pauljacob

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This part is so interesting to me because it somehow aligns with the narrative and approach of Dr. Trevor Marshall [Excluding the VIT D part - of course XD].
So Trevor Marshall basically recommends using angiotensin II receptor blocker [OLMASARTAN] to raise and improve the innate immune system that will then fight of the pathogens in the body. He says that some people need to use it for 5-10 years or more.
In his view pathogens knock down the VDR [Vitamin D Receptor] which therefore allows these bugs to live inside the cells specifically without being attacked by the innate immune system. Poisoning the cells and the body.


Ray Peat said the following:


RP: "I’ve been studying inflammatory systems for a long time and in recent years I've been paying attention to the angiotensin system which used to be thought of as exclusively a matter of blood pressure regulation. And for many years there have been drugs to block angiotensin, reduce its formation, to lower blood pressure. But it happens that angiotensin is one of the things at the very root of the inflammatory process. Inflammation of various types can damage, for example, olfactory nerves [nerves for the sense of smell]. That is a very sensitive part of the nervous system. The Greeks considered the olfactory sense to be upon essential to understanding the essence of things. So the olfactory system fails under many different kinds of stresses, aging or poisoning - but the inflammatory system is one of the basic routes in cell damage. And this virus [COVID-19] attacks as a so-called receptor, causes its damage by binding to the ACE enzyme. ACE2 is one of the enzymes in the angiotensin blood pressure regulating system. But the enzyme that it binds to - ACE2 rather than ACE1 - is the enzyme that destroys angiotensin. The angiotensin is the mediator of inflammation. That will damage your particular type of cells. And ACE2 by destroying angiotensin protects against not only high blood pressure, but all types of inflammation. This is being studied in rheumatoid arthritis, degenerative osteoporosis, dementia, kidney and heart failure, especially lung fibrosis. Pulmonary arterial hypertension is an inflammatory process in the lungs, very highly influenced by angiotensin. So the lung damage caused by the virus is caused because it's knocking out our anti angiotensin virus???. So the logical approach to treating it is to restore that angiotensin enzyme. And all of the common anti inflammatory things, including the angiotensin receptor blockers and vitamin b1, aspirin and I think the t3 part of thyroid, progesterone and the several of the angiotensin receptor blockers all help to increase the production of the ACE2 enzyme that is knocked out by the virus. The virus lowers the availability of it. And these anti-inflammatory things restore the anti-inflammatory things. So even if the virus is there and you could produce more of the protective ACE2 enzyme then you are okay."

Q: Would the methylene blue help?

RP: "It works by keeping your Nitric Oxide down. Nitric oxide is turned on by angiotensin and so it works on at least part of the inflammatory system. And it also helps you maintain mitochondrial energy production and the failure of energy is at the deepest level of the inflammatory degenerative process.
I have heard a couple weeks ago a person in Italy said his friend was very sick in bed sleeping 21 hours a day and groggy and wondered what might help. I mentioned a Chinese research on losartan - an angiotensin receptor blocker - and the next day he said he had got a 50 milligram tablet of it, gave it to his friend and he said his friend was already out of bed, feeling okay. Then several days later he wrote again and said that his friend is exuberantly healthy and feels like he has new lungs. Vitamin D is known for quite a few years as a very reliable antiviral, anti-infective but it also increases at this anti-inflammatory enzyme along with progesterone, aspirin, and the anti serotonin drugs. That was the other best documented Chinese research. They were using an anti serotonin receptor blocker called cinanserin and having good results along with losartan."

Also - he recently said this:


Q: Hello Dr. Peat
What do you think of the "Innate immune system" and it's suppression and activation? Does it even exist and can you actually activate it or suppress it?

I hear a lot of doctors using angiotensin II receptor blockers like losartan and olmesartan just to name a few using it to improve innate immune response.
What is your take on it?

RP: Those do help; also quinine.
Please correct the drug's name. It's OlmEsartan.
 

RealNeat

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Have you tried olive leaf extract? @DGrouf on twitter swears by it, but he may think he knows more than what he really does know.
that's a good way to describe that guy
 
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UG Krishnamurti
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interesting
i heard milk and pomegranate juice have angiotensin inhibiting compounds. probably not as powerful as the drugs and supplements
apparently thiamine also could be one?

do you know which supplements or dietary factors would reduce/destroy angiotensin or boost ACE2? i think hes mentioned aspirin increases ACE2?
Interesting.

As far as I know B1, Aspirin, progesterone, calcium. D3 (not in my experience), sodium [Less than 5 grams of elemental sodium daily activates chronically angiotensin aldosterone system - RP] , Progesterone, OJ.
According to this research: ( Natural Flavonoids as Potential Angiotensin-Converting Enzyme 2 Inhibitors for Anti-SARS-CoV-2 ) natural flavonoids like quercetin and EGCG have potential as ACE1 and ACE2 inhibitors.

Could be these work in the same anti-inflammatory way you are describing here? We can source these naturally and can avoid pharmaceuticals.

I've read somewhere in some study that quercetin can stimulate the VDR so that falls into the picture that Trevor Marshall painted. But he still only specifically relies on olmesartan and antibiotics and avoiding VIT D supplementation.
Please correct the drug's name. It's OlmEsartan.

Thanks but I seem not be able to edit the post at the moment. I don't think it's a big deal.
 

Dr. B

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According to this research: ( Natural Flavonoids as Potential Angiotensin-Converting Enzyme 2 Inhibitors for Anti-SARS-CoV-2 ) natural flavonoids like quercetin and EGCG have potential as ACE1 and ACE2 inhibitors.

Could be these work in the same anti-inflammatory way you are describing here? We can source these naturally and can avoid pharmaceuticals.

I’m a COVID long hauler and currently looking for anything that can help get rid of my symptoms which are largely inflammation based, I think caused by leftover viral debris.


the quercetin and rutin are thiamine antagonists, they could potentially really mess you up? the supplemental doses provide far more than what youd get from orange juice.
 

rockarolla

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I've read somewhere in some study that quercetin can stimulate the VDR so that falls into the picture that Trevor Marshall painted.


Here he talks about quercetin a bit:


View: https://youtu.be/60-VAun2R6Q?t=703


also at the end of the video answering the question
 
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Inaut

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Here he talks about quercetin a bit:


View: https://youtu.be/60-VAun2R6Q?t=703


also at the end of the video answering the question

So sunlight isn't necessary for us mammals???? That's what he's saying...as there are no studies to prove it's benefits...I'm having cognitive dissonance :banghead:
 

rockarolla

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So sunlight isn't necessary for us mammals???? That's what he's saying...as there are no studies to prove it's benefits...I'm having cognitive dissonance :banghead:

Hahaha how it is possible that vit D is not necessary when in the same video he presents a poster showing D25 as a base of vitamin D receptor activation :D :D
 

Inaut

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Hahaha how it is possible that vit D is not necessary when in the same video he presents a poster showing D25 as a base of vitamin D receptor activation :D :D
He said ricketts wasn't due to lack of vitamin d but rather a lack of calcium (and phosphate). He gets a +1 for recognizing the importance of calcium i guess ---------IDK
 

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RP: Those do help; also quinine.

Not sure if people remember one recent podcast with Danny and Ray where I kept mentioning quinine as a rather interesting substance due to its broad therapeutic effects, and Ray said he will have a glass of tonic water to test the effects. It seems he has looked more into quinine recently (as I don't recall him mentioning it before in his writings/interviews) and has probably seen the many publication on its therapeutic effects. Here is one of them that likely contributed to his comment in regards to inflammation and COVID-19.
"...Of the three compounds, quinine shows the strongest affinity to the ACE2 receptor (-4.89 kcal/mol) followed by hydroxychloroquine (-3.87 kcal/mol), and chloroquine (-3.17 kcal/mol), respectively. In conclusion, quinine, chloroquine, and hydroxychloroquine could block the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus by interacting with residue Lys353 in the peptidase domain of ACE2 receptor, thus potential to be used as COVID-19 antidote. This study will add more insights to the mechanism of quinoline-based antimalarial drugs in inhibiting the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."

@pauljacob @Perry Staltic
 

Perry Staltic

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Not sure if people remember one recent podcast with Danny and Ray where I kept mentioning quinine as a rather interesting substance due to its broad therapeutic effects, and Ray said he will have a glass of tonic water to test the effects. It seems he has looked more into quinine recently (as I don't recall him mentioning it before in his writings/interviews) and has probably seen the many publication on its therapeutic effects. Here is one of them that likely contributed to his comment in regards to inflammation and COVID-19.
"...Of the three compounds, quinine shows the strongest affinity to the ACE2 receptor (-4.89 kcal/mol) followed by hydroxychloroquine (-3.87 kcal/mol), and chloroquine (-3.17 kcal/mol), respectively. In conclusion, quinine, chloroquine, and hydroxychloroquine could block the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus by interacting with residue Lys353 in the peptidase domain of ACE2 receptor, thus potential to be used as COVID-19 antidote. This study will add more insights to the mechanism of quinoline-based antimalarial drugs in inhibiting the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."

@pauljacob @Perry Staltic

Surprising. Wouldn't it be funny if people could have been using quinine all of this time instead of fretting about HCQ? Wonder what the dose would need to be?
 
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Not sure if people remember one recent podcast with Danny and Ray where I kept mentioning quinine as a rather interesting substance due to its broad therapeutic effects, and Ray said he will have a glass of tonic water to test the effects. It seems he has looked more into quinine recently (as I don't recall him mentioning it before in his writings/interviews) and has probably seen the many publication on its therapeutic effects. Here is one of them that likely contributed to his comment in regards to inflammation and COVID-19.
Hey Georgie thanks for chiming in.

Would you say Tonic water is the best way to get some quinines?
Schweppes Tonic water is the only available in my city that I'm aware off and they have some nasty ingredients like citric acid and lots of artificial sweeteners.

Is there any better way?
 

Dr. B

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Hey Georgie thanks for chiming in.

Would you say Tonic water is the best way to get some quinines?
Schweppes Tonic water is the only available in my city that I'm aware off and they have some nasty ingredients like citric acid and lots of artificial sweeteners.

Is there any better way?
what if you just supplement it in powder form or capsules
wiki says tonic water has much less quinine than it used to
it also has all kinds of side effects listed for quinine, is that in high doses. or is it lies?
 

Waynish

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I agree that MB is effective for this, but believing in viruses is one of Peat's major stumbling blocks. How do you know these are COVID-19 particles? An EM? No because that work hasn't been done. So it is worse than a guess - because we know from HIV/AIDS and many other topics that "viruses" (especially those detected by PCR & rapid testing) are break down material from cells. This is all a delusion due to the spell of "molecular biology."
 

mogwog

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Not sure if people remember one recent podcast with Danny and Ray where I kept mentioning quinine as a rather interesting substance due to its broad therapeutic effects, and Ray said he will have a glass of tonic water to test the effects. It seems he has looked more into quinine recently (as I don't recall him mentioning it before in his writings/interviews) and has probably seen the many publication on its therapeutic effects. Here is one of them that likely contributed to his comment in regards to inflammation and COVID-19.
"...Of the three compounds, quinine shows the strongest affinity to the ACE2 receptor (-4.89 kcal/mol) followed by hydroxychloroquine (-3.87 kcal/mol), and chloroquine (-3.17 kcal/mol), respectively. In conclusion, quinine, chloroquine, and hydroxychloroquine could block the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus by interacting with residue Lys353 in the peptidase domain of ACE2 receptor, thus potential to be used as COVID-19 antidote. This study will add more insights to the mechanism of quinoline-based antimalarial drugs in inhibiting the infection of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."

@pauljacob @Perry Staltic
I wonder of the link between quinine and tinnitus.
 

haidut

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Hey Georgie thanks for chiming in.

Would you say Tonic water is the best way to get some quinines?
Schweppes Tonic water is the only available in my city that I'm aware off and they have some nasty ingredients like citric acid and lots of artificial sweeteners.

Is there any better way?

Based on another study (below), which showed quinine synergism with methylene blue (MB), doses of 1mg-5mg MB and 150mg-200mg quinine daily should be enough. The doses of HCQ used for COVID-19 are 200mg x 4-5 times daily, but quinine is more effective and less toxic, so my guess is that 200mg quinine twice daily is probably good enough on its own and when combined with the MB even once daily dose is probably enough. For inflammation-controlling purposes, discussed in Peat's latest newsletter in regards specifically to quinine (what a coincidence!), I personally feel best on 200mg twice a day.

As far as Tonic water - regulations were changed in the late 20th century to limit quinine contents in commercial products. When the British were conquering tropical nations (full of malaria) in the 19th century the tonic water they used had 300mg-500mg quinine per 1 L ( ~1 quart) of liquid. That concentrations has now been lowered by law in most countries to <100mg per 1L. So, you'd have to drink quite a bit of tonic water to get even 200mg. Amazon has several products from cinchona bark and they should have decent amount of quinine in them but hard to tell how much exactly without a certificate of analysis.
The tinnitus risk from quinine usage is about the same as aspirin's, so the same guidelines/doses apply.

@mogwog @UG Krishnamurti
 

Jam

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Based on another study (below), which showed quinine synergism with methylene blue (MB), doses of 1mg-5mg MB and 150mg-200mg quinine daily should be enough. The doses of HCQ used for COVID-19 are 200mg x 4-5 times daily, but quinine is more effective and less toxic, so my guess is that 200mg quinine twice daily is probably good enough on its own and when combined with the MB even once daily dose is probably enough. For inflammation-controlling purposes, discussed in Peat's latest newsletter in regards specifically to quinine (what a coincidence!), I personally feel best on 200mg twice a day.
Excellent find! And a nice bit of synchronicity. Both your post and Ray's newsletter simultaneously materialized just as I was contemplating putting a couple drops of MB (instead of the usual tincture of juniper) in my tonic water,..
 

nejdev

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Based on another study (below), which showed quinine synergism with methylene blue (MB), doses of 1mg-5mg MB and 150mg-200mg quinine daily should be enough. The doses of HCQ used for COVID-19 are 200mg x 4-5 times daily, but quinine is more effective and less toxic, so my guess is that 200mg quinine twice daily is probably good enough on its own and when combined with the MB even once daily dose is probably enough. For inflammation-controlling purposes, discussed in Peat's latest newsletter in regards specifically to quinine (what a coincidence!), I personally feel best on 200mg twice a day.

As far as Tonic water - regulations were changed in the late 20th century to limit quinine contents in commercial products. When the British were conquering tropical nations (full of malaria) in the 19th century the tonic water they used had 300mg-500mg quinine per 1 L ( ~1 quart) of liquid. That concentrations has now been lowered by law in most countries to <100mg per 1L. So, you'd have to drink quite a bit of tonic water to get even 200mg. Amazon has several products from cinchona bark and they should have decent amount of quinine in them but hard to tell how much exactly without a certificate of analysis.
The tinnitus risk from quinine usage is about the same as aspirin's, so the same guidelines/doses apply.

@mogwog @UG Krishnamurti
heya @haidut , been watching your videos with Ray and Danny Roddy. Do you have any where you discuss long COVID? Would love to know. Thanks for all the great content.
 

haidut

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heya @haidut , been watching your videos with Ray and Danny Roddy. Do you have any where you discuss long COVID? Would love to know. Thanks for all the great content.

Seems to be driven to unresolved inflammation due to the initial infection, which keeps metabolism low. Same probable cause as CFS, which matches several recent study findings that CFS patients seem to have unresolved viral infection or a post-viral heightened immune (e.g. inflammation) response.
 

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