The Travis Corner

Travis

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Of all the centenarian reports I've read, none are springing to mind that mentioned being vegetarian and vegan. They all seem very relaxed with diet and eat fairly "normally" i.e a bit of meat, a bit of vegetables, a bit of dairy, a bit of wheat (bread, desserts etc) Perhaps I am just forgetting the vegetarian/vegan reports I will read up on them again.
I'll think you'll find many cases of centenarians claiming to be vegetarians, as if that alone really means very much at all (grains are usually included within this category, as are the ω−6 fatty acids . . . and I'd still like to know exactly what @CLASH had in mind by these purported 'fruit toxins.')
 
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Braveheart

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Of all the centenarian reports I've read, none are springing to mind that mentioned being vegetarian and vegan. They all seem very relaxed with diet and eat fairly "normally" i.e a bit of meat, a bit of vegetables, a bit of dairy, a bit of wheat (bread, desserts etc) Perhaps I am just forgetting the vegetarian/vegan reports I will read up on them again.

"They all seem very relaxed with diet and eat fairly "normally""

...this being relaxed about diet and supplementation should be foremost on the mind of all forum members...a constant reminder maybe....just my humble opinion.
 

Travis

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"They all seem very relaxed with diet and eat fairly "normally""

...this being relaxed about diet and supplementation should be foremost on the mind of all forum members...a constant reminder maybe....just my humble opinion.
True. These people aren't political activists or industrialists driven by commerce. Centenarians don't make waves, and probably have had the luxury of living most of their lives under relatively low stress conditions. They are very often religious.
 

Wagner83

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Effect of different drinks on the absorption of non-heme iron from composite meals. - PubMed - NCBI

Effect of different drinks on the absorption of non-heme iron from composite meals
.
Hallberg L, et al. Hum Nutr Appl Nutr. 1982.
Abstract
A study was made on the effect of various drinks on the absorption on non-heme iron. The drinks were taken with standard meals composed of a hamburger, string beans and mashed potatoes. In each series identical meals were served to the same subject either with water or with the drink under study, labelling the meals with two different radio-iron isotopes. A reduction in iron absorption was seen when serving tea (62 per cent) or coffee (35 per cent) with the meals. Orange juice increased the iron absorption (85 per cent). Pure alcohol and wine increased only slightly the percentage absorbed. Wine often has a high iron content, which increased significantly the amount of iron absorbed (three times). Milk and beer have no significant effect. Coca-Cola increased only slightly the absorption. The present studies clearly shows that the choice of drink drunk with a meal can markedly affect the absorption of non-heme iron.
 

squanch

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'Xanthines show the expected potencies as displacers in striatal and cortical membranes, with theophylline > paraxanthine > caffeine > theobromine.' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

I think you're right about a methylxanthine (very likely theophylline) being responsible, on account of this one best fitting the evidence. Due to the similarity between the catecholamines and caffeic acid, I had looked into these. Yerba maté has a high concentration of caffeic acids, much more so than coffee due the effect roasting has on them (the majority are transformed into inactive species—although, much of what remainsare active anti-opiates). Even the more powerful caffeic acid metabolites, such ferrulic acid (O-methylated caffeic acid), are really only stimulants at mega-dose levels. Perhaps a small part of the the total stimulant effects of both tea and yerba maté can be attributed to the caffeic acid congeners (the non-quinides), but they appear as a whole much less active gram-for-gram than the methylxanthines (and the caffeic acid quinides). So despite their relatively high concentrations and similarity to L-dopa, they are generally only attributed an 'antioxidant' role—probably rightly so.


Considering the xanthine ring above, a person will realize that there are fifteen unique methylxanthines which are possible. Of these fifteen, only three are found in yerba maté: caffeine, theobromine, and theophylline. This probably has something to do with the selective plant enzymes which progressively methylate the xanthine ring. Many methylxanthines have been found to bind with high affinity to adenosine reptors, which isn't surprising on account of xanthine's similarity with adenosine. Of the three that are found in yerba maté, theophylline always binds the strongest:


I suppose you could think that the adenosine receptor prefers xanthines having unmethylated №7 nitrogens—which it could perhaps bind though either π-stacking (with the imidizole moiety) or though a simply hydrogen bond—but solubility could also play a role:⁽²⁾


Theobromine is the least-soluble methylxanthine, a fact which could contribute to it's capacity to diffuse towards the adenosine receptor. The differential bioactivities could have almost as much to do with distribution as with the adenosine receptor itself. Theobromine may not be absorbed as well on account of its lower water solubility, and could also have less plasma solubility (perhaps adhering to lipoproteins a bit more). But despite whichever way it tends to distribute within the body, theophylline always bind to isolated adenosine receptors more strongly than does either caffeine or theobromine. Judging by the graph below, it can displace (IC₅₀) adenosine derivatives at a roughly 5× less concentration than caffeine can (and ~20× times less than theobromine):


John Daly states the IC₅₀ values as follows, and also gives a short introduction to the adenosine receptors:

'The rank order of potency for methylxanthines versus binding of 1·nM [³H]cyclohexyladenosine in membranes from eight rat brain regions is theophylline (IC₅₀, 20–30·μM) > paraxanthine (IC₅₀, 40–65·μM) > caffeine IC₅₀, 90–110·μM) > theobromine (IC₅₀, 210–280·μM).' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

'The rank order of potency of methylxanthines versus activation of adenylate cyclase by 1·μM 2-chloroadenosine in rat striatal membranes is theophylline (IC₅₀, 20·μM) > paraxanthine (IC₅₀, 40·μM) > caffeine (IC₅₀, 80·μM) >> theobromine (IC₅₀, over 1000·μM).' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

'Indeed, the mild central alerting effects of caffeine probably occur at brain levels of 10·μM or less, while the more profound central stimulant, somnolytic, and anxiogenic effects probably occur at brain levels ranging from 20 to 50·μM (see LaChance, 1982). The convulsant activity of caffeine probably requires levels in brain in excess of 200·μM. Caffeine and theophylline at micromolar concentration have now been found to block interaction of adenosine with its extracellular receptors (see Daly, 1981a). Such adenosine receptors govern a variety of physiological functions and appear to represent likely loci for the expression of pharmacological activity of caffeine and theophylline. Two major classes of caffeine-sensitive adenosine receptors have been defined. These are the A₁-adenosine receptor, which is inhibitory to adenylate cyclase, and the A₂-adenosine receptor, which is stimulatory to adenylate cyclase. The A₁-receptor has a higher affinity for adenosine and adenosine analogues than the A₂-receptor. Both major classes of adenosine receptors occur in brain, and both are antagonized by caffeine and theophylline. The A₂-stimulatory receptor has been studied extensively in brain slices (Daly, 1977). This receptor occurs in all brain regions and is remarkable since accumulations of cyclic AMP elicited via this A₂-receptor can be greatly potentiated by adrenergic and histaminergic receptor agonists, particularly in slices from cerebral cortex and hippocampus (Daly et al., 1981 b).' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

The methylxanthines inhibit AMP cyclization in the same order and to the same degree that they bind to adenosine receptors. This leaves no doubt that methylxanthines are truly and fundamentally adenosine receptor antagonists.


As generally being 4–5× more potent than caffeine on the adenosine receptors, it should be no surprise that theophylline has been used in medicine. It has been historically used in asthma congestive heart failure:⁽³⁾


'When the drug concentration progressively exceeds 20 milligrams per liter, atrial tachycardia and then ventricular arrhythmias and more likely to be observed.' ―Piafsky⁽³⁾

'The A₂ system in slices shows an inhibition profile with xanthines typical of that seen in other systems, with theophylline > paraxanthine > caffeine > theobromine.' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

'Ventricular arrhythmias secondary to theophylline intoxication constitute one of the life-threatening effects of overdose.” Hall et al reported ventricular tachycardia in four of 22 patients with theophylline toxicity over a wide range of serum theophylline levels. Paloucek and Bodvold, in a cumulative review of published cases of theophylhine toxicity, reported ventricular tachycardia or fibrillation in 20 percent of patients with intentional overdose and 5 percent of patients with iatrogenic toxicity. This potential for ventricular arrhythmias is one reason why supportive care of patients with theophylhine toxicity includes vigilant ECG.' ―Bender⁽⁴⁾


So a person is almost forced into believing that theophylline would be primarily responsible for yerba maté's cardiac effects. But theophylline hasn't been reported in some assays, leading many to disregard it.

'The fact that theophylline has been difficult to find in varying tests on Mate may be due to theophylline metabolism into caffeine and theobromine.' ―Heck⁽⁵⁾

Theophylline is the theobromine precursor, lacking only one methyl group—the final methyl group yields caffeine. It's concentration might depend on the age of the plant, for one, and perhaps even on things such as temperature and rainfall. There could be effects stemming from one-carbon availability (the 'methyl pool' of the plant). Caffeine always appears to outnumber it's precursors and can perhaps be seen as the final product; caffeine is fully-saturated with N-methyl groups.

View attachment 8774 Capillary electrophoresis–UV absorption spectra

The above theophylline concentration is more ambiguous than the others since its peak (3) co-elutes with the most interfering species, limiting resolution by obscuring the peak's bottom. But the integrated peak area (concentration) can still be estimated based upon its height and its predicted shape, and theophylline's peak does appear every bit as salient as theobromine's for this particular infusion. The methylxanthines above had been extracted using distilled water, so this is a realistic representation of a home yerba maté infusion. (Discerning readers may note the methylxanthine elution order is different than their water solubility order given in Image III, above. This somewhat unexpected result is likely on account of them having added sodium borate and sodium dodecyl sulfate before the electrophoresis step.)

'theophylline can release catecholamines from the adrenal medulla.' ―Piafsky⁽³⁾

'With A₂-receptor systems, theobromine is much less potent than caffeine.' ―Daly⁽¹⁾

Theobromine is certainly the kitten of the bunch, the little brother of the methylxanthine family. Since any food with theobromine can also be expected to have caffeine in higher concentrations, it's probably never worth considering. Theophylline on the other hand is much more potent than caffeine and could thus have substantial effects at lower concentrations. I think you'd expect yerba maté's methylxanthine profile to be somewhat variable. A person aiming to limit theophylline intake could perhaps try other brands grown in different geographical regions.

[1] Daly, J. "Subclasses of adenosine receptors in the central nervous system: interaction with caffeine and related methylxanthines." Cellular and molecular neurobiology (1983)
[2] Martin, A. "Extended Hildebrand solubility approach: methylxanthines in mixed solvents." Journal of pharmaceutical sciences (1981)
[3] Piafsky, K. "Dosage of theophylline in bronchial asthma." New England Journal of Medicine (1975)
[4] Bender, P. "Cardiac arrhythmias during theophylline toxicity." Chest (1991)
[5] Heck, C. "Yerba Mate Tea (Ilex paraguariensis): a comprehensive review on chemistry, health implications, and technological considerations." Journal of food science (2007)
Absolutely amazing. Thanks Travis.
 

CLASH

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@Travis
Does increased lifespan also mean increased quality of life?

Some examples of fruit/ components of fruit to my knowledge off hand:
-Ackee fruit= hypoglycin
-Mango= urushiol
-Papaya (atleast unripe)= latex components that induce abortion and effect estrus in rats (there are anecdotal accounts of abortion in man as well, for whatever thats worth)
-many flavanoids have an anti-thyroid effect including quercetin, apigenin, luteolin and naringin
-pineapple inhibits liver enzymes as does grapefruit
-pineapple, banana, plantain contain appreciable amounts of serotonin
-fruits such as dates and pomegranates are high in phytoestrogens

Knowing the extent to which you may possibly research the individual components I am presenting in comparison to the amount of time I have to research each of these individual aspects on my own, I want to say that theres a decent chance that I dont have the entire picture. So I invite your in depth analysis of my statements. The main reason for my statements is my poor experience with fruits in general. Most of them make me feel pretty terrible (cold, brain foggy, bloated, rashes, stomach pains etc.). I am not trying to bash a vegan diet nor am I trying to refute your post, I dont have enough information to truly refute some of your points nor the time at the moment to even begin to catch up with your info. Furthermore, I have actually gained a lot of helpful insight from your posts, so my goal isnt to argue just to stimulate meaningful conversation about this topic.
 

Travis

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Some examples of fruit/ components of fruit to my knowledge off hand:
-pineapple, banana, plantain contain appreciable amounts of serotonin
Can you explain to me how you expect the negligible concentrations found in pineapples to be 'appreciable amounts?' Monoamine oxidase is well-known to deaminate serotonin, and our intestines make daily far more from tryptophan that it could possible get from an all-pineapple diet. Moreover, serum serotonin is bound to platelets and doesn't enter the brain nearly as readily as circulating tryptophan—being far more significant than serotonin itself, and shown by Fernstrom to be the main determinant in brain serotonin synthesis. Saying that pineapples and bananas have 'appreciable amounts' of serotonin is impractical, pointless, and misleading, as so is grouping the 'plaintain' in with the 'banana.' If you except sertonin as a risk factor: I think you would agree, after some reflection, they egg white or whey protein would have far greater serotonergic potential that pineapples and bananas.
@Travis
-fruits such as dates and pomegranates are high in phytoestrogens
I seriously doubt that. The only polyphenols with nonnegligible estrogenic activity are genistein and daidzein, from the soybean, and they bind only about at ¹⁄₁₀₀ of the strength than does estradiol. Moreover, these two polyphenols act like inhibitors at high estradiol concentrations (and only weakly estrogenic at low concentrations). The next most significant polyphenol ('the least insignificant' would probably be more accurate) is kaempferol, a polyphenol which can bind the estrogen receptor at about ¹⁄₅₀₀ the affinity as does estradiol. You need to name your supposed or fictitious 'estrogenic polyphenol' before slandering healthy fruit, such as figs, especially as you are likely and hypocritically consuming estrogen itself daily in your dairy products. Exorphin will release prolactin, and this is a more fundamental cause for gynecomastia than is estradiol—which works by transcribing for the prolactin receptor. receptor.
I want to say that there's a decent chance that I dont have the entire picture.
I would have to agree with that statement.
The main reason for my statements is my poor experience with fruits in general. Most of them make me feel pretty terrible (cold, brain foggy, bloated, rashes, stomach pains etc.).
Most people don't seem to have any problems eating fruit. Have you checked for a Candida albicans infection? this can be initiated by antibiotics, glucocorticoids, N-acetylglucosamine, prostaglandin E₂, and by eating refined grains.
 
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Braveheart

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Love my daily fresh pineapple...plus some plantain fried in a little coconut oil...then sprinkled w cinnamon and brown sugar...finish w coffee made with grass fed raw milk only...heaven this??.....does a bear ***t in the woods?
 

Koveras

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I seriously doubt that. The only polyphenols with nonnegligible estrogenic activity are genistein and daidzein, from the soybean, and they bind only about at ¹⁄₁₀₀ of the strength than does estradiol. Moreover, these two polyphenols act like inhibitors at high estradiol concentrations (and only weakly estrogenic at low concentrations). The next most significant polyphenol ('the least insignificant' would probably be more accurate) is kaempferol, a polyphenol which can bind the estrogen receptor at about ¹⁄₅₀₀ the affinity as does estradiol. You need to name your supposed or fictitious 'estrogenic polyphenol' before slandering healthy fruit, such as figs, especially as you are likely and hypocritically consuming estrogen itself daily in your dairy products. Exorphin will release prolactin, and this is a more fundamental cause for gynecomastia than is estradiol—which works by transcribing for the prolactin receptor. receptor.

I wouldn't completely discount the potential for additive or synergistic effects of weakly estrogenic chemicals

Could be unexpected interactions such as this as well

Dietary quercetin exacerbates the development of estrogen-induced breast tumors in female ACI rats.

"Inhibition of COMT activity by quercetin may expose breast cells chronically to E(2) and catechol estrogens"​
 

Wagner83

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I wouldn't completely discount the potential for additive or synergistic effects of weakly estrogenic chemicals

Could be unexpected interactions such as this as well

Dietary quercetin exacerbates the development of estrogen-induced breast tumors in female ACI rats.

"Inhibition of COMT activity by quercetin may expose breast cells chronically to E(2) and catechol estrogens"​
Vascular Effects Of Dietary Nitrate Via The Nitrate-nitrite-nitric Oxide Pathway
The effects of dietary nitrate may be considerably enhanced or altered through interactions with other nutrients. For example, in addition to polyphenols in fruit and vegetables, Gago et al. found that red wine polyphenols [anthocyanin fraction and catechol (caffeic acid)] are very effective at converting nitrite to NO in vitro and in the human stomach [188]. Indeed, nitrite reductase activity has been associated with a broad range of dietary phenols (greatest to least activity): epicatechin-3-O-gallate, quercetin, procyanidin B8 dimer, oleuropein, procyanidin B2 dimer, chlorogenic acid, epicatechin, catechin, procyanidin B5 dimer
 

Obi-wan

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No matter what I eat I get brain fog after lunch but Art
Love my daily fresh pineapple...plus some plantain fried in a little coconut oil...then sprinkled w cinnamon and brown sugar...finish w coffee made with grass fed raw milk only...heaven this??.....does a bear ***t in the woods?

Sounds really delicious
 

Travis

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I wouldn't completely discount the potential for additive or synergistic effects of weakly estrogenic chemicals

Could be unexpected interactions such as this as well

Dietary quercetin exacerbates the development of estrogen-induced breast tumors in female ACI rats.

"Inhibition of COMT activity by quercetin may expose breast cells chronically to E(2) and catechol estrogens"​
But that wouldn't make quercetin really 'estrogenic' per se, but merely just another weak COMT inhibitor. This is plausible, as many molecules will do this including epicatechin gallate. However, epicatechin gallate is negatively-associated with cancer in any way you slice it. The evidence is strong, direct, convincing, and near-unanimous as seen both in green tea epidemiology and supplementation trials. The methoxy-estrogens are the most powerful endogenous microtubule depolymerizing agents known, and cytoskeletal integrity is of high importance in cancer proliferation. Nearly the entire cytoskeleton needs to be dissembled before mitosis can occur, and drugs which block this step—such as Taxol, which selectively-binds and stabilizes microtubules—can reliably inhibit proliferation. I have always thought that microtubule depolymerization was one of estradiol's functions (as 2-methoxyestradiol) even though Ca²⁺ ions also appear to be depolymerizing agents. The massive intracellular calcium spike initiated by prolactin could have this function, and I think high-Ca²⁺ combined with 2-methoxyestradiol could be what actually dissolves the cytoskeleton. I don't know of any other endogenous microtubule-disrupting agents that would be expected to perform this function, and I don't think enzymes are thought to participate much. So besides transcribing for the enzymes fatty acid synthase and stearoyl–CoA desaturase (needed to swell the cell membrane with the more fluid oleic acid until it divides), estradiol could be working nongenomically on the cytoskeleton as the methylated counterpart.
 

Travis

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Love my daily fresh pineapple...plus some plantain fried in a little coconut oil...then sprinkled w cinnamon and brown sugar...finish w coffee made with grass fed raw milk only...heaven this??.....does a bear ***t in the woods?
I bet the coffee goes best with the fried banana, and I do often pair those together. I don't find coffee goes very well with most fruits—or at least mentally, using my imagination; dates, dried figs, and bananas are the only ones I commonly eat with coffee. I suppose the harder-to-source and tropical fattier fruits such as durian and cherimoya could be good; but as my Asian grocery store is downtown, situated by long and annoying cues of angry automobiles, and further away, I generally stick to the suburban grocery store and it's selection. Even though durian is often only $2/lb, the entire fruit is then $20 (and non-edible parts constitute the majority of the durian's mass). One cherimoya is the size of a baseball, probably about 300·Cal, yet most often has a price around $5. This may seem insignificant, but when eating a lot of them would add up; I could easily eat over a dozen cherimoya's per day, making living off these more expensive than eating at airports and hotels (but certainly just as good).
 
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Braveheart

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I bet the coffee goes best with the fried banana, and I do often pair those together. I don't find coffee goes very well with most fruits (although I haven't actually tried); only dates, dried figs, and bananas are the ones I commonly eat with coffee. I suppose the harder-to-source and tropical fattier ones such as durian and cherimoya could be good; but as my Asian grocery store is downtown, situated by long and annoying cues of angry automobiles, and further away, I generally stick to the suburban grocery store and it's selection.
Oh yeah!...just got to have that coffee or glass of raw milk w that fried plantain (not other fruits you are right)... plantain is a powerhouse and delicious that way
 

Fractality

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I recently picked up 2 organic pineapples with a good amount of yellow color, softness, and sweetness However, the inside was not that orange color apparently indicative of optimum ripeness. In fact, I've never had a pineapple with an orange inside. It's always yellow. Speaking of fruit, I think it would be awesome if we all compiled a list of "Travis/Peat approved" fruits to see if there are any differences in recommendation. It seems like Travis is much more liberal about fruit/plant diet in general and skeptical of dairy. I will say I would have a hard time replacing my near daily quart of pasteurized non-homogenized goat milk. It's only $3.69 and provides me with quick and easy nutrition without cooking.
 
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Braveheart

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I see what a struggle it can be, up north, to find decent fresh fruit...It makes me feel bad because there is such an abundance here...didn't realize how coming to Belize would make eating fresh so easy...grass fed beef, raw milk, cheese...sea shrimp, lobster, fish and such an abundance of fruit I'm still discovering new ones after 20 years...and this is such a "poor" country?! One of those shithole countries no doubt? Oh, Belizian chocolate and coffee needs to be mentioned...the original Mayan chocolate...like no other.
 

CLASH

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@Travis
What about peripheral serotonin from an irritation of the intestine by fruits such as pineapple? From what I understand something like 90% of serotonin is derived from the gut so any irritation could initiate and increase in serotonin. It would make sense for fruit to be slightly irritating for the gut. If fruit is a vehicle for seed spreading then limiting the amount of fruit eaten by one animal and increasing intestinal transit time would make sense. Thus, putting metabolic inhibitors in the fruit to inhibit gorging by animals and also putting irritants in the fruit to simulate emptying of the bowels would also make sense.

You doubt that pomegranates and dates are high in phytoestrogens or that those phytoestrogens are comparable to regular estrogens or perhaps the estrogens in soy?

I would say its a bit of stretch to say I am slandering fruits, but thats besides the point. I would venture to say I’m merely more cautious about fruits and vegetables than you may be because of my experience. With this in mind because you are knowledgeble to some extent on the subject I am trying to converse with you. No hypocrisy, I don’t consume dairy, I have issues with the opiate effect which I have written about on this forum (I think prior to your post on this) as well as read from you in regards to the prolactin stimulating aspect. Also, I mentioned nothing about gyno. I don’t consume eggs or whey either, but I understand where your coming from. My intention wasnt to agitate you, merely to start a discussion on these things. Regardless of what the studies that you have read say, I think there is merit to direct experience. I mean all these studies are, are controlled direct experience of others put into reports.

As for yeasts, I havent taken antibiotics except rifaximin concurrently with nystatin and fluconazole, I haven’t taken glucocorticoids in over 10 years (im 23), I never have taken n-acetylglucosamine, I doubt its prostaglandin E2 as I have been eating less than 4g of PUFA per 2000kcal for 3-4 years as well as taking aspirin regularly and my bodyfat is around 10% (stored PUFA), and I dont eat any grains currenlty and the only grain I have eaten for the last 5-6 years has been white rice high in amylopectin.

As for the more specific points your going to have to give me time to really refute them adequately.

Lastly, what about the other points I have presented?

Edit: I edited this post a few times, I typed it while at work in brief spurts when I got a chance.
 
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Obi-wan

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My breakfast; freshly squeezed orange juice from Trader Joes with Energin. Tall glass of raw milk from the farm with Manuka honey, Cottage cheese with Lapodin. Coffee with Cocoa powder and whipped cream.

Also Aspirin, selenium, threonine, artemisinin, Pau d' Arco
 

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