There Is Probably No Limit To Human Lifespan

[tankasnowgod]

capitalism would be great if someone tried it.

As you say @tankasnowgod we are in a situation where our economy is mostly a corporate fascist one, run for the benefit of giant corporations and wealthy families. It has always been thus. And "democracy" is the worst system as it encourages EVERYONE to try to steal from everyone else.

It is a "soak the rich and the well off and the producers" system so that vast numbers of "voters" can sponge.

Drug companies use their privileged position to capture and control the FDA, and this goes back through history as a normal feature of "regulation".

Ray is very, very misguided in his political beliefs and in this, I am not disappointed because he is only my health guru not my politics and economics guru.

Anyway, gosh, this thread is supposed to be about lifespan, LOL.

Ha, totally agree.

Back to the lifespan thing..... I do believe we will all meet with an end at some point, but the idea that we max out at around 120, with useful lifespan largely being over at 70-80..... that I certainly don't believe. I believe those numbers could be increased, and increased dramatically, if, IF, we were living better lifestyles, usually related to all the things we discuss on this forum.

I do think we could potentially double, or more, both of those estimated limits I mentioned, but if we simply stopped some of the more obvious artificial things (like iron fortification, pushing PUFA on the population, getting more Red Light), I think adding 10 to 20 years to those spans could be relatively easily acheived.

 

[ecstatichamster]

in biological systems, there are cells that live forever and there are animals and plants with long lived regenerative capacity. There has been no reason for nature to have us humans waste a lot of biological energy and resources on this regenerative capacity, but it could be put back into the cells I would think.

 

[mt_dreams]

Well, my disagreement with you boils down to the definition of the word "capitalism." According to dictionary.com, the definition is -

1. an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production,distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

By that definition, "capitalism" hasn't existed in the United States in the past century. The use of the word "capitalism" is moving away from that definition colloquially, and I'm finding it has less and less meaning. So, getting away from that word, I am very pro free market, and over the past century, the markets in the US have been sliding away from freedom, to greater and greater centralized control.

As to the points I bolded... the modern left isn't capitalistic in the slightest. They are full on socialists at this point, and are outright rejecting the ideas of free market and capitalism. People on the right at the very least pay lip service to these ideals, though conviction varies greatly. Some are ONLY paying lip service, while others truly do believe and fight for these ideals.

As for the idea of the Rockefellers being capitalist..... that's laughable. They are the absolute antithesis of capitalism. They want to centralize and control the world... with The Rockefellers being one of the main controllers at the head, of course. That is why The Trilateral Commission was founded in the first place. The Rockefeller's present themselves as capitalist, but they envision themselves as Socialist rulers in the image of Stalin, though with a far, far, far lower body count.

I think the confusion in all this steamed from the fact we were looking at it from 2 different modes of observation. i agree, capitalism & socialism, especially pre 20th century were definitely different modes of operating under. i was more referencing capitalizing, as in all forms of life take advantage of (capitalize on) opportunity, be it viruses, fungi, plants, animals, etc. I grew up in sports, maybe that's where I got the sign post from. The rockefellar ex was used to show that even when capitalism was truer, it did not run like idea of capitalism would suggest. I could have gone even further back to the trade corp monopolies several hundred years prior, the same type of 'capitalizing on' took place. this being many acts of bullying, sabotage, cheating, lying, and other authoritative tricks (both legal & illegal) to come out on top, crush the competition, and control the industry. Just like we've never seen true socialism at play, we've never truly seen real capitalism either. the human traits that deal with power, control, greed, etc, have always manifested themselves at some point in the process. The big sectors (corps) of life, being energy, health, finance, food, material tech, etc, appear to always have become authoritative once someone got out ahead of the competition.

I agree that socialist are not 'capitalists', but they are 'capitalizing on' the situation they helped create, which is creating monopolies within the sectors they are trying to control ... this was the point I was trying to make in the post you originally replied to. had I used better vocab from the start, maybe there wouldn't have been this confusion. anyways, it's the same capitalizing that bush used after 9/11 to implement the new idea cards (among other authoritative actions) every american will need in the next year or so to travel, even within the US.

The 2 party system sucks. imo there should be at least 7 groups within the current 2 parties. maybe then we'd be able to make some headway into fixing the authoritative corruption. I'm big on small government aka just leave me the heck alone as long as I'm not assaulting (old term, not new pc term) something. but the only way that works is when regular citizens are politically educated like back in the post enlightenment era prior to the birth of show business & picture screens. too many uneducated/emotionally driven people in both parties have a voice/strong presence, and we're currently living under what appears to be mob rule in order to orchestrate their justification on authoritative actions/laws.

and yeah as hamster just pointed out, I may have hijacked this topic. devilistic traits (a departure from the garden) has been present in humans (or at least the control of humans) for many thousands of years, thus our true greatness of both mind & body has not been allowed to be fully realized.

 

[mt_dreams]

in biological systems, there are cells that live forever and there are animals and plants with long lived regenerative capacity. There has been no reason for nature to have us humans waste a lot of biological energy and resources on this regenerative capacity, but it could be put back into the cells I would think.

long before i hijacked this thread, i mentioned that techno humans woulds lead to much longer lives. the merging of salamander dna for ex will allow a regenerative possibility not currently found in human dna. this is only one aspect, but we'll definitely be playing god in the next couple hundred years to come, and the 1%, or 1% or 1% will soon reap the benefits of all this.

 

[Mauritio]

Food of the long-lived has high contents of polyunsaturated fatty acids and biologically most valuable linoleic acid taken with maize/corn and sunflower oil. However cholesterol is lacking in their food

So, what do we make of that?! High PUFA and low cholesterol doesnt seem like a combination to thrive on.
Maybe they are consuming a lot of Vitamin E or other substances that decrease the damage done by PUFA ...

 

[Amazoniac]

So, what do we make of that?! High PUFA and low cholesterol doesnt seem like a combination to thrive on.
Maybe they are consuming a lot of Vitamin E or other substances that decrease the damage done by PUFA ...

Guru, have you read the note after that?

 

[nwo2012]

Well i plan on living forever so good thread

 

[AJA]

I use to do medical rounds with a doctor in nursing homes back in my consulting days. The seniors that were comfortable in their own skin, especially the ones who could tolerate themselves when alone, seems to be the happiest - at least out of the ones with the least dementia. Ultimately, we are probably going to be alone if we outlive the others close to us. How we handle that, depends a lot on the the relationship we have with ourselves.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Being financially comfortable. Having a web of meaningful relationships. Seem to be key.

 

[Travis]

The current ruling dogma in medicine is that human longevity is most likely genetically determined, and seems to be capped at about 125 years. The main arguments given in favor if this hypothesis are the apparently exponentially rising odds of dying with increasing age and the fact that no (officially) confirmed cases of human longevity beyond the age of 125 are known to science. Both of these claims do not survive closer scrutiny. People living well-beyond 125 years of age are known to science, with the most recent case shown below.
Shirali Muslimov - Wikipedia

Peat also mentioned this a few times and attributed the longevity of these people to their diet low in PUFA and living in an environment of high CO2.
Fats, functions and malfunctions.
"...Animals that naturally have a relatively low level of the highly unsaturated fats in their tissues have the greatest longevity. For example, the naked mole rate has a life expectancy of more than 28 years, about 9 times as long as other rodents of a similar size. Only about 2% to 6% of its phospholipids contain DHA, while about 27% to 57% of the phospholipids of mice contain DHA Mitchell, et al., 2007). The famously long-lived people of Azerbaijan eat a diet containing a low ratio of unsaturated to saturated fats, emphasizing fruits, vegetables, and dairy products (Grigorov, et al., 1991)."

Other cases of extreme longevity have been reported in China, Tibet, and among the Native Indians living on high plateaus in the Andes. However, these examples are rejected by scientists as "impossible" and thus not well publicized in the Western world.
The study below provided evidence against the first claim of the dogma mentioned above - i.e. the fact that the odds of dying increase exponentially with age. The study found that while the odds do increase for the first 105 years, after that they flatten out and even decrease slightly, which suggests there is no hard limit to human longevity. While this study was a statistical analysis and not something that focused on the biological origins of longevity, it matches well with Peat's opinion on the topic.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-travis-corner.21611/page-22#post-312475
"...I have never seen evidence that they ((our bodies)) contain any principle of mortality, and in recent years the suspicion that we contain all the equipment needed for perpetual renewal, given the right circumstances, is seeming to be increasingly plausible."

Now, the next step in the right direction for the authors of the study below would be to get out of the mentality that this extreme longevity is genetic and instead link it with metabolic intensity, diet, and lack of chronic stress. Unfortunately, extending human lifespan goes against the official policy and budgetary calculations of pretty much every nation on Earth. So, I would not expect studies on easy/cheap interventions for extending lifespan indefinitely to be well-received or ever funded officially.

The plateau of human mortality: Demography of longevity pioneers
Study Suggests There's No Limit on Longevity, But Getting Super Old Is Still Tough | Smart News | Smithsonian

"...According to a controversial study released in 2016, which analyzed data from 40 different countries, the average person could make it to 115 with the right genes and interventions, and a few genetic superstars would be able to make it to 125. But that was it, they argued. There was a wall of mortality that medicine and positive thinking simply cannot overcome. But not everyone is convinced by that data. That’s why for the new paper in the journal Science, researchers looked at the lifespans of 3,836 people in Italy who reached the age of 105 or older between 2009 and 2015, with their ages verified by birth certificates. What they found is that the Gompertz law goes a little haywire around the century mark. According to a press release, a 90 year old woman has a 15 percent chance of dying in the next year, and an estimated six years left to live. At age 95, the chance of dying per year jumps to 24 percent. At the age of 105, the chance of dying makes another leap to 50 percent. But then, surprisingly, it levels off, even past 110. In other words, at least statistically, each year some lucky person could flip the coin of life, and if it comes up heads every time, they could live beyond 115 or 125. “Our data tell us that there is no fixed limit to the human lifespan yet in sight,” senior author Kenneth Wachter of UC Berkeley says in the release. “Not only do we see mortality rates that stop getting worse with age, we see them getting slightly better over time.”"

Nice. I think that low vitamin C is the primary cause of wrinkles and mostly because ascorbate is needed for procollagen synthesis. Supporting this idea is the well-established fact that nitric oxide from cigarette smoke depletes vitamin C, and also that smokers tend to have more wrinkles. Avoiding smoke-induced wrinkles can probably be done by choosing tobacco without added ammonia, which is harder than you might think. Ammonia is added to essentially all commercial tobacco to raise the pH, leading to more nicotine in its nonionic basic form. As far as I can determine: Added ammonia is the pyrolysis precursor for nitric oxide found in tobacco smoke, the primary cause of lung cancer.

[More specifically, it could really be the nitrosonium ion formed upon reacting with heme iron in oxidizing conditions. The nitrosonium ion is a positively charged electrophile that forms carcinogenic nitrosamines upon reacting with amino groups.]

Gamma-tocopherol adducts-with nitrogen dioxide and peroxynitrite in vitro and in vivo on the cell membrane, and its' short-chain metabolite γ-CEHC does the same in the water phase. Avoiding vitamin C depletion can be accomplished taking γ-tocopherol, or 'mixed tocopherols.'

Cooney, Robert. "Gamma-tocopherol detoxification of nitrogen dioxide: superiority to alpha-tocopherol." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1993)​

Based on its chemical properties established in vitro, it should then be no surprise that it powerfully inhibits lung cancer:

Lambert, Joshua. "Inhibition of lung cancer growth in mice by dietary mixed tocopherols." Molecular nutrition & food research (2009)

'Dietary treatment with 0.1 and 0.3% γTmT for 50 days inhibited the growth of CL13 tumors in A/J mice by 53.9 and 80.5%, respectively.' ―Lambert​

And simply taking safe amounts of ascorbate or eating raw food should help, as this vitamin increases procollagen synthesis exponentially:

Chan, D. "Regulation of procollagen synthesis and processing during ascorbate-induced extracellular matrix accumulation in vitro." Biochemical journal (1990)

​

 

[Travis]

Are there any real life examples so far?

I have never told anyone this, but I am two thousand years old (lol).

 

[Obi-wan]

Nice. I think that low vitamin C is the primary cause of wrinkles and mostly because ascorbate is needed for procollagen synthesis. Supporting this idea is the well-established fact that nitric oxide from cigarette smoke depletes vitamin C, and also that smokers tend to have more wrinkles. Avoiding smoke-induced wrinkles can probably be done by choosing tobacco without added ammonia, which is harder than you might think. Ammonia is added to essentially all commercial tobacco to raise the pH, leading to more nicotine in its nonionic basic form. As far as I can determine: Added ammonia is the pyrolysis precursor for nitric oxide found in tobacco smoke, the primary cause of lung cancer.

[More specifically, it could really be the nitrosonium ion formed upon reacting with heme iron in oxidizing conditions. The nitrosonium ion is a positively charged electrophile that forms carcinogenic nitrosamines upon reacting with amino groups.]

Gamma-tocopherol adducts-with nitrogen dioxide and peroxynitrite in vitro and in vivo on the cell membrane, and its' short-chain metabolite γ-CEHC does the same in the water phase. Avoiding vitamin C depletion can be accomplished taking γ-tocopherol, or 'mixed tocopherols.'

Cooney, Robert. "Gamma-tocopherol detoxification of nitrogen dioxide: superiority to alpha-tocopherol." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1993)​

Based on its chemical properties established in vitro, it should then be no surprise that it powerfully inhibits lung cancer:

Lambert, Joshua. "Inhibition of lung cancer growth in mice by dietary mixed tocopherols." Molecular nutrition & food research (2009)

'Dietary treatment with 0.1 and 0.3% γTmT for 50 days inhibited the growth of CL13 tumors in A/J mice by 53.9 and 80.5%, respectively.' ―Lambert​

And simply taking safe amounts of ascorbate or eating raw food should help, as this vitamin increases procollagen synthesis exponentially:

Chan, D. "Regulation of procollagen synthesis and processing during ascorbate-induced extracellular matrix accumulation in vitro." Biochemical journal (1990)

View attachment 9894​

Phillip Morris secretly started adding ammonia to their Marlboro brand of cigarettes making it taste better and more addictive thus the Marlboro brand became the best seller along with the Marlboro Man advertising. It was also the chemical that made cigarette smoke a direct cause to lung cancer and became the smoking gun for the States to sue Phillip Morris which they did.

From Wikipedia-

The red and white package was designed by the designer Frank Gianninoto. The emblem is placed on top of the pack and has the popular Latin expression Veni, vidi, vici ("I came; I saw; I conquered"), authored by Julius Caesar. The repositioning of Marlboro as a men's cigarette was handled by Chicago advertiser Leo Burnett. The proposed campaign was to present a lineup of manly figures: sea captains, weightlifters, war correspondents, construction workers, etc. The cowboy was to have been the first in this series. While Philip Morris was concerned about the campaign, they eventually gave the green light.[8]

Marlboro's market share rose from less than one percent to the fourth best-selling brand. This convinced Philip Morris to drop the lineup of manly figures and stick with the cowboy,[8] later known as the Marlboro Man. From 1963, the television advertisements used Elmer Bernstein's theme from The Magnificent Seven.

In the late 1960s, Marlboro "Longhorn 100's" were introduced. Although colour-coded with gold, they were full flavor cigarettes, not lights.[9] In 1972, Marlboro became the best-selling brand of tobacco in the world.[10][11]

Wikipedia failed to mention that the added ammonia made it the best selling cigarette and a direct cause to lung cancer...which the scientists at Phillip Morris knew and was later uncovered in their internal memos. Thus major lawsuits by various States.

To be "cool" a pack of Marlboros was usually rolled up in a white tee shirt sleeve so all could see you were a "man" and tough like the "Marlboro Man"

 

[haidut]

Nice. I think that low vitamin C is the primary cause of wrinkles and mostly because ascorbate is needed for procollagen synthesis. Supporting this idea is the well-established fact that nitric oxide from cigarette smoke depletes vitamin C, and also that smokers tend to have more wrinkles. Avoiding smoke-induced wrinkles can probably be done by choosing tobacco without added ammonia, which is harder than you might think. Ammonia is added to essentially all commercial tobacco to raise the pH, leading to more nicotine in its nonionic basic form. As far as I can determine: Added ammonia is the pyrolysis precursor for nitric oxide found in tobacco smoke, the primary cause of lung cancer.

[More specifically, it could really be the nitrosonium ion formed upon reacting with heme iron in oxidizing conditions. The nitrosonium ion is a positively charged electrophile that forms carcinogenic nitrosamines upon reacting with amino groups.]

Gamma-tocopherol adducts-with nitrogen dioxide and peroxynitrite in vitro and in vivo on the cell membrane, and its' short-chain metabolite γ-CEHC does the same in the water phase. Avoiding vitamin C depletion can be accomplished taking γ-tocopherol, or 'mixed tocopherols.'

Cooney, Robert. "Gamma-tocopherol detoxification of nitrogen dioxide: superiority to alpha-tocopherol." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1993)​

Based on its chemical properties established in vitro, it should then be no surprise that it powerfully inhibits lung cancer:

Lambert, Joshua. "Inhibition of lung cancer growth in mice by dietary mixed tocopherols." Molecular nutrition & food research (2009)

'Dietary treatment with 0.1 and 0.3% γTmT for 50 days inhibited the growth of CL13 tumors in A/J mice by 53.9 and 80.5%, respectively.' ―Lambert​

And simply taking safe amounts of ascorbate or eating raw food should help, as this vitamin increases procollagen synthesis exponentially:

Chan, D. "Regulation of procollagen synthesis and processing during ascorbate-induced extracellular matrix accumulation in vitro." Biochemical journal (1990)

View attachment 9894​

Very interesting, thanks. Inosine and methylene blue are other scavengers of reactive nitrogen species (NOS) so maybe they could be used as well? Do you know of any commercial vendor that does not use ammonia for tobacco processing? Do "organic" brands like American Spirit also add ammonia? Is the ammonia only for cigarettes or for bulk packed tobacco leaves as well?

 

[Wagner83]

Is Shirali Muslimov a Russian who reveres Allah?

 

[Travis]

Very interesting, thanks. Inosine and methylene blue are other scavengers of reactive nitrogen species (NOS) so maybe they could be used as well? Do you know of any commercial vendor that does not use ammonia for tobacco processing? Do "organic" brands like American Spirit also add ammonia? Is the ammonia only for cigarettes or for bulk packed tobacco leaves as well?

American Spirit does add ammonia, and you can certainly tell from the nicotine availability. This practice is so prevalent that one is essentially forced to roll their own cigarettes or cigars.

 

[haidut]

Before I start, I want to make it clear that what I am about to say does not disprove their hypothesis.

However, the statistics of declining mortality have a very obvious potential explanation. That is, what if genetics really does account for most of longevity? The 105+ mark could simply be a gap. Genetics are digital (either/or) and therefore would not be expected to be incremental nor to necessarily follow a regular distribution.

In fact, any digital extrinsic factor could explain it. For example, once somebody reaches a precious age (such as 105) perhaps they are provided greater care and resources by family and community?

Again, none of this is a clear refutation of their hypothesis. But similarly, their hypothesis is far from proven . . .

It is theoretically possible, but the "immortality" or "longevity" gene has been hotly pursued for more than 80 years and the nothing as found. The closest they were able to come to a genetic factor was the Klotho protein.

 

[haidut]

Is Shirali Muslimov a Russian who reveres Allah?

I think he was an Muslim Azeri (from Azerbaidjan). So, more of a Central Asian ancestry probably and not a Slav.

 

[haidut]

Think everyone died young in ancient societies? Think again
Think everyone died young in ancient societies? Think again | Aeon Ideas

Thanks for this post. It actually illustrates the great myth propagated by modern medicine and its goons to convince people that the massive price tag that comes with it is worth it.
"...You might have seen the cartoon: two cavemen sitting outside their cave knapping stone tools. One says to the other: ‘Something’s just not right – our air is clean, our water is pure, we all get plenty of exercise, everything we eat is organic and free-range, and yet nobody lives past 30.’ This cartoon reflects a very common view of ancient lifespans, but it is based on a myth. People in the past were not all dead by 30. Ancient documents confirm this. In the 24th century BCE, the Egyptian Vizier Ptahhotep wrote verses about the disintegrations of old age. The ancient Greeks classed old age among the divine curses, and their tombstones attest to survival well past 80 years. Ancient artworks and figurines also depict elderly people: stooped, flabby, wrinkled."

In reality, the maximum lifespan has not moved an inch since ancient times and judging the plenty of stories of extreme longevity in the past and the lack of any today, I suspect maximum lifespan dropped actually. Peat even suggested that some cultures of the not so distant past had Biblical-like longevity rivaling Methuselah.
The problem of Alzheimer's disease as a clue to immortality Part 2
"...They are advancing a myth about human nature, so I will advance a counter-myth. At the time people were growing their large brains they lived in the tropics. I suggest that in this time before the development of grain-based agriculture, they ate a diet that was relatively free of unsaturated fats and low in iron--based on tropical fruits. I suggest that the Boskop skull from Mt. Kilimanjaro was representative of people under those conditions, and that just by our present knowledge of the association of brain size with longevity, they--as various "Golden Age" myths claim--must have had a very long life-span. As people moved north and developed new ways of living, their consumption of unsaturated fats increased, their brain size decreased, and they aged rapidly. Neanderthal relics show that flaxseed was a staple of their diet."

 

[haidut]

This website: Michael Rose's 55 essentially says that if we switch to a pre-agricultural diet we might end up not aging.

I could not agree more. Agriculture was the first example of empires putting money into "central" programs for creating cheap source of food that could keep a massive amount of poor people alive and working, but not really healthy. Not much in that attitude has changed over the last 3,000 years. The main tasks of modern countries are still mainly related to feeding a large population, while being only peripherally concerned about health unless there is a danger of infectious disease that can decimate the population of working slaves and thus affect profits of the elite.

 

[Wagner83]

I think he was an Muslim Azeri (from Azerbaidjan). So, more of a Central Asian ancestry probably and not a Slav.

I just meant a pun with Muslim + ov but I guess the bad pun was the reason for the name in the first place.

I could not agree more. Agriculture was the first example of empires putting money into "central" programs for creating cheap source of food that could keep a massive amount of poor people alive and working, but not really healthy. Not much in that attitude has changed over the last 3,000 years. The main tasks of modern countries are still mainly related to feeding a large population, while being only peripherally concerned about health unless there is a danger of infectious disease that can decimate the population of working slaves and thus affect profits of the elite.

I'm not convinced most emperors or kings who had access to an abundance of foods fared well in terms of health. It would be interesting to know.