Thiamine and Co-Factors

[Mito]

Interrelationship between manganese, vitamin B1 and the level of pyruvic acid​

Abstract​

Addition of manganese to the diets promotes an increase of the total thiamine content in the blood and the liver, heart and brain tissues. This trace element appreciably changes the correlation between different thiamine fractions. The free vitamin B1 level in the blood and tissues decreases, while the level of its bound form (pyrophosphatic) increases. All the administered manganese doses induced a statistically significant reduction of pyruvic acid concentration in the blood.

Manganese And Its Unimportance In Health | Page 5 | Ray Peat Forum

 

[mrchibbs]

Not much, 20mg pyridoxine hydrochloride per day for around a month. My blood level was 291 nmol/L (range: 20 - 121) and is down to 145 nmol/L after 1 year. It was going down much faster after supplementing with all b vitamins beside b6.
View attachment 20929

My next blood draw is next week and i hope i'm in the normal range again.

How are you getting your blood tests? Via your doctor or just on your own terms?

At any rate, you're doing a good job, I don't recall seeing serum levels of b6 before.

 

[mad539]

How are you getting your blood tests? Via your doctor or just on your own terms?

At any rate, you're doing a good job, I don't recall seeing serum levels of b6 before.

I'm from germany and i can just go to a lab and request what i want to test and pay for it.

 

[mrchibbs]

I'm from germany and i can just go to a lab and request what i want to test and pay for it.

That's amazingly convenient. Where I live we're still in the stoneage by comparison, always needing to get a doctor involved.

 

[mad539]

That's amazingly convenient. Where I live we're still in the stoneage by comparison, always needing to get a doctor involved.

Yes i'm happy this is possible here. It costs a bit of money, but taking your health in your own hands can be liberating but is also very very complex.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes i'm happy this is possible here. It costs a bit of money, but taking your health in your own hands can be liberating but is also very very complex.

Of course, it's very complex, but as Ray has said many times, simply taking some steps to actively take charge of your health can be profoundly therapeutic in of itself. I'd gladly spend money on tests if I didn't have to go through a doctor every time.

 

[Creative Nature]

My last "stack" contained many supplements and while they worked in the short term, in the long term i became very lethargic and depressed and couldn't find out why. Stopped all suppelements and after 2 days i was back to "normal". So now i'm very more cautious and stick to only the b's and some minerals like magnesium and zinc.

What i now for sure is that after taking a b-complex (thorne basic b-complex 2x per day) i can now tolerate carbs (couldn't tolerate them for many many years). Also my skin at my fingers doesn't crack anymore in the winter. I couldn't tolerate alcohol, and my voice was very rough and cracky for many days after a drink (one! glass of wine could do this). Now i tolerate alcohol much better.

Very glad to hear that you can now tolerate carbs. That's a big step in the right direction. In the right context and doses, the B vitamins can be extremely helpful.

 

[mostlylurking]

What dosage should a good b complex contain? Currently i take the b's separately because most of the time the b complex contains stuff i don't want (like choline, or very high folate like 1mg).

My current b regiment looks like this after every meal (3x):
400 mg thiamin hcl
12,5 mg riboflavin
15 mg niacin
500 mg pantothenic acid
400 µg folate
and once daily a sublingual b12.

I'm skipping the b6 because i had sky high pyridoxal levels after taking a month of pyridoxine (inactive form of b6). It took over a year for the level to go down, so when the level is back in the normal range, i will take p-5-p.



My last "stack" contained many supplements and while they worked in the short term, in the long term i became very lethargic and depressed and couldn't find out why. Stopped all suppelements and after 2 days i was back to "normal". So now i'm very more cautious and stick to only the b's and some minerals like magnesium and zinc.

What i now for sure is that after taking a b-complex (thorne basic b-complex 2x per day) i can now tolerate carbs (couldn't tolerate them for many many years). Also my skin at my fingers doesn't crack anymore in the winter. I couldn't tolerate alcohol, and my voice was very rough and cracky for many days after a drink (one! glass of wine could do this). Now i tolerate alcohol much better.


I'm very interested in the book. Are there any guidelines on what, when and how to take thiamin to resolve a deficency?

Yes, there are some guidelines. I like the book. The bio-chemistry is way over my head but I have gotten good information from it that will be helpful. That said, I am really glad that I've spent 6 years studying Ray Peat's work before tackling this book. These people are very knowledgeable and at the same time woefully ignorant about many things. They are rabidly prejudiced against sugar, for example. And fructose is considered truly the epitome of evil, but they don't explain why. No mention has been made of PUFA and how it gums up the works. It's all sugar's fault. And caffeine is truly dangerous. I'm choosing to glean helpful information and taking a lot of what's declared as Truth with a dose of skepticism. My habit when reading other sources is to cross reference with Ray Peat's articles; if they are diametrically opposed to Peat's position, I tend to rely on Peat and question the other source.

Healthy oxidative metabolism burns glucose cleanly and results in carbon dioxide. Thiamine is needed to make this happen. If you are supplementing thiamine to correct the metabolic function so you can burn glucose properly then why would glucose (sugar) be considered BAD and even dangerous? There's talk of people causing their thiamine deficiency by giving in to their sugar addiction. I get it that if you are consuming a higher sugar diet you will probably need to supplement with some thiamine or you could get into trouble.

 

[Sergey]

My last "stack" contained many supplements and while they worked in the short term, in the long term i became very lethargic and depressed and couldn't find out why. Stopped all suppelements and after 2 days i was back to "normal". So now i'm very more cautious and stick to only the b's and some minerals like magnesium and zinc.

What i now for sure is that after taking a b-complex (thorne basic b-complex 2x per day) i can now tolerate carbs (couldn't tolerate them for many many years). Also my skin at my fingers doesn't crack anymore in the winter. I couldn't tolerate alcohol, and my voice was very rough and cracky for many days after a drink (one! glass of wine could do this). Now i tolerate alcohol much better.

So interesting. Can you share what were the symptoms of carbs intolerance? Gut? Mood?
And what was that stack which made you lethargic?
What you describe is very similar to some of my current and past issues, so very interested to understand more.

 

[mad539]

So interesting. Can you share what were the symptoms of carbs intolerance? Gut? Mood?
And what was that stack which made you lethargic?
What you describe is very similar to some of my current and past issues, so very interested to understand more.

After eating a carb rich meal (like chicken plus 50gr of rice) i became very lethargic and depressed. After around 30 minutes, i became extremly tired and dizzy and need to lay down and sleep. It knocked my out for good 2-3 hours and after i'm awake again i feel like i'm sick. Tried different kind carbs, even porridge made me this way back then but rice was the worst. Now it doesn't happen anymore (maybe 10-20% of it) after taking the b-complex for a while.

The b-complex i was taking was Thorne Research Basic B-Complex:

What exactly made me feel this way in my stack, i don't know. I took those things for some weeks until i stopped recently:
- Iodine 200 µg
- Boron 3 mg
- Calciumcitrate 750 mg
- Zinc Picolinate 60 mg
- TUDCA 250 mg
- Vitamin E 800 IU
- B-Complex 2x
- Molybdenum 300 µg
- Desloratadin 15 mg

My best guess is desloratadin and calciumcitrate, these were the last which i added. The other worked fine many months ago. The next what i add is eggshell calcium because i can't tolerate milk and my calcium intake is very low (around 700 mg from food and water) and i will see if it is the calcium or not.

 

[Sergey]

Ah I see, its quite likely deslorotadin. At least I personally dont tolerate those things and get very depressed and lethargic.
Have you tried eating just carbs, not carbs with protein? Wondering if that reaction to carbs was due to histamine production by gut flora. Were there any issues at the same time with face flushing, migranes, headaches, tension around neck/head, feeling drunk etc?
William Walsh used histamine as the most reliable indicator for methylation status. With high histamine pointing to low methyl activity. The complex you took had several important methylation cofactors so maybe it improved tolerance to histamine via up-regulating methylation pathways.
and sugars, juices, same reaction?
have you tried taking probiotics or fermented fooda? And if yes, what was the reaction?

 

[laleto12]

Ah I see, its quite likely deslorotadin. At least I personally dont tolerate those things and get very depressed and lethargic.
Have you tried eating just carbs, not carbs with protein? Wondering if that reaction to carbs was due to histamine production by gut flora. Were there any issues at the same time with face flushing, migranes, headaches, tension around neck/head, feeling drunk etc?
William Walsh used histamine as the most reliable indicator for methylation status. With high histamine pointing to low methyl activity. The complex you took had several important methylation cofactors so maybe it improved tolerance to histamine via up-regulating methylation pathways.
and sugars, juices, same reaction?
have you tried taking probiotics or fermented fooda? And if yes, what was the reaction?

 

[StephanF]

I'm interested in this as well. I am dosing currently about 300mg per day and I continuously have music playing in my head. I always had a sensitivity for it. But now it's much worse. Idk for sure if it's the b1, because I'm also doing some other things, but could this be excess acetylcholine ?

Isn’t B12 important for proper brain function?

 

[StephanF]

“After eating a carb rich meal (like chicken plus 50gr of rice) i became very lethargic and depressed. After around 30 minutes, i became extremly tired and dizzy and need to lay down and sleep.“

I get sometimes tired after lunch and also noted that with a co-worker. Especially with salty foods. For me that is a sign of dehydration, two glasses of water and I am up and running again. Try it out!

 

[Tim Lundeen]

Does anyone know what kind of vitamins or minerals need to be supplemented (or need to be looking out for) when starting a high dose thiamin regiment?

Today i started thiamin supplementation with thamine hcl (1.200 mg per day throughout the day) and sulbutiamine (200 mg) for trying to fix a host of issues i have since many years now. After only half a day in, i have a continuous headache and now have issues swallowing (food keeps stuck in the esophagus). This might be a paradoxical reaction/refeed syndrome as described by Derrick Londsdale (see here). I had issues swallowing in the past when tinkering with folate, which was either a b12 or potassium issue if i remember it correctly.

So i'm very interested in what kind of deficency i could run into when going the high dose thiamin route or if anybody had issues when taking high dose thamin.

Suggest you try either allithiamine or thiamine pyrophosphate. Some people react badly to thiamine HCl. If you start with high doses, you will have major side effects but might end up healing more quickly (Lonsdale says they usually end in 30 days). Instead, you could titrate up from a starting dose that doesn't cause any side effects. You can double the dose every day till you start noticing it, stay at that level till effects subside at least 4-5 days, then increase again.

 

[Blossom]

Here’s a good article although I believe everything mentioned in it has already been covered in this thread and elsewhere on the forum.

Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Glutathione Connection - Hormones Matter

Some individuals experience negative reactions and the worsening of symptoms when they begin thiamine repletion therapies.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[Perry Staltic]

Here’s a good article although I believe everything mentioned in it has already been covered in this thread and elsewhere on the forum.

Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Glutathione Connection - Hormones Matter

Some individuals experience negative reactions and the worsening of symptoms when they begin thiamine repletion therapies.

www.hormonesmatter.com

For TTFD to “release” its thiamine, its disulfide bond must gain electrons from another donor molecule. In chemical terms, this process is referred to as reduction. Once this reduction occurs, thiamine is freed and can then go on to participate in cellular biochemical reactions. Of the few molecules which have been shown to reduce TTFD, glutathione performs this function most effectively. As the cell’s primary antioxidant, glutathione is responsible for donating electrons to neutralize reactive oxygen species, and can either be found in its reduced form or its oxidized form. Once a reduced glutathione molecule (GSH) has donated its electron, it bridges with another to molecule to form oxidized glutathione (GSSG).

Vitamin C is an (2) electron donor. Maybe take vC with B1.

Glutathione and vC actually work together. vC reduces ROS, and then gets reduced by glutathione back to its original reductive state.

 

[Blossom]

Vitamin C is an (2) electron donor. Maybe take vC with B1.

Glutathione and vC actually work together. vC reduces ROS, and then gets reduced by glutathione back to its original reductive state.

Excellent point. I’ve heard that before but not sure where exactly.

 

[mad539]

Ah I see, its quite likely deslorotadin. At least I personally dont tolerate those things and get very depressed and lethargic.
Have you tried eating just carbs, not carbs with protein? Wondering if that reaction to carbs was due to histamine production by gut flora. Were there any issues at the same time with face flushing, migranes, headaches, tension around neck/head, feeling drunk etc?
William Walsh used histamine as the most reliable indicator for methylation status. With high histamine pointing to low methyl activity. The complex you took had several important methylation cofactors so maybe it improved tolerance to histamine via up-regulating methylation pathways.
and sugars, juices, same reaction?
have you tried taking probiotics or fermented fooda? And if yes, what was the reaction?

No headaches or migraines, sometimes a bit of a face flush. Feeling drunk was the exact the feeling i had when eating high carb, or like i was poisened. I think some histamine issues are there, but strangely i can eat chocolate or drink wine without issues. Endotoxins maybe? I will try out activated charchoal next week.
2016 i took many antibiotics around a year for lyme, but only one antibiotic stood out: after some days on metronidazole my digestion improved a lot and my eye bags which i have since my teens were gone. It didn't last but maybe this is indicative for sibo/endotoxin. However most of my issues existed as baby (constipation, allergies, ...) which could be heavy metal related. I already did some rounds on the cutler chelation protocol and just taking DMSA really makes me mentally feel better, so this is a route i'm too taking.

Probiotics havn't changed much (VSL#3, mutaflor), but if you feel so completely wrecked maybe you don't notice small improvements. What helps is taking digestion enzymes (enzymedica digest) + ox bile.

What i did noticed is that after some days on high thiamine + b-complex i have much more energy and i'm feeling better. It also seems that b6 is related to my skin cracks on the finger. In the b-complex there is 10mg of p5p, but when rebuilding the b-complex without b6, i get skin issues just one day later. Taking B6 heals the skin cracks also around one day later. Really cool if you ask me.

One big mystery is my derealization/disassociation which i got last year around juli 2019 just 1-2 month before i took the inactive b6. Somewhere i've read that the inactive form of B6 can block the active b6. Some people get neuropathy from it, maybe other like me get mental issues like derealization. The onset was rather slow and not instant. This would explain why i can resolve skin issues with active b6, although enough inactive b6 is floating around.

I have some SNPs for methylation issues and did have huge improvements on 3-5mg methylfolate, but that lasted only one week and resulted in a 2 week depression phase afterwards.

I get sometimes tired after lunch and also noted that with a co-worker. Especially with salty foods. For me that is a sign of dehydration, two glasses of water and I am up and running again. Try it out!

The feeling of tiredness i got was much more profound, like somebody drags you physically down. I couldn't keep the eyes open, couldn't focus and just had to lay down and sleep. Now after thiamine and the b-complex that feeling vanished. I just ate around 100gr of white rice with protein and i'm full of energy (+ enzymes + ox bile).

Suggest you try either allithiamine or thiamine pyrophosphate. Some people react badly to thiamine HCl. If you start with high doses, you will have major side effects but might end up healing more quickly (Lonsdale says they usually end in 30 days). Instead, you could titrate up from a starting dose that doesn't cause any side effects. You can double the dose every day till you start noticing it, stay at that level till effects subside at least 4-5 days, then increase again.

I can't get allithiamine here in germany without shipping from us, but i can get benfotiamine. The idea with titration is good, i will try it out.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

No headaches or migraines, sometimes a bit of a face flush. Feeling drunk was the exact the feeling i had when eating high carb, or like i was poisened. I think some histamine issues are there, but strangely i can eat chocolate or drink wine without issues. Endotoxins maybe? I will try out activated charchoal next week.
2016 i took many antibiotics around a year for lyme, but only one antibiotic stood out: after some days on metronidazole my digestion improved a lot and my eye bags which i have since my teens were gone. It didn't last but maybe this is indicative for sibo/endotoxin. However most of my issues existed as baby (constipation, allergies, ...) which could be heavy metal related. I already did some rounds on the cutler chelation protocol and just taking DMSA really makes me mentally feel better, so this is a route i'm too taking.

Probiotics havn't changed much (VSL#3, mutaflor), but if you feel so completely wrecked maybe you don't notice small improvements. What helps is taking digestion enzymes (enzymedica digest) + ox bile.

What i did noticed is that after some days on high thiamine + b-complex i have much more energy and i'm feeling better. It also seems that b6 is related to my skin cracks on the finger. In the b-complex there is 10mg of p5p, but when rebuilding the b-complex without b6, i get skin issues just one day later. Taking B6 heals the skin cracks also around one day later. Really cool if you ask me.

One big mystery is my derealization/disassociation which i got last year around juli 2019 just 1-2 month before i took the inactive b6. Somewhere i've read that the inactive form of B6 can block the active b6. Some people get neuropathy from it, maybe other like me get mental issues like derealization. The onset was rather slow and not instant. This would explain why i can resolve skin issues with active b6, although enough inactive b6 is floating around.

I have some SNPs for methylation issues and did have huge improvements on 3-5mg methylfolate, but that lasted only one week and resulted in a 2 week depression phase afterwards.


The feeling of tiredness i got was much more profound, like somebody drags you physically down. I couldn't keep the eyes open, couldn't focus and just had to lay down and sleep. Now after thiamine and the b-complex that feeling vanished. I just ate around 100gr of white rice with protein and i'm full of energy (+ enzymes + ox bile).

I can't get allithiamine here in germany without shipping from us, but i can get benfotiamine. The idea with titration is good, i will try it out.

My experience with benfotiamine is not favorable -- it raised my blood glucose by 10 mg/dL.