There Are No Giant Conspiracies

schultz

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Good god I love this place and the people in it. Great vibes

We love you too man! :balloon:

A lot of people seem to be talking about Universal Basic Income like it's a good idea, it isn't.

I liked Milton Friedman's take on it, although I don't know much about economics admittedly because I find it incredibly boring. But I think his would involve dissolving all other government welfare programs and stuff.
 

michael94

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What's the problem? Money is just an accounting entity, why should it not be created as needed? I think the problem is that the state does not create enough money, so there is too much debt.
Effortless and endless income for a chosen group of people is not what I would call "accounting", maybe as some sort of sick euphemism. The total amount of debt exceeds the total amount of money btw because of how money is created, so it can never be paid off.
 
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Hugh Johnson

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In the United States, the State doesn't really create any money. The Federal Reserve does. It's a weird, Quasi-Private Entity, owned by the major bankers, in partnership with the Federal Government. That's where the bulk of Federal Debt comes from- "Borrowing" money into existence from the Federal Reserve.

The biggest problem with a centralized authority creating money out of thin air, however, is that that is what truly creates inflation. It's effects aren't felt until the money goes around the economy a few times, creating a situation where the creators and first ones to spend it get more value from a dollar (or whatever unit of currency) that the person 20-30-40 transactions away. Like taxes, its a great way to pull real wealth upwards, away from people.
The Fed is a state entity. Secondly, federal bonds are in practice a form of currency, so any federal deficit is money creation, twice in fact.

Thirdly, inflation is not the issue m lack of aggregate demand to maintain full employment and lack of income to fulfill debt obligations is.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Effortless and endless income for a chosen group of people is not what I would call "accounting", maybe as some sort of sick euphemism. The total amount of debt exceeds the total amount of money btw because of how money is created, so it can never be paid off.
What would you prefer? A gold standard in which money is not created and the rich get richer by hoarding money, debts can never be serviced because the amount of money in circulation keeps getting smaller and the economy can not grow and unemployment keeps going up until the system breaks?

Other than that, you are discussing who gets the money, and that is a separate issue of distribution.
 

tankasnowgod

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Promotion of junk and crappy food because the Illuminati want the world's people sick and docile? No, its because this one guy really wants to have some side income so he invests into starting a Mcdonald's franchise. He doesn't care that humanity is becoming weaker, or the obesity rate is climbing. As long as he makes his $8-10K per month which let's him pay his mortgage and feed his family, he's happy. Then more and more individuals buy franchises cause they want the same thing.

Franchisees have to invest $1-2 Million into a McDonald's Franchise, so I don't know if they are all that happy the first 6-10 years, simply getting back to 0 while putting in lots of work to get there. Also, McDonald's used to be great. Up until the 80s, they provided good, healthy food prepared fast for a low price. It was the Top Down demonizing of Saturated Fat that eventually lead them to drop frying in Beef Tallow in exchange for vegetable oils (which have continued to get more and more unsaturated with the war on hydrogenation). So, not a great example.

Oh prescriptions must be some big pharmaceutical conspiracy designed to control the masses. Not really, its individual doctors and sales reps who just want to make their income. As long as this one scientist can develop something that kindof works, he gets his paycheck that lets him take a trip with his wife. Then if this sales rep can convince doctors to prescribe it, he gets his commission which lets him pay this month's car payments. Then if this doctor sees enough patients, he gets to buy that BMW he's been eyeing. Where's the CEO in all this? Probably some workaholic with a crazy ego who wants his multi million dollar bonus for hitting the revenue goals.

If you truly believe this..... why are you even on the Ray Peat Forum? What, exactly, would be preventing doctors from making their income by, say, actually helping people get well? Why can't sales reps convince doctors to prescribe useful and safe medications? The corrupting of the entire pharma industry and FDA has been well documented in this forum, and Beatrice Golomb does a great job exposing much of the entrenched corruption in this 20 minute talk-



Let's see, fraud, coercion, threats, bribery, and blackmail, involving pharma companies, medical journals, regulatory agencies, false front patient groups, researchers, doctors, and universities? Sound like a conspiracy to me. A pretty giant one, at that.
 
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michael94

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What would you prefer? A gold standard in which money is not created and the rich get richer by hoarding money, debts can never be serviced because the amount of money in circulation keeps getting smaller and the economy can not grow and unemployment keeps going up until the system breaks?

Other than that, you are discussing who gets the money, and that is a separate issue of distribution.
Gold is not money, Money is a voucher for completed labor ( and thus represents what one will trade labor for i.e. Land, Metals, Food, etc.). Gold has value but it is not necessary as a standard.

All Private Banks should be outlawed as they are criminal organizations making money out of thin air either partially with Fractional Reserve Banking or as I described in my original post, creating entire loans entirely out of thin air. Private banks are basically operating as the master and commander of money flow within the economy without having any legitimate reason for this power. Outlaw private banks and make buy their property to be branches of the State Bank. The State Bank will issue currency as Fiat but only in return for Work or Resources. Very simple.

The legitimacy of such currency must be defended at the cost of one's life, as money is exchanged for years of blood, sweat and tears. If the state is found to be spuriously allocating Fiat then they are to be revolted against.

Outstanding debt remaining towards private banks on mortgages, business loans etc. can remain valid but only on the original principal with no interest. And that is being generous to the Banks really.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Gold is not money, Money is a voucher for completed labor ( and thus represents what one will trade labor for i.e. Land, Metals, Food, etc.). Gold has value but it is not necessary as a standard.

All Private Banks should be outlawed as they are criminal organizations making money out of thin air either partially with Fractional Reserve Banking or as I described in my original post, creating entire loans entirely out of thin air. Private banks are basically operating as the master and commander of money flow within the economy without having any legitimate reason for this power. Outlaw private banks and make buy their property to be branches of the State Bank. The State Bank will issue currency as Fiat but only in return for Work or Resources. Very simple.

The legitimacy of such currency must be defended at the cost of one's life, as money is exchanged for years of blood, sweat and tears. If the state is found to be spuriously allocating Fiat then they are to be revolted against.

Outstanding debt remaining towards private banks on mortgages, business loans etc. can remain valid but only on the original principal with no interest. And that is being generous to the Banks really.
Your solution requires a command economy. That's not going to work.
 

Hugh Johnson

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I dont understand the term command economy as it's the first time I've heard of it. You have to explain what is wrong and what will be better.
These are basic terms. This is like you asking me to explain what is a carbohydrate, after you have given long dietary recommendations to people.

Go read Bill Mitchell, Randal Wray and Stephanie Kelton. You need an actual basis to understand the topic.
 

tankasnowgod

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The Fed is a state entity.

No, it's not. This is well documented. See, The Creature From Jekyll Island. Or Aaron Russo's "America: From Freedom to Fascism." It's no more a State entity than Raytheon is.

You can also see this if you look at historical money. The US Treasury (a government entity) issued United States Notes, until the 1960s. The Federal Reserve (a Private Entity) issues Federal Reserve Notes. Both were in circulation at the same time for about 5 decades, now it's only Federal Reserve Notes.
 

michael94

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These are basic terms. This is like you asking me to explain what is a carbohydrate, after you have given long dietary recommendations to people.

Go read Bill Mitchell, Randal Wray and Stephanie Kelton. You need an actual basis to understand the topic.
It's fine, I googled it. Exchanging money for work and resources I dont see as a problem, only because one can't really trade effectively without some sort of currency in the modern economy. So the currency notes have to come from somewhere. A banker going BEEP BOOP BOOP on his computer screen to make a private loan with money that didnt exist before is a much bigger problem. Private banks are not accountable to anyone and get to play God of the economy. That is not "capitalism" that is crime.
 

Hugh Johnson

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It's fine, I googled it. Exchanging money for work and resources I dont see as a problem, only because one can't really trade effectively without some sort of currency in the modern economy. So the currency notes have to come from somewhere. A banker going BEEP BOOP BOOP on his computer screen to make a private loan with money that didnt exist before is a much bigger problem. Private banks are not accountable to anyone and get to play God of the economy. That is not "capitalism" that is crime.
There are so many factors that go into this that you can not have an informed opinion on this just like that.

Is there any are of life you know about? Perhaps the English language is an example you can relate to. If someone understands a word, he still can not form or understand sentences. There is grammar and context he lacks. That's at the level you are at, repeating words.

You need to go do some reading.
 

Hugh Johnson

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No, it's not. This is well documented. See, The Creature From Jekyll Island. Or Aaron Russo's "America: From Freedom to Fascism." It's no more a State entity than Raytheon is.

You can also see this if you look at historical money. The US Treasury (a government entity) issued United States Notes, until the 1960s. The Federal Reserve (a Private Entity) issues Federal Reserve Notes. Both were in circulation at the same time for about 5 decades, now it's only Federal Reserve Notes.
The Fed was created by the state, it's board is appointed by the state, it's charter depends on the state, the enforcement of the monetary monopoly, and the value value of the money is done by the state.

The separation is a fiction. It is because the ruling class wanted to keep a high unemployment, read Kalecki's The Political Aspects of Unemployment, for why.

The money goes through the banking system because it makes it look independent and gives them a pretext so there is no democratic discussion on money creation. The Fed should really just be a desk in the Treasury.
 

LeeLemonoil

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@Hugh Johnson

Thanks for your replies above. It’s hard to fathom that many people have so little knowledge even know what money is and how it functions, same goes for credit and interest.
 

mipp

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Conspiracy theories are just the new religion.
This. People need mysteries and myths. In the age of science and surveillance when everyone is carrying a high resolution camera there is no place for miracles, ghosts, aliens and the paranormal. Conspiracies are the only acceptable modern myth.
 

postman

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Conspiracy theories are just the new religion. Frustratingly, a lot of them obscure action against actual crimes that are going in front of people's eyes.

You'll notice they are mainly popular among people who have little to no exposure to the critiques provided by anarchists, socialists and communists (their conservative social programming doesn't allow for it). Having no grounding in a coherent analysis of power within a system lets people to drift off into delusional fantasies.
You have your own ultra-conspiratorial world view, you just think that money is the only reason people would do evil.
 

tankasnowgod

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The Fed was created by the state, it's board is appointed by the state, it's charter depends on the state, the enforcement of the monetary monopoly, and the value value of the money is done by the state.

The separation is a fiction. It is because the ruling class wanted to keep a high unemployment, read Kalecki's The Political Aspects of Unemployment, for why.

The money goes through the banking system because it makes it look independent and gives them a pretext so there is no democratic discussion on money creation. The Fed should really just be a desk in the Treasury.

Again, it's still not a state entity. You are correct that the Federal Reserve act created it, and the Ferderal government appoints the board of governors, but even Wikipedia states it has "public and private components."

"The Federal Reserve System is composed of several layers. It is governed by the presidentially appointed board of governors or Federal Reserve Board (FRB). Twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, located in cities throughout the nation, regulate and oversee privately owned commercial banks.[15][16][17] Nationally chartered commercial banks are required to hold stock in, and can elect some of the board members of, the Federal Reserve Bank of their region. The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) sets monetary policy. It consists of all seven members of the board of governors and the twelve regional Federal Reserve Bank presidents, though only five bank presidents vote at a time (the president of the New York Fed and four others who rotate through one-year voting terms). There are also various advisory councils. Thus, the Federal Reserve System has both public and private components.[list 2] It has a structure unique among central banks, and is also unusual in that the United States Department of the Treasury, an entity outside of the central bank, prints the currency used.[22]"

Does Federal Express hold stock in the Post Office? Does Conagra or Monsanto hold stock in the USDA? Do Merck or Glaxo hold stock in the FDA?

It's not a separation, it's a partnership, which is the word I used in my first statement. You can argue that it's not functionally different from the Central Banks of Europe, which appear to be fully under state control (and G. Edward Griffin makes this point himself), but it's still not a state entity.
 

tankasnowgod

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A gold standard in which money is not created and the rich get richer by hoarding money, debts can never be serviced because the amount of money in circulation keeps getting smaller and the economy can not grow and unemployment keeps going up until the system breaks?

Money can't be created in a gold standard? I guess you haven't heard of "mining."

It could absolutely grow. In fact, discoveries could let it grow at exponential rates, even- TELL OF VAST RICHES IN THE GRAND CANYON; Men Engaged in Gold Dredging Operations Expect to Astonish the World.

It's just far easier to create new money via printing or adding digits in a computer.
 

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