Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

[haidut]

High NO gave me strong bigger erections in the past, from what I read high libido could be high estrogenic activity (for example).

And all that is great until NO ruins your insulin sensitivity and then no Viagra can help. Look it up, NO causes insulin resistance and even diabetes and then those people do not respond to ED drugs.

 

[Wagner83]

And all that is great until NO ruins your insulin sensitivity and then no Viagra can help. Look it up, NO causes insulin resistance and even diabetes and then those people do not respond to ED drugs.

I stopped the short-lived NO boosting protocol (aragula, citrulline, beets) a long time ago, I felt like I could have died from it as it made asthma and allergies so much worse I could barely breathe at night.

 

[Wagner83]

I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best.

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.

How do you explain that lower doses of progesterone still gave him plenty of issues and that he "never did well on dhea":

The first few days of lower dose progesterone I felt androgentic then towards the 3rd or 4th day I started to get water retention, flat muscle, no libido etc. However, when I found I added 5mg of DHEA in it reversed the anti androgen sides to an extent. By I never did well on DHEA so I stopped the combo eventually. Never tried progesterone with DHT though

 

[haidut]

How do you explain that lower doses of progesterone still gave him plenty of issues and that he "never did well on dhea":

If his progesterone was already optimal or high then it would not do much good to add more. This stack is for people who want to stop excessive tissue catabolism, and he may not be one of those people. Judging from this posts his is already muscular/athletic. I did not suggest everybody bathe in progesterone/DHEA. Just wanted to show that progesterone is GR antagonist and can be anti-catabolic for the people that need it. Not all people will need it.

 

[milk_lover]

I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.

haidut, we discussed somewhere on the forum before about combining progesterone and DHEA in one supplement and you said something about supplement orthogonality. Pregnenolone for me at low doses makes me anxious. I tried it alone using Stressnone and MRM brand and both make me anxious.. However, your pansterone is making me avoid the pregnenolone anxiety effect due to DHEA I think.. So in light of this fantastic thread, I think prog+DHEA stack in a single supplement will work even better than preg+DHEA to some people in the forum, including me. I can understand supplement orthogonality since you have progesterone by itself and andro by itself, but you don't have DHEA by itself.. I am not anti-pregnenolone. I am sure it's great and it has its uses. But I really want to try a clean DHEA+prog+andro combo topically and see what it would yield.

 

[Serotoninja]

Interesting thoughts, thanks Haidut. Is 5a-DHP a strong antagonist of GR too? The 5a-DHP/androsterone/DHEA stack may be quite potent as well since 5a-DHP has no or very little anti-androgenic activity

 

[DHT]

interesting that you mention that AAS are supplements or im understanding sth wrong here ?

 

[Ron J]

Wouldn't a 5AR enzyme product be like taking DHT?

 

[haidut]

haidut, we discussed somewhere on the forum before about combining progesterone and DHEA in one supplement and you said something about supplement orthogonality. Pregnenolone for me at low doses makes me anxious. I tried it alone using Stressnone and MRM brand and both make me anxious.. However, your pansterone is making me avoid the pregnenolone anxiety effect due to DHEA I think.. So in light of this fantastic thread, I think prog+DHEA stack in a single supplement will work even better than preg+DHEA to some people in the forum, including me. I can understand supplement orthogonality since you have progesterone by itself and andro by itself, but you don't have DHEA by itself.. I am not anti-pregnenolone. I am sure it's great and it has its uses. But I really want to try a clean DHEA+prog+andro combo topically and see what it would yield.

I think I will release progesterone + DHEA as supplement. This way people can try either stack and if needed modulate it with either extra pregnenolone (StressNon) or progesterone (Progestene).

 

[haidut]

interesting that you mention that AAS are supplements or im understanding sth wrong here ?

Where did I call AAS supplements? I specifically said AAS to avoid people thinking some steroids like DHT are supplements. So, suplpements OR AAS is what I meant to convey.

 

[haidut]

Wouldn't a 5AR enzyme product be like taking DHT?

Only if you produce enough T. If T levels are below the 50% range the body usually conserves it and does not make much DHT unless you are under stress and that is when DHT and androsterone production rises to protect the brain and other androgenic tissues.
Brain and Serum Androsterone Is Elevated in Response to Stress in Rats with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Ron J]

Only if you produce enough T. If T levels are below the 50% range the body usually conserves it and does not make much DHT unless you are under stress and that is when DHT and androsterone production rises to protect the brain and other androgenic tissues.
Brain and Serum Androsterone Is Elevated in Response to Stress in Rats with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury. - PubMed - NCBI

What about supplementing with a lot of cholesterol(only way to avoid too much PUFA, that I'm aware of) + the 5AR enzyme product and taking things that keep your estrogen/aromatization at a minimum? Would it then be like taking DHT?

 

[milk_lover]

I think I will release progesterone + DHEA as supplement. This way people can try either stack and if needed modulate it with either extra pregnenolone (StressNon) or progesterone (Progestene).

Great news :)

Thanks for all these awesome studies and supplements. I think K2, D3, prog/preg, DHEA, andro, glycine, aspirin, caffeine, and B-vitamins on top of a healthy diet will solve most of the diseases if done patiently and strategically.

 

[TubZy]

I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.

Unfortunately, for me I did use a lower dose (5mg) and even lower. It starts off good for the first two days or so than things go in the opposite direction. However, I did not test my progesterone levels so I don't know if they were at the top tier already.

Regarding RU, yes we did note in PFS thread that at higher doses, it can become a progestin and is also anti androgenic. Anyone taking 600mg+ is pretty crazy let alone it will out a huge hole in your wallet. The people that are trialing including myself have landed on a good dose of 50mg per day with great results. 100mg is too high and 25mg is too low.

 

[haidut]

It starts off good for the first two days or so than things go in the opposite direction

What about the "rebound" gbolduev talks about? When stopped, progesterone should have very similar effects to RU486. After all, progesterone is also a SPRM, ER/GR antagonist. Did you experience any benefits post-taking?

 

[TubZy]

What about the "rebound" gbolduev talks about? When stopped, progesterone should have very similar effects to RU486. After all, progesterone is also a SPRM, ER/GR antagonist. Did you experience any benefits post-taking?

Nothing noticeable when I came off it. Maybe I didn't use enough, idk.

Gbol suggested high dose progesterone (200mg) for a week then stopping for PFS people who have high progesterone and to make them more sensitive. I never tried that route, however @Orion did who is suffering from post accutane and claimed he got great results from it. That is also similar to coming off RU as he claims RU will make you super DHT sensitive when coming off of it.

 

[haidut]

Nothing noticeable when I came off it. Maybe I didn't use enough, idk.

Gbol suggested high dose progesterone (200mg) for a week then stopping for PFS people who have high progesterone and to make them more sensitive. I never tried that route, however @Orion did who is suffering from post accutane and claimed he got great results from it. That is also similar to coming off RU as he claims RU will make you super DHT sensitive when coming off of it.

OK, if anybody tries the progesterone + androgen combo and shared feedback please let me know.

 

[Dante]

Only if you produce enough T. If T levels are below the 50% range the body usually conserves it and does not make much DHT

Can you post the study where you read about this threshold 50%?

 

[Regina]

I posted exactly the same for a steroid cycle in PFS thread a week ago. I said that if anyone would take steroids, they should take testosterone with progesterone. Since taking testosterone alone will tank 3 beta hsd. taking androsterone inhibits 5 alpha reductase that is why it works for PFS. I am anti Peat , I dont take any ideas from Peat

I block cortisol( or increase the need for it) to increase it sensitivity . Peat says cortisol is evil. and to lower it.I want cortisol to be more sensitive. DHEA does not block cortisol. It lowers pregnenolone conversions. Thus tanks the whole glucocorticoid branch. Thus many people crash on it and get hypokalemia.

Progesterone binds to cortisol receptors and activates glutamine synthase only at 21% of cortisol but agonizes cortisol receptors. That is why in cortisol deficiency , you get anxiety. this is understandable, since exogenous progesterone or progestins lower 3 beta hsd and zinc, and zinc is needed for glutamine synthase as active b6 depends on it.

Many women use progesterone to lose their muscular hands, progesterone will tank testosterone = NO MUSCLES

There is no anabolic supplement. Some people need more catabolism and some people need more anabolism. Read Revici work, some cancers are in anabolism and some in catabolism.

All you guys do here is opposite of what Peat says. You block cortisol, you make it more sensitive( I SAY THAT). It is not like you constantly block it to zero. Just block it to zero and live with it. YOU will die. Block serotonin to zero and live with it. You will die from it.

You are doing completely opposite of what you are saying. Your are blocking cortisol for a week. This makes it super sensitive. Then you get off and dont take the supplement. This is what fasting does.

You block serotonin receptor , then you get off the supplement. Serotonin becomes MORE not less.

And now you claim the opposite. LOL NO it is not me stealing the ideas, it is you will be stealing mine soon and spinning Peat into my understanding.

I dont rec any steroids. since if you take testosterone with progesterone, this will make your zinc biounvailable and many other vitamins and minerals biounvailable/

Your PH regulation will be screwed up. since zinc is used in many enzymes.

All these steroid cycles are nonsense and will ruin your health. Even taking pregnenolone will cause problems,since when you take pregnenolone. You make iron biounavailable since you tank 450scc

When you tank your biounavailable iron, you tank your progesterone to cortisol conversion, since you need iron in 11 beta. You also tank your 5 alpha . since DHT requires iron.

So pregnenolone will cause estrogen to go up, to oppose progesterone rise from pregnenolone intake. since conversion of progesterone to cortisol goes down. If iron was there, then metabolism could have gone up. since cortisol conversion depends on IRON.


This is why no one can tolerate thyroid with low iron level. WHY? since iron is needed to convert progesterone to cortisol, and without cortisol, you will have thyroid resistance.


Zinc will increase progesterone levels, THIS INCREASES CORTISOL IN SLOW OXIDIZERS and LOWERS IT IN FAST OXIDIZERS .

Progesterone and progestins also will always act differently on the receptor depending on the cell potassium level.

Will zinc (say 30mg per day) help my iron deficiency anemia?

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2015/292574/

 

[haidut]

Can you post the study where you read about this threshold 50%?

The studies I have seen were in vitro and quote T concentration in nM/L, which I converted to the range used in labs for humans. There are no in vivo studies I know if but there are probably are some if anybody feels like digging for them.