Thorne’s K2 Not Effective At All - Aspirin Still Causing Bleeding

blob69

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I think everyone who takes Thorne’s K2 should read this. Bottom line: in my experience this brand is not effective, and in the worst case is even counterproductive.

My relative and I were taking large amounts of Thorne’s K2 for about a year because we were both taking aspirin - my relative for cancer and I because I noticed that my digestion was better when I took some in the evening. About a month ago I also noticed that larger amounts of aspirin eradicated my anxiety, so I increased the dose from about 200 g to 1500 g daily and was taking that for some weeks.

The thing is, at some point my relative started complaining of spontaneous bleeding under their skin (not sure how this is called properly - cutaneous bleeding?). I was confused - how is that possible if they take large amounts of K2 with their aspirin? The issue was so bad that eventually they had to stop taking aspirin, and they weren’t taking much in the first place (about one baby aspirin, not even every day).

But then I noticed a similar thing happening to me - I started getting bruises without any apparent cause (this happened even with smaller amounts of aspirin) and when falling with my bike recently after taking larger amounts for a while, I ended up with huge bleeds under the skin that looked quite scary. The only conclusion I can make is that Thorne’s K2 is not working at all for the prevention of bleeding, unless we both have a serious problem with absorption of oral supplements, which I very much doubt, or Ray is wrong about K being able to prevent bleeding.

Then there’s also research Health Natura did on this topic that made me think... Apparently inferior brands of K2 contain impurities that could be working in the opposite direction. Next, members of this forum are reporting negative effects from Thorne’s K2 such as increased tartar buildup, anxiety etc., while the opposite happens with a different brand.

I’ve now started taking Idealabs’ Kuinone K2 and while it’s too early to tell, for now I’m sleeping well and overall feel better. I’ll update in some weeks.

If anyone has their own experience to share, I'm all ears.
 

Agent207

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Im in the same bandwagon. Im finally down with Thorne, and waiting to see how it goes with Healthnatura k2.
 
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I'd echo these statements. No matter how much (thorne) K2 I took, it didn't affect the bleeding effects of aspirin. Shaving cuts continued to bleed without clotting despite 15mg+ of K2 a day.

I don't know if it's related to Thorne's specific K2 product or to K2 in general.
 
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InChristAlone

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I wish Health Natura didn't get death threats about his research into the quality of K2. Sounds like he knows stuff that consumers don't.
 

Lightbringer

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I wish Health Natura didn't get death threats about his research into the quality of K2. Sounds like he knows stuff that consumers don't.
I love a good conspiracy theory and we have many of those from the shape of the earth to Peat's politics. But this one is new, do elaborate on what the evil k2 lobby is up-to :troll:
 

InChristAlone

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I love a good conspiracy theory and we have many of those from the shape of the earth to Peat's politics. But this one is new, do elaborate on what the evil k2 lobby is up-to :troll:
He made a post about it on here a couple months ago saying he needed to take down his k2 article because he got a death threat to his family.
 

InChristAlone

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K2 has got to have clotting factors because I eat very little k1 and don't bruise easily (also don't take much aspirin but do use progest-e).
 
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blob69

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If I'm understanding correctly,Haiduit said only K1 has clotting factor not MK4 which is K2.

That's strange, it's the first time I hear this and also Peat seems to disagree (he recommends either K1 or K2 with aspirin). Maybe @haidut would want to chime in?
 
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blob69

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He made a post about it on here a couple months ago saying he needed to take down his k2 article because he got a death threat to his family.

Wow. I guess supplement industry is becoming huge!
 

healthnatura

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Depends on your philosophy.
First let me say I'm not a Ray Peat expert but I would like to share what I know about this subject. You or Ray Peat may not agree with me. When it comes to clotting there are two mechanisms your body uses. Platelet aggregation and fibrogenen. Based on what we know in the research at this time, as far as I'm aware of , vitamin K has no or very little influence on platelet aggregation. K1 and K2 do have a strong influence on fibrogenen coagulation. Aspirin affects platelet aggregation exclusively so if there is a relationship between K and platelet aggregation it is a weak one. Granted at this time there is still plenty we don't know. But based on what is known about these two products the bleeding symptoms posted here do not surprise me. High doses of aspirin can have lasting effects on platelet clotting as well and may take time to reverse. In theory it is possible to damage the platelet's clotting function and may only be reversed gradually as the platelets are replaced by new ones.

As I mentioned above there is a strong relationship between K and fibrogenen. Fibrogenen and platelets work together to regulate blood thickness and coagulation. Especially when it comes to stopping bleeding. Arteries and veins inherently leak as this is how they ultimately transfer nutrients and waste to and from the cells. If the blood is excessively thin spontaneous bleeding and international bleeding is expected. coumadin thins the blood by blocking K factor responsible for fibrogenen clotting function. There are a few OTC anti fibrogenens such as enzymes and tumeric, however these don't block K they dissolve the fibrogenen. In summary I would not count on vitamin K in any form as a protective agent when using aspirin in high doses. I would also use extreme caution when using high dose aspirin as your primary risks are poor wound clotting, internal bleeding and renal damage. Animal grade aspirin may also play a factor as well.

While I'm not a big fan of bulk aspirin or caffeine I have found for you USP aspirin and caffeine. They will be in stock within the month. Just please, please, please be careful with them. As both can easily cause serious harm or death if not used with caution.

I have a great respect for this community and the contributions you make to the world and the value you bring to my life and work. I hope that I have shared something of value.
 

StrongMom

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First let me say I'm not a Ray Peat expert but I would like to share what I know about this subject. You or Ray Peat may not agree with me. When it comes to clotting there are two mechanisms your body uses. Platelet aggregation and fibrogenen. Based on what we know in the research at this time, as far as I'm aware of , vitamin K has no or very little influence on platelet aggregation. K1 and K2 do have a strong influence on fibrogenen coagulation. Aspirin affects platelet aggregation exclusively so if there is a relationship between K and platelet aggregation it is a weak one. Granted at this time there is still plenty we don't know. But based on what is known about these two products the bleeding symptoms posted here do not surprise me. High doses of aspirin can have lasting effects on platelet clotting as well and may take time to reverse. In theory it is possible to damage the platelet's clotting function and may only be reversed gradually as the platelets are replaced by new ones.

As I mentioned above there is a strong relationship between K and fibrogenen. Fibrogenen and platelets work together to regulate blood thickness and coagulation. Especially when it comes to stopping bleeding. Arteries and veins inherently leak as this is how they ultimately transfer nutrients and waste to and from the cells. If the blood is excessively thin spontaneous bleeding and international bleeding is expected. coumadin thins the blood by blocking K factor responsible for fibrogenen clotting function. There are a few OTC anti fibrogenens such as enzymes and tumeric, however these don't block K they dissolve the fibrogenen. In summary I would not count on vitamin K in any form as a protective agent when using aspirin in high doses. I would also use extreme caution when using high dose aspirin as your primary risks are poor wound clotting, internal bleeding and renal damage. Animal grade aspirin may also play a factor as well.

While I'm not a big fan of bulk aspirin or caffeine I have found for you USP aspirin and caffeine. They will be in stock within the month. Just please, please, please be careful with them. As both can easily cause serious harm or death if not used with caution.

I have a great respect for this community and the contributions you make to the world and the value you bring to my life and work. I hope that I have shared something of value.

Thanks for the valueable information, it answers a lot of things. But how about Vitamin B2? Ray mentioned this against bleeding in his articles. In fact, when I asked him about my sons's bleeding, that is what he recommended and it seems to work. When I forget to give him for a while, the bleeding starts again, and stops a few days after I give him.
 

mujuro

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I thought vitamin K has no effect on the anti-clotting activity of aspirin. Aspirin acts directly on platelets to inhibit thromboxane A2. Vitamin K is a cofactor for gamma-glutamyl carboxylase, which is necessary for carboxylation of Gla proteins, many of which are necessary for clotting but none of which include thromboxane A2.

Great post, healthnatura.
 

yoshiesque

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SO, this has been my BIG issue with Aspirin especially after my doctor told me pretty much what healthnatura said. And that is that there are two ways to thin/clot the blood. The way in which Aspirin thins the blood is not the same as the way in which K2 clots the blood. Warfarin on the other hand thins the blood via the same route K2 does, so K2 will only stop Warfarin, not Aspirin. My doctor told me this and he even went onto explain it in detail which went over my head because I dont have the smarts for this. But he was very confident about this.

Haidut did say the following in a post recently when i brought this up to him:

He [Doctor discussing Aspirin] is correct that there are multiple mechanisms for blood thinning but he is NOT correct that vitamin K won't help with aspirin bleeding. IM injections of K1 are given in hospitals to prevent bleeding from aspirin overdose and it works like a charm.

But I dont know what to make of all this now. Maybe its the K1 that you need, and you wont be getting any of that from Thorne product your using.
 

jaguar43

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Please tell me you mean 200 milligrams not grams ?

Are you on any other medications or supplements ? Have you tried eating liver regularly ?
 

yoshiesque

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lol im sure he does. Note he did say "200g to 1500g". Now 1500g is 1.5KG which is 3.3 pounds. You couldnt even fit that on a plate.
 

Atalanta

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SO, this has been my BIG issue with Aspirin especially after my doctor told me pretty much what healthnatura said. And that is that there are two ways to thin/clot the blood. The way in which Aspirin thins the blood is not the same as the way in which K2 clots the blood. Warfarin on the other hand thins the blood via the same route K2 does, so K2 will only stop Warfarin, not Aspirin. My doctor told me this and he even went onto explain it in detail which went over my head because I dont have the smarts for this. But he was very confident about this.

Haidut did say the following in a post recently when i brought this up to him:



But I dont know what to make of all this now. Maybe its the K1 that you need, and you wont be getting any of that from Thorne product your using.

K1 is converted to K2 in the human body. There is an article on here somewhere that explains that conversion of K1 to K2 is our primary source of K2. K2 is present in foods in very small quantities. Natto is the largest source of K2(Mk7) and even then the amount is micrograms, not milligrams. MK4, which is present in Thorne, is not present in food in large amounts.

Does anyone have evidence that K2 is converted to K1? If doctor's use K2 to treat bleeding from aspirin, then why are people selling and recommending K2 to use along with aspirin?

K2(Mk4) is a big money maker, that is the bottom line.You are better off eating foods high in vitamin K1 than wasting money on vitamin K2.
 

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