Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide

[haidut]

:)

If one takes high doses of thiamine, wouldn't it be necessary to supplement potassium? How do you supplement potassium, Blossom and SweetPeat? Do you take a supplement, and if so, which one and what dosage?

I posted another thread on thiamine and acetazolamide reducing cortisol. The scientists were aware of the increased need for electrolytes while on this therapy and had the patients drink 8oz of orange juice daily. It seems that was all the extra potassium people needed.

 

[patchpreset]

I felt great taking 100mg / day of Swanson's Thiamine, but after about a week I began to have a strong sulfur smell if I'd break a sweat at all. I stopped taking it and the smell slowly diminished over the next 2 weeks. I haven't had that reaction to the small amount that's in Haidut's Energin though... Confused as to why that would happen. The fear of stinking keeps me from trying it with the diamox in an appropriate dose.

 

[Blossom]

Blossom, is that your total daily dose? How do you spread it out?

I'm just on my third day of taking it with breakfast, lunch and dinner and I'm increasing the amount each day. I've noticed I fall asleep like a baby the last two nights instead of having my usual winding down period before I can drift off to sleep.

 

[haidut]

Blossom, is that your total daily dose? How do you spread it out?

I'm just on my third day of taking it with breakfast, lunch and dinner and I'm increasing the amount each day. I've noticed I fall asleep like a baby the last two nights instead of having my usual winding down period before I can drift off to sleep.

Both acetazolamide and thiamine do this for me when taken separately. When I take them together, I get almost like a sedated feeling that I have to sleep NOW. CO2 does have these effects, but I will do some tests to confirm that it is indeed raising CO2 and lowering cortisol. I will replicate both studies since they used the same dosages and do some blood work. It will be n=1, but if it confirms the previous studies it counts as a win in my book.

 

[SQu]

I've been taking 1500 mg thiamine for a while, felt a boost to begin with but no more. Worth raising the dose do you think?

 

[haidut]

I've been taking 1500 mg thiamine for a while, felt a boost to begin with but no more. Worth raising the dose do you think?

Not before you do some tests to see how it affects your CO2 when taking it or not taking it. Make sure to also test pH with CO2 since without it, the results are almost meaningless.

 

[SQu]

Ok thanks, will bear that in mind. I don't do much testing because here, that means doctors and I keep them for special occasions like t3 script refills! So for now I won't take more.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

How does this work? Can the effect be canceled by deeper breathing? My frantic mind always wants a backup plan, even though my stiff immovable diaphragm says more carbon dioxide I still can't stop thinking about whether or not I have too MUCH carbon dioxide. How much potassium in terms of milligrams should one have had for the day in total when taking thiamine? Cuz I doubt the only thing they ate/drank containing potassium was orange juice for the entire day.


Excuse me, I just took 300mg and always start thinking about what could go wrong by taking something that has potent effects on the body.

 

[FredSonoma]

Have people been able to achieve good results just by eating high thiamine foods? (According to nutrition data, pompano fish and lean pork seem like the only Peat-friendly foods that are high in it, and milk of course)

 

[RPDiciple]

My point in the original post is that thiamine packs a double punch. First, it increases CO2 production by stimulating PDH and inhibiting PDHK, and then it boosts these levels of CO2 even more by preventing CO2 degradation through CA inhibition. Do you have a list of other substances that can do both?...

The quick answer is no, offhand, I do not know of another single substance that both encourages CO2 release through cellular/TCA cycle respiration while acting as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor (CAI). It may be interesting to look at salicylic acid, which may "uncouple" mitochondria respiration and act as a CAI (see below). You have posted recently (thank you!) about aspirin, which is much more than the cartoon view of either a COX-2 inhibitor or blood thinner.

Due to your posts, I am re-thinking CAI's and thinking further on Dr. Peat's ideas on beneficial CO2 effect in tissues. I did not recognize how numerous the recent CAI studies were. There seems to be half-recognition that CAI action is found in essential processes, lacking the larger view of CO2 "nutrition" discussed by Dr. Peat.

"Of course", much of the research is lab/tissue study rather than whole organism. How CO2 reaches an array of specific sites involves life's intelligent integration.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/co2.shtml
"The local concentration of carbon dioxide in specific tissues and organs can be adjusted by nervous and hormonal activation or inhibition of the carbonic anhydrase enzymes, that accelerate the conversion of CO2 to carbonic acid, H2CO3. The activity of carbonic anhydrase can determine the density and strength of the skeleton, the excitability of nerves, the accumulation of water, and can regulate the structure and function of the tissues and organs."

---
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/co2.shtml

When mitochondria are “uncoupled,” they produce more carbon dioxide than normal, and the mitochondria produce fewer free radicals. Animals with uncoupled mitochondria live longer than animals with the ordinary, more efficient mitochondria, that produce more reactive oxidative fragments. One effect of the high rate of oxidation of the uncoupled mitochondria is that they can eliminate polyunsatured fatty acids that might otherwise be integrated into tissue structures, or function as inappropriate regulatory signals.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
"...it has become clear that the "uncoupled" mitochondrion, that "wastes oxygen and calories," is protective against free radicals, cancer, and aging. Thyroid hormone and the absence of PUFA are important factors in supporting the "wasteful" mitochondrion."

Bioorg Med Chem. 2008 Aug 1;16(15):7424-8. doi: 10.1016/j.bmc.2008.06.013.
Carbonic anhydrase inhibitors: inhibition of mammalian isoforms I-XIV with a series of substituted phenols including paracetamol and salicylic acid.
Innocenti A1, Vullo D, Scozzafava A, Supuran CT.
"The different mechanisms of inhibition by phenols as compared to sulfonamides, and their diverse inhibition profile for these mammalian isozymes, makes this class of derivatives of great interest...."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15505497
J Cardiovasc Pharmacol. 2004 Nov;44(5):591-5.
Inhibition of cardiac mitochondrial respiration by salicylic acid and acetylsalicylate.
Nulton-Persson AC1, Szweda LI, Sadek HA.

"...treatment of isolated cardiac mitochondria with salicylic acid and to a lesser extent acetylsalicylate resulted in an increase in the rate of uncoupled respiration."

Thanks for the links. It does seem that studies on CO2 are coming out at a greater rate then several years ago. Though I suspect it's due to global warming and people getting hired to publish apocalyptic results on the effects of CO2 on living organisms.
I don't know if you have taken DNP, but I found a way to mimic the effects of taking it pretty closely by using aspirin and MB. Optimal uncoupling occurs with aspirin in concentrations 0.5mM/L. This is achievable with 650mg - 1,000mg aspirin taken every 6-8 hours. With each dose, you can take 5mg MB for additive effect on uncoupling. MB uncouples starting at 0.5uM/L. And finally, you can add 500mg thiamine to each dose to mitigate some of the lactate boosting effects of aspirin and further increase CO2.
Using just the aspirin and MB combo makes me sweaty and hot in a way very close to what I experienced with DNP but without the unpleasant jittery feeling. Adding thiamine made me breath deeper, probably due to the lowered lactate and increased CO2.

love it haidut. Im gonna try this tomorrow and see how it effects me while i wait for my DNP

 

[Giraffe]

I read that hepatic cirrhosis is a contraindication for the use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors. Thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_ ... _inhibitor

 

[haidut]

post 98602 I read that hepatic cirrhosis is a contraindication for the use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors. Thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_ ... _inhibitor

The reason is probably that acetazolamide is associated with increased levels of ammonia. At least, that the official data. So, in people with bad liver function and inability to convert ammonia to urea this can become an issue. I would like to hear Ray's take on it since he says increased CO2 is the primary way to dispose of ammonia by converting it to urea. This means that if acetazolamide is bad for liver it could be due to something specific that the drug does to the liver and nor its CO2-increasing effects.

 

[Giraffe]

I looked up "Acetazolamide, side effects".

I got a couple of them after a single 300 mg dose of thiamin: nausea, abdominal pain, unusual tiredness. The GI tract is a bit upset since, and the kidneys hurt.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 98617 I looked up "Acetazolamide, side effects".

I got a couple of them after a single 300 mg dose of thiamin: nausea, abdominal pain, unusual tiredness. The GI tract is a bit upset since, and the kidneys hurt.

I have these often with supra-gram doses. It will be interesting to try acetazolamide myself... those words can mean so many things. But it could be a very significant similarity on our hands.

 

[jaakkima]

I've been fascinated with these threads about thiamine lately, enough to try the 1500mg dose (yes so far it feels very good, and "CO2ish"). I do sort of wonder though, how long one might reasonably want to use it in a high dose.

 

[Katty]

I felt great taking 100mg / day of Swanson's Thiamine, but after about a week I began to have a strong sulfur smell if I'd break a sweat at all. I stopped taking it and the smell slowly diminished over the next 2 weeks. I haven't had that reaction to the small amount that's in Haidut's Energin though... Confused as to why that would happen. The fear of stinking keeps me from trying it with the diamox in an appropriate dose.

@patchpreset Me too. Took me a long time to figure out what the smell was from. I was also taking Swanson's- so I'm not sure if it's the brand or thiamine in general. If thiamine causes liver problems, it could be that our liver function is sub-optimal.

 

[patchpreset]

@patchpreset Me too. Took me a long time to figure out what the smell was from. I was also taking Swanson's- so I'm not sure if it's the brand or thiamine in general. If thiamine causes liver problems, it could be that our liver function is sub-optimal.

The fact that it contains sulfur and that it chelates iron seems like a good set up for making you smell. Some sources mentioned that excess thiamine may be excreted through your skin too. So it may be that alone...

 

[mujuro]

1.5g for me made me intolerably nauseous. It definitely jacked up my CO2 as I was breathing faster at rest and generally had the same feeling I get when bag breathing. Shorter breaths. Is there a way to get around the nausea?

 

[DaveFoster]

Thiamine seems remarkably safe. I'm getting about 1,000 mg thiamine from Energin per day, and I'm going to make my own solution of thiamine HCL in ethanol to try to get up to the 3-5 g range per day.

I'll report back.

 

[encerent]

Thiamine seems remarkably safe. I'm getting about 1,000 mg thiamine from Energin per day, and I'm going to make my own solution of thiamine HCL in ethanol to try to get up to the 3-5 g range per day.

I'll report back.

So you take 2/3 of a bottle of energen a day?