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The Warburg "effect" Is, In Fact, A Direct Cause Of Cancer

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    I now agree with @haidut. Succinate acid is the way to go and am having good results with Cardenosine (ideaLab product). Stopped ACV/BS just doing baking soda. Haidut mentioned it increased succinate dehydrogenase. Also high Taurine with coffee for cellular integrity...
     
  2. Inaut

    Inaut Member

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    I need to buy succinic acid now.....Thanks Obi :)

    Um... anybody bought tablets from Ebay? Really cheap but I'm not sure about quality as they are produced in Russia and I cant read label
     
  3. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    Why not just buy Cardenosine from IdeaLabs?
     
  4. Inaut

    Inaut Member

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    mainly cost. times are tough right now sadly....(although i'm confident cardenosine is well worth it in terms of quality and effect) but 10 bucks gets me 100 tabs. Ingredients are: Succinic Acid 100mg (20%), Glucose, Calcium Stearate and it has a been lab tested ...in Russian language :s
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Glad to hear succinic acid works well. Btw, combined with methylene blue it works even better as it provides an electron acceptor for the succinic acid and that speeds up its conversion into ATP even more.
     
  6. Inaut

    Inaut Member

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  7. Mito

    Mito Member

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    What is your understanding of the degree of mitochondrial function in cancer cells (or even cells moving in the direction of cancer)? Is there still some degree of mitochondrial ATP production via the TCA cycle and some of the ECT complexes in the tumor cells? This review paper argues against the idea of a “switch” that just turns ON glycolysis and OFF oxidative phosphorylation claiming that there is still some mitochondrial ATP production which gives the cancer cells the energy needed to grow.
    E87168D1-5B02-48B1-98B6-8A597B636A66.jpeg
    Fundamentals of cancer metabolism
     
  8. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Sure, there is still some mitochondrial function but not enough to ensure cellular differentiation and stop growth/division. The PDH enzyme is not entirely blocked but is greatly downregulated. Same for cytochrome C oxidase.
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Sure, in combination it would probably be even more effective. So, succinic acid + MB + red light could be a very simple and powerful anti-cancer treatment.
     
  10. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Is that really the case? It seems that at least some tumors increase OxPhos almost as much as glycolysis to get their energy substrates.

    "Thus, human NSCLC tumors display enhanced carbon flow through PDH and the TCA cycle compared to adjacent lung."
    upload_2018-12-18_19-17-45.png

    Cell. 2016 Feb 11;164(4):681-94. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.12.034. Epub 2016 Feb 4.
    Metabolic Heterogeneity in Human Lung Tumors.
    Hensley CT1, Faubert B1, Yuan Q2, Lev-Cohain N3, Jin E4, Kim J1, Jiang L1, Ko B1, Skelton R5, Loudat L5, Wodzak M6, Klimko C1, McMillan E7, Butt Y8, Ni M1, Oliver D8, Torrealba J8, Malloy CR9, Kernstine K10, Lenkinski RE11, DeBerardinis RJ12.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Given that the Warburg effects has been shown to be present so far in every cancer then something does not add up. That lactic acid must be coming from somewhere and if OXPHOS was working so well there won't be much of a Warburg effect.
     
  12. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    What about fructose being easily converted to lactate?
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I don't think fructose is more easily converted to lactate than glucose. Also, unlike glucose, fructose increases PDH activity and should keep lactate lower than other forms of sugar except possibly trehalose. Sucrose and trehalose are non-reducing sugars and as such are preferable to isolated sugars like glucose, fructose, lactose, etc as the former do not shift the redox balance in favor of reduction.
     
  14. Mito

    Mito Member

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    Dr. Thomas Seyfried proposes that OxPhos is not working well in the mitochondria of cancer cells. He claims that most of the ATP production comes from substrate level phosphorylation (TCA cycle) and the ETC is producing a very small percentage of the total ATP produced in the mitochondria of cancer cells.
    731FD338-6B54-4363-B64B-89EB7EE03A7A.jpeg
    6AFF3866-7C76-434D-BFF0-CCC13A95EFA3.jpeg
     
  15. nikkmm

    nikkmm Member

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    Cornell just finished a “trailblazing” study on the Warburg effect a few weeks ago:

    Cancer’s metabolism subject of trailblazing study | Cornell Chronicle

    Link to study, published December 7: Multi-scale computational study of the Warburg effect, reverse Warburg effect and glutamine addiction in solid tumors

    I don’t quite understand what conclusions they drew, other than I think glutamine addiction not being relevant to cancer metabolism. I believe they’re in the camp that advocates for starving the body of glucose in order to starve the cancer.
     
  16. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    "Study"
     
  17. jondoeuk

    jondoeuk Member

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    What??
     
  18. jondoeuk

    jondoeuk Member

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    Different amino acids will need to be targeted Glutamine targeting inhibits systemic metastasis in the VM-M3 murine tumor model Modulating the therapeutic response of tumours to dietary serine and glycine starvation Asparagine bioavailability governs metastasis in a model of breast cancer
     
  19. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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  20. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Thanks, was not aware of his work. Complex I and IV have been shown to be blocked in cancers, and methylene blue can help in both cases.
     
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