TheBeard

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As always, thank you Hans.

When it comes to androgens my experience is limited to testosterone cream to the scrotum and Proviron, both of which give me badly agitated sleep.

I hypothesise it's from DHT amping up my neurotransmitters or my alertness by another pathway, which is the only downside to androgen supplementations.

I also have reduced libido, which may be from DHT opposing estrogens too much, which is an issue @Broco6679 also seems to have.

I desperatly want it to work for me, as I believe in this research, but I feel like a life on DHT will shorten it by a few decades from exhaustion.
 

Charger

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As always, thank you Hans.

When it comes to androgens my experience is limited to testosterone cream to the scrotum and Proviron, both of which give me badly agitated sleep.

I hypothesise it's from DHT amping up my neurotransmitters or my alertness by another pathway, which is the only downside to androgen supplementations.

I also have reduced libido, which may be from DHT opposing estrogens too much, which is an issue @Broco6679 also seems to have.

I desperatly want it to work for me, as I believe in this research, but I feel like a life on DHT will shorten it by a few decades from exhaustion.

My experience with Proviron is similar I think... it doesn't seem to ramp up libido. I feel very GO-GO-GO! at work, almost too aggressive, energy is way up, but I feel less sociable/lack of sense of humor which I imagine is due to opposing estrogen too much.

I love the physical benefits I've felt when using some androgenic stuff like Proviron and some SERMs. Having high drive/motivation, never feeling tired, not feeling aches and pains when working a physically active job is awesome, but I feel a little too... rawr. Been trying to find that perfect middle ground of high drive, desire, productivity, sociability, etc.
 

Hans

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As always, thank you Hans.

When it comes to androgens my experience is limited to testosterone cream to the scrotum and Proviron, both of which give me badly agitated sleep.

I hypothesise it's from DHT amping up my neurotransmitters or my alertness by another pathway, which is the only downside to androgen supplementations.

I also have reduced libido, which may be from DHT opposing estrogens too much, which is an issue @Broco6679 also seems to have.

I desperatly want it to work for me, as I believe in this research, but I feel like a life on DHT will shorten it by a few decades from exhaustion.
DHT increases NMDA receptor binding, which could most likely cause that agitation feeling. GABA can help to block, so that might be why you feel better with adding progesterone to the mix. Perhaps you can add additional NMDA antagonists and see if that helps.
 

Hans

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My experience with Proviron is similar I think... it doesn't seem to ramp up libido. I feel very GO-GO-GO! at work, almost too aggressive, energy is way up, but I feel less sociable/lack of sense of humor which I imagine is due to opposing estrogen too much.

I love the physical benefits I've felt when using some androgenic stuff like Proviron and some SERMs. Having high drive/motivation, never feeling tired, not feeling aches and pains when working a physically active job is awesome, but I feel a little too... rawr. Been trying to find that perfect middle ground of high drive, desire, productivity, sociability, etc.
DHT also increases vasopressin, which is involved with aggression. I don't it has anything to do with estrogen, since estrogen can also cause a manic energy through excess glutamate.
Not sure why you would feel less social or lack of humor though. Perhaps also mediated through excess NMDA receptor activation.
 

Charger

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DHT also increases vasopressin, which is involved with aggression.

This is opposite of what's posted on your site regarding DHT here: "Inhibits the aromatase, lowers estrogen levels and inhibits vasopressin." ;)

Anyway, I just find it hard to turn off that aggression and be easygoing while on Proviron. I also feel my demeanor comes off as more intimidating and people can see it, which isn't a good thing for social situations.

I do always wonder if I would respond to some things differently had I tried them before ever touching Fin. =/
 

Hans

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This is opposite of what's posted on your site regarding DHT here: "Inhibits the aromatase, lowers estrogen levels and inhibits vasopressin." ;)

Anyway, I just find it hard to turn off that aggression and be easygoing while on Proviron. I also feel my demeanor comes off as more intimidating and people can see it, which isn't a good thing for social situations.

I do always wonder if I would respond to some things differently had I tried them before ever touching Fin. =/
Yes, there are some contradictory in vitro studies. Some studies show that DHT (actually its metabolite; 3beta-diol) lower vasopressin, whereas others show that it increases it.
 

Hans

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Anything that can be done about this?
Progesterone perhaps. According to this study, progesterone indirectly increases aldosterone similar to sodium restriction. Many people have reported that they are able to sleep through the night if they have some progesterone.
 

Risingfire

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May 10, 2016
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As always, thank you Hans.

When it comes to androgens my experience is limited to testosterone cream to the scrotum and Proviron, both of which give me badly agitated sleep.

I hypothesise it's from DHT amping up my neurotransmitters or my alertness by another pathway, which is the only downside to androgen supplementations.

I also have reduced libido, which may be from DHT opposing estrogens too much, which is an issue @Broco6679 also seems to have.

I desperatly want it to work for me, as I believe in this research, but I feel like a life on DHT will shorten it by a few decades from exhaustion.
Beard, are you not sleeping on it due to high energy or adrenaline? Take pregnenolone and progesterone along with DHT. This should reduce adrenaline and help you to sleep better. Also, have a sweet and salty treat before bed.
 

ScurveDream

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Progesterone perhaps. According to this study, progesterone indirectly increases aldosterone similar to sodium restriction. Many people have reported that they are able to sleep through the night if they have some progesterone.

Is this why people may crave and/or benefit from more sodium (than otherwise restriction I suppose) because progesterone can increase aldosterone, but sodium can lower it some so as to not keep it chronically high if progesterone is supplemented or normally high-ish?

But I do not really know its involvement entirely in urinating/etc.
 

Hans

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Is this why people may crave and/or benefit from more sodium (than otherwise restriction I suppose) because progesterone can increase aldosterone, but sodium can lower it some so as to not keep it chronically high if progesterone is supplemented or normally high-ish?

But I do not really know its involvement entirely in urinating/etc.
Possibly, because progesterone appears to increase sodium loss, which then increases aldosterone (R).
 

R J

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I wonder if DHT is bioavailable orally dissolved in MCT and tocopherol.
 

Hans

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I wonder if DHT is bioavailable orally dissolved in MCT and tocopherol.
I can't see why not. I haven't seen research on DHT specifically in humans, except for things like Anavar ofc, but if Anavar is highly bioavailable, then DHT should be as well.
 

schultz

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You'd want to use something other than MCT I think. You want it to be taken up by chylomicrons, not through the portal vein. MCTs are taken up by the portal vein, which is why you can't take something like testosterone enanthate (enanthic acid, C:7) orally. Testosterone undecanoate (C:11) can be taken orally. Although Wikipedia lists C:12 as an MCT I was under the impression it was more like a long chain fat behaviourly (digestion of). I think C:10 and C:11 are also more like lauric acid and less like the shorter chained fats.
 

R J

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I can't see why not. I haven't seen research on DHT specifically in humans, except for things like Anavar ofc, but if Anavar is highly bioavailable, then DHT should be as well.

Have you used anavar? I am told it’s less androgenic but I’m wondering if it will be enough to stimulate receptors like DHT does. I used some a couple years ago and it gave great proprioception— I could really focus on the muscles when walking and moving around. Made me feel athletic. Gave amazing pumps.

I can get anavar through a doctor here but unfortunately DHT seems totally unavailable even if I get a prescription. It’s not even available from the companies that sell materials to compounding pharmacies.

I have a feeling anavar is more androgenic than the bodybuilding forum people or Wikipedia articles say it is. I don’t think those anabolic / androgenic indexes are very accurate.
 

R J

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You'd want to use something other than MCT I think. You want it to be taken up by chylomicrons, not through the portal vein. MCTs are taken up by the portal vein, which is why you can't take something like testosterone enanthate (enanthic acid, C:7) orally. Testosterone undecanoate (C:11) can be taken orally. Although Wikipedia lists C:12 as an MCT I was under the impression it was more like a long chain fat behaviourly (digestion of). I think C:10 and C:11 are also more like lauric acid and less like the shorter chained fats.

I had good results with progesterone orally in MCT and tocopherol. I think the addition of the vitamin E is probably responsible for the effect, maybe it offsets the lack of long chains in the MCT. Maybe olive oil is better though?
 
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