The Suppression Of Collective Joy

[Hugh Johnson]

I think this is well worth a read. I think this suppression of expression and turning the festivities into spectacles are directly related to the serotonergic rigidity and learned helplessness.

The Suppression of Collective Joy

 

[postman]

An extremely one-sided article. That kind of partying is surpressed for a reason. Essentially if you look at it from the standpoint of the author, all of civilization oppressive. The only way that you can be completely free from rules and the expeectations of others is if you have anarchy. Talking about things like the burning man as if there are no negative consequences, no drug overdoses, or addicts, or unwanted children born to single parents etc.

If anything 'the elites' want people to party more and more and become even more thoughtless, look at the kind of culture that is being promoted in the music and the movies. Party party party and dont worry about anything, ever. Barbara is a hypocrite as well. I don't understand how you can be a libertarian on social issues, but at the same time think people don't own their labour.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Have you ever been to Burning Man or any rave party?

 

[postman]

Have you ever been to Burning Man or any rave party?

No. Why?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

An extremely one-sided article. That kind of partying is surpressed for a reason. Essentially if you look at it from the standpoint of the author, all of civilization oppressive. The only way that you can be completely free from rules and the expeectations of others is if you have anarchy. Talking about things like the burning man as if there are no negative consequences, no drug overdoses, or addicts, or unwanted children born to single parents etc.

If anything 'the elites' want people to party more and more and become even more thoughtless, look at the kind of culture that is being promoted in the music and the movies. Party party party and dont worry about anything, ever. Barbara is a hypocrite as well. I don't understand how you can be a libertarian on social issues, but at the same time think people don't own their labour.

Nice strawman.

I know perfectly well how social control works and why it exists. Hell, the repressive hierarchy of the West was probably one reason Europe conquered the world. What I think Marx called the pre-capitalist conception of time is hardly suited for industry or serious war. Doesn't mean it's healthy. Even the article mentions lynch mobs as a negative form of this same expression. There is a deeper discussion here to be had about the need to learn to repress an emotion before it can be harnessed to a positive, socially beneficial direction, but that is some deep Jungian stuff.

 

[postman]

Nice strawman.

I know perfectly well how social control works and why it exists. Hell, the repressive hierarchy of the West was probably one reason Europe conquered the world. What I think Marx called the pre-capitalist conception of time is hardly suited for industry or serious war. Doesn't mean it's healthy. Even the article mentions lynch mobs as a negative form of this same expression. There is a deeper discussion here to be had about the need to learn to repress an emotion before it can be harnessed to a positive, socially beneficial direction, but that is some deep Jungian stuff.

How is that a strawman, and why are you being sarcastic? Is sarcasm a form of expressing joy? Ordered socialization might not be healthy short-term for some individuals but you could definately argue that it's healthy for communities and nations. The article is extremely one sided, pretty much saying that there are only negative expressions of hierarchy and order, and that nothing good ever comes out of it. It's certainly not healthy to take a bunch of drugs and party your brains away.

How would that even work, repressing an emotion until it can be harnessed into a positive direction?

 

[Such_Saturation]

No. Why?

Because you were talking about all the consequences of it.

 

[postman]

Because you were talking about all the consequences of it.

Do you think it's impossible to know what happens when a bunch of young people drink alcohol and take drugs and party for days on end without me actually going there?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Do you think it's impossible to know what happens when a bunch of young people drink alcohol and take drugs and party for days on end without me actually going there?

I don't know, can we convey emotions and feelings over the internet?

 

[postman]

I don't know, can we convey emotions and feelings over the internet?

We definately can but I don't understand how that is relevant.

 

[Such_Saturation]

We definately can but I don't understand how that is relevant.

Because while it may not be necessary to have been in a place to know what the mood is, you definitely need to have felt that mood to know what it is. And you see, the consequences of printing more money, of bailing out banks, all these things seemed very "possible to know what happens", but it didn't turn out that way.

 

[postman]

Because while it may not be necessary to have been in a place to know what the mood is, you definitely need to have felt that mood to know what it is. And you see, the consequences of printing more money, of bailing out banks, all these things seemed very "possible to know what happens", but it didn't turn out that way.

I'm not arguing that the people attending burning man are in bad moods while they're there so I don't understand why it's relevant. I'm sure they felt great.
I would argue the consequences of those things you brought up are exactly those that I expected from it, although maybe not as instantly catastrophic as I thought.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm not arguing that the people attending burning man are in bad moods while they're there so I don't understand why it's relevant. I'm sure they felt great.
I would argue the consequences of those things you brought up are exactly those that I expected from it, although maybe not as instantly catastrophic as I thought.

But the "mood" is not physical or mental pleasure, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the collaborative and friendly attitude never seen anywhere else in the street or the office, and in fact the sobriety that the people in this mood often display.

 

[postman]

But the "mood" is not physical or mental pleasure, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the collaborative and friendly attitude never seen anywhere else in the street or the office, and in fact the sobriety that the people in this mood often display.

Are you purporting that Burning Man isn't a place of wild orgies and boundless drug use? I wouldn't call that sobriety.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Are you purporting that Burning Man isn't a place of wild orgies and boundless drug use? I wouldn't call that sobriety.

Well they certainly aren't snorting cocaine and then buying subprime stocks, are they.

 

[postman]

Well they certainly aren't snorting cocaine and then buying subprime stocks, are they.

What's your point? Sounds like you are trying to set up some kind of false dichotomy between a bunch of drugged up hippies and wall street businessmen abusing stimulants, correct me if I'm wrong. It's obviously has bad effects in either case. And yes stimulants are abused at burning man as well according to a lot of visitors.

 

[Such_Saturation]

What's your point? Sounds like you are trying to set up some kind of false dichotomy between a bunch of drugged up hippies and wall street businessmen abusing stimulants, correct me if I'm wrong. It's obviously has bad effects in either case. And yes stimulants are abused at burning man as well according to a lot of visitors.

But the dichotomy you are identifying is between "organized civilization" and areas where societal norms are less present; this is fallacious in my opinion, regardless of any kind of drugs (whether they are causing unwanted pregnancies or financial bubbles) (however I must say that if you equate cocaine and psychedelics it could be difficult to understand why you are on a Ray Peat forum). The kind of autonomous, distributed governance that is seen in a primal form in these "free zones" is not only at the basis of our modern society, but also is its future if we just look at how cryptocurrencies work, how the internet is starting to work as well as the music business, the media business, the charity and humanitarian system.

Incidentally (or not, rather) it is also how biological systems work. And I daresay the majority of our issues arise when we try to make things work for us in a way that is radically different from our own internal way. That is, unless we start replacing our brains with computers, living like robots is not going to cut it.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

How is that a strawman, and why are you being sarcastic? Is sarcasm a form of expressing joy? Ordered socialization might not be healthy short-term for some individuals but you could definately argue that it's healthy for communities and nations. The article is extremely one sided, pretty much saying that there are only negative expressions of hierarchy and order, and that nothing good ever comes out of it. It's certainly not healthy to take a bunch of drugs and party your brains away.

How would that even work, repressing an emotion until it can be harnessed into a positive direction?

You can't even recognize sarcasm. It says none of those things.

 

[postman]

But the dichotomy you are identifying is between "organized civilization" and areas where societal norms are less present; this is fallacious in my opinion, regardless of any kind of drugs (whether they are causing unwanted pregnancies or financial bubbles) (however I must say that if you equate cocaine and psychedelics it could be difficult to understand why you are on a Ray Peat forum). The kind of autonomous, distributed governance that is seen in a primal form in these "free zones" is not only at the basis of our modern society, but also is its future if we just look at how cryptocurrencies work, how the internet is starting to work as well as the music business, the media business, the charity and humanitaran system.

Incidentally (or not, rather) it is also how biological systems work. And I daresay the majority of our issues arise when we try to make things work for us in a way that is radically different from our own internal way. That is, unless we start replacing our brains with computers, living like robots is not going to cut it.

The dichotomy the article seems to identify is that between spontanous socialization and more organized forms of socialization. The article then goes on to say how superior free-form festivities are, mentioning such things as burning man and drinking heavily in a positive light, not even mentioning the possible bad effects of things like that. Or am I misinterpreting the article? How is that fallacious?

I'm not equating cocaine and psychedelics but if you think psychedelic use can have no negative effects on the user I would question your judgement.

I'm not for more central governance, if anything I think less of it would be good. Being anti-authoritarian does not mean you have to be pro-hedonism. I don't understand your comparisons or what they have to do with tripping balls, and btw the internet is sadly becoming more and more centralized.

 

[postman]

You can't even recognize sarcasm.

How is

Nice strawman.

not sarcasm? Did you truly think it was nice or was it just a way for you to be passive agressive? I find it hard to believe that you appreciated my post and thought I had constructed a "nice" "strawman".

It says none of those things.

Then what does it say? I would like to hear your interpretation.