC540-sensitized membranes in the presence of added iron and ascorbate
resulted in a large burst of lipid peroxidation, as shown by
thiobarbituric acid reactivity and appearance of
7-hydroperoxycholesterol and 7-hydroxycholesterol
as major oxidation products. Amplification of MC540-initiated lipid
peroxidation by iron/ascorbate (attributed to light-independent
reduction of nascent photoperoxides, with ensuing free radical chain
reactions) could prove useful in augmenting MC540's phototherapeutic
effects."
 

Jenn

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Messages
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I didn't read through the whole thread, but my "nutritionist" who introduced me to Peat's thinking said spontaneous bruising from aspirin was a magnesium
deficiency, related to low thyroid function. In my personal experiences with aspirin, I have no reason to doubt his thinking on this. I think aspirin tolerance and magnesium retention go hand in hand.
 

Dante

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Sep 9, 2016
Messages
460
K1 is converted to K2 in the human body. There is an article on here somewhere that explains that conversion of K1 to K2 is our primary source of K2. K2 is present in foods in very small quantities. Natto is the largest source of K2(Mk7) and even then the amount is micrograms, not milligrams. MK4, which is present in Thorne, is not present in food in large amounts.

Does anyone have evidence that K2 is converted to K1? If doctor's use K2 to treat bleeding from aspirin, then why are people selling and recommending K2 to use along with aspirin?

K2(Mk4) is a big money maker, that is the bottom line.You are better off eating foods high in vitamin K1 than wasting money on vitamin K2.
Yeah , Vitamin K2 (MK-4) can be made from Vit K1 (gut bacteria are responsible for this) but there is mechanism for conversion independent of gut bacteria.

Vitamin K distribution in rat tissues: dietary phylloquinone is a source of tissue menaquinone-4. - PubMed - NCBI

Intestinal flora is not an intermediate in the phylloquinone-menaquinone-4 conversion in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI

Conversion of phylloquinone (Vitamin K1) into menaquinone-4 (Vitamin K2) in mice: two possible routes for menaquinone-4 accumulation in cerebra of ... - PubMed - NCBI
 

Dragon

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Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Messages
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Location
On The Beach...in Mexico
From Peat:

"The trace impurities in synthetic ascorbic acid can increase free radical production, and quite a few people have allergic reactions to it. The situation isn't as clear with citric acid, but I think manufacturing impurities could account for some of the effects I see. For many years, I have been seeing more symptoms relieved by stopping all the chemical supplements, than by using them."

Koveras, as usual, a post full of on-point references and info. I found the abstracts related to lens damage especially interesting.

gracias hombre :)
 

sladerunner69

Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
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@blob69 Want my advice? Just keep your mouth shut about it and your head down. Everyone knows Dr. Peat surveills every post on the forum. And believe me, you don't want to end up on his naughty list :wacky:
 

mujuro

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Messages
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Edit - oops. Already posted in this thread.
 
Last edited:

Warrior_

Member
Joined
May 25, 2017
Messages
39
Try LEF Super K and also take Collagen / Glycin, as well as Oj (for vitamin C) and there shouldn't be a problem with bleeding.
Also remember its best to take aspirin together with a meal.
 

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