This Doctor Says Vitamin D Supplements Are Useless

pauljacob

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His name is Dr. Robert Cywes and he's talking about D not as a vitamin but a hormone. His battle cry is this:
"Low D is not a disease, it's an observation. Modern healthcare treats observations, not disease processes."
@haidut, what is your take on this new voice?
 

Maljam

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Thanks for posting. Vitamin D as a hormone has been known for a long time and the suggestion that vitamin D is not a cause but associated isn't new but I havent heard the theory about insulin being involved before. Very interesting and given me something to think about.
 

Blossom

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I listened to that a couple days ago and it matches my experience.
 

yerrag

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Thanks for posting. Vitamin D as a hormone has been known for a long time and the suggestion that vitamin D is not a cause but associated isn't new but I havent heard the theory about insulin being involved before. Very interesting and given me something to think about.
Very interesting on the role of insulin.
I can understand this. So if insulin inhibits the conversion of cholesterol into D2 and D3- inactivated vit D's - it's important then to minimize secretion of insulin. And this is made possible only if we have optimal blood sugar regulation, such that blood sugar levels can be maintained at optimal levels, for me it would be 75-90, such that insulin doesn't have to be secreted by the pancreas. The only time blood sugar levels would go high (I measured mine at 140) is right after a meal. But during this time, insulin doesn't kick in because the body knows, and it's allowing the body a limited time to absorb the influx of sugar from digestion, and for the tissues to absorb blood sugar to be metabolized.

Which is again why it's very important to get blood sugar to be regulated by the body optimally, as it affects our state of health. Overlook this piece of the health puzzle and you are essentially going on the road to nowhere.

Vitamin is only one aspect of it.
There are many other areas of health affected. Immunity is one. The thymus gland is where T-cells mature. If the thymus is weak, T-cell production would be limited. Ray Peat says that if the body is constantly relying on cortisol, the thymus becomes smaller. It's when blood sugar regulation is poor that we rely on cortisol to produce sugar from protein.

So, fix blood sugar first. Then insulin production will be reduced. With less insulin to inhibit vitamin D production, the body can produce enough vitamin D. That is, with sunlight.
 

gaze

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I’m pretty sure Ray already knows this. It’s all about breaking the cycles, for someone with improper metabolism and cholesterol production, a vitamin D supplement can break the cycle and help normalize blood sugar and lower PTH, which leads to the bodies ability to convert sunlight into vitamin D. it’s the same with temporary hormone or thyroid supplementation. once the stress cycle is broken, things can fall into place easier. either way most people don’t even have access to sunlight, so the supplement can still be beneficial
 

yerrag

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What he's saying in the end is it's not because you live in a low sunlight region that you lack vitamin D, he's saying that because of a "high carb low fat diet" there is high insulin, and the high insulin is inhibiting conversion of cholesterol to vitamin D.

He also says taking vitamin D supplements isn't the answer, as it doesn't really solve the problem of what vitamin D is supposed to fix. He talks of liver and kidney problems that would cause vitamin D3 to not be activated rendering it useless as a signalling hormone in establishing calcium balance.

But he's blaming high carb low fat, which I don't agree with. As hclf isn't the problem, it's poor blood sugar regulation, which causes high insulin.
 

Lucas

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What he's saying in the end is it's not because you live in a low sunlight region that you lack vitamin D, he's saying that because of a "high carb low fat diet" there is high insulin, and the high insulin is inhibiting conversion of cholesterol to vitamin D.

He also says taking vitamin D supplements isn't the answer, as it doesn't really solve the problem of what vitamin D is supposed to fix. He talks of liver and kidney problems that would cause vitamin D3 to not be activated rendering it useless as a signalling hormone in establishing calcium balance.

But he's blaming high carb low fat, which I don't agree with. As hclf isn't the problem, it's poor blood sugar regulation, which causes high insulin.
My fasting blood sugar is 100 and I eat high carb low fat. What can I do to lower it?
 

Maljam

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My fasting blood sugar is 100 and I eat high carb low fat. What can I do to lower it?

Eat less carbs more fat for a bit and then measure your fasting glucose, monitor it for a few weeks. With a glucometer you have the tools at your disposal to test things like this yourself, it can be very useful. 100 isn't terrible though, 99 is healthy and 100 is pre diabetes, although now would be the time to make sure it doesnt progress.
 

Recoen

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My fasting blood sugar is 100 and I eat high carb low fat. What can I do to lower it?
Are you sending pyruvate to lactate instead of TCA? Then the cori cycle is recycling the lactate to glucose.
Too many fatty acids - the Randle cycle.
 

Giraffe

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My fasting blood sugar is 100 and I eat high carb low fat. What can I do to lower it?
I checked my Merck Manual from 2004. Back then morning blood glucose 70 - 110 was considered normal.
 

yerrag

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I checked my Merck Manual from 2004. Back then morning blood glucose 70 - 110 was considered normal.
Interesting.

As per the cheat sheet of Dr. Weatherby, the standard of care is from 65 =115. His functional medicine optimal range is 80-100.

70 is the lowest I can go without feeling hypoglycemic. At 95, I'm also overweight. That's why it's a good idea to find your own range. These values are guidelines at best.

But it's easy to see how the standard of care range (used by doctors) predispose us to think we're healthy when we're really not.
 

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yerrag

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Knowing what insulin can do, that it inhibits conversion of cholesterol to vitamin D, it makes sense to have a lower fasting blood sugar, as the lower the fbs, the less likely insulin will be secreted.

At fbs of 94, I was 20 lbs overweight at 165 lbs. At fbs of 84, I was 145 lbs. I attribute that to insulin partly, but the real reason is poor sugar metabolism leading to poor sugar regulation, but poor sugar regulation will also cause poor sugar metabolism, so this is a virtual cycle. This cycle can be broken, but you have to know what's occurring in this cycle in order to break this destructive cycle.

If you can slowly lower the FBS, you lower insulin, and you increase vitamin D production.
 

Lucas

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Knowing what insulin can do, that it inhibits conversion of cholesterol to vitamin D, it makes sense to have a lower fasting blood sugar, as the lower the fbs, the less likely insulin will be secreted.

At fbs of 94, I was 20 lbs overweight at 165 lbs. At fbs of 84, I was 145 lbs. I attribute that to insulin partly, but the real reason is poor sugar metabolism leading to poor sugar regulation, but poor sugar regulation will also cause poor sugar metabolism, so this is a virtual cycle. This cycle can be broken, but you have to know what's occurring in this cycle in order to break this destructive cycle.

If you can slowly lower the FBS, you lower insulin, and you increase vitamin D production.
I have low insulin and high FBS, is this normal?
 

yerrag

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I have low insulin and high FBS, is this normal?
I don't really know as I've not tested my insulin levels, and I feel it's not needed as much. It's another test I can do without personally as it costs more to do and the benefit of having that information is marginal, especially when you're not type I diabetic and you don't need to monitor that (they don't need to either unless they're trying to restore their insulin production).

And what is low? It's usually defined by doctors who use a sick population as their basis to determine what is low or what's high. Having that wrong information as basis only gives us the false sense of complacency and a very low bar to pass. It's like getting a gold medal for merely showing up.

But I think FBS at 100 is high. I think 90 would be an initial target. Then slowly go towards 80. You can keep tweaking to optimal your sugar metabolism as there's so many things that can go wrong in the chain of reactions leading to oxidative phosphorylation. Read @Hans ' article he recently published from this thread; Guide On How To Optimize Glucose Oxidation

It's a process you have to go through to get to a much lower FBS. It's not something one pill or two can do for you. In the process of doing that, you get to learn and appreciate that health is a matter of knowing and practicing as a lifestyle.
 
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Vegancrossfit

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There is such a pro calcium + vitamin D propaganda, it actually worries me.

whenever I tweak around the calcium:magnesium ratio to 1:1 at least (easily achieved through calcium reduction) I sleep much better for a start. Then of course there’s the Ca:phosphorus issue but is it even that bad?

further, calcium blocks iron absorption like nothing else. Of course excess iron is bad but as of myself I’ve mostly seen borderline low HGB/HCT..
 
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yerrag

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There is such a pro calcium + vitamin D propaganda, it actually worries me.

whenever I tweak around the calcium:magnesium ratio to 1:1 at least (easily achieved through calcium reduction) I sleep much better for a start. Then of course there’s the Ca:phosphorus issue but is it even that bad?

further, calcium blocks iron absorption like nothing else. Of course excess iron is bad but as of myself I’ve mostly seen borderline low HGB/HCT..
Calcium balance is tricky. I don't really understand it to be honest.

You have Carolyn Dean, Mark Sircus, Thomas Levy are some known names that say bad things about calcium, or they at least call for lower calcium levels. Ray Peat advocates for 4:1 calcium:magnesium ratio. But he, or @haidut, not sure, also says that with poor sugar metabolism, calcium can end lead up to calcification. I think it's because poor metabolism leads to poor CO2 production in the cell, and there's no bicarbonate to to transport calcium outside the cell, as calcium continually enters the cell as part of the normal cellular operation. Muscles, for example, expand and contract with calcium providing an ionic gradient for this action. The heart muscles need calcium for it to pump efficiently as part of the hearts expansion and contraction.

A good sugar metabolism is necessary for cellular carbon dioxide production. In addition, a good sugar metabolism is needed for good blood sugar regulation (and vice versa). With poor sugar regulation, insulin is produced. Poor sugar regulation is stressful, and seen in this context, insulin is a stress hormone. It's being produced in times of stress to cope with with the condition. Therefore, insulin production has to be minimized. One effect of too much insulin (maybe a little is already too much) is that it inhibits the conversion of cholesterol to vitamin D. When this leads to a vitamin D deficiency, it easily disturbs the calcium balance in the body.

So, I'm not sure if Drs. Dean, Sircus, and Levy understand this aspect of calcium well enough. They may have other reasons for dissuading people from increased intake, but I haven't heard these reasons. But low calcium intake could easily lead to having to draw calcium from our bones leading to osteoporosis.

So while you're fine now with your sleep, it may take years for you to know the consequences of your decision as far as calcium intake is concerned. When you reach an elderly age, then you would know for sure. Meanwhile, please check how good your sugar metabolism is, as well as your blood sugar regulation.
 
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There is way too much interventional data, epidemiological data and mechanistic data to dismiss VD. His assertion that insulin interferes with VD proceedings during metabolism is noted, but is just a detail imo, and does not lead to a need for an renewal of practices in regard to administration or use cases of this compound.
 
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Hard to discuss D without K2 and dietary calcium. I think D3 supplementation is critical for resistance to viruses among other things.
 
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