The psychology of compulsive supplementation

[OccamzRazer]

Many on this forum appear to be afraid of food.

Afraid of food, so they turn to supplements...

Or afraid of food, so they become crazed fasting proponents?

 

[OccamzRazer]

A 20 or 30 year old with high pufa better not fast. If they do they better know what they are doing.

You are probably right.

I wonder if modified fasting would work. Bone broth, fruit, and maybe some additional MCT or coconut oil...would probably be enough to burn off PUFA slowly.

Even when fasting isn't the right choice, people can consider other types of inward-to-outward healing.

 

[aniciete]

I can't find it either. From memory, he said in an audio show when talking about sugar, that an ideal amount of sugar per day is the amount contained in a quart of orange juice, then I think he said something like, "if you consume more than that, you'll want to supplement with some thiamine". Take it with a grain of salt; I can't find the quote. While searching with this search engine: Bioenergetic Search for "B1", then for "thiamine", I did find that he says he's had good effects with as little as 10mgs of thiamine and that 100mgs is fine. I'm taking more than that, but then I've been diagnosed with lead poisoning, which increases the need for thiamine.

Here's a collection of written quotes by Ray Peat about thiamine: Ray Peat On Vitamin B1 - Thiamine

Do you think 10mg needs to be balanced with other b vitamins or is it fine taken on it’s own?

 

[LUH 3417]

Fair enough, I guess everyone's experience is different!

What B vitamin did you take, and what allergies did it eliminate? Just out of curiousity.

True spirituality should be about dissolving or at least limiting the ego, so I wouldn't doubt that any other kind of spirituality could have bad effects.

Yea but who are you to say what is true and untrue spirituality? If you don’t have an ego how can you lay claim on another persons experience? And by saying who are you in playing devils advocate.

I take ancient nutrients B vitamins. I would have allergy attacks very often, despite cutting out gluten dairy meat etc at diff points.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Yea but who are you to say what is true and untrue spirituality? If you don’t have an ego how can you lay claim on another persons experience? And by saying who are you in playing devils advocate.

Good point. I think love is the most true thing, and easy enough to identify whether or not the ego is involved.

Beyond that things get subjective pretty fast...so it's important to respect other peoples' experiences.

Sorry if I wasn't respectful enough of yours!

 

[InChristAlone]

Hardest thing in life is letting go. Holding on too tightly to the past or to the future can keep us stuck and looking for quick fixes. The most simple cure all is surrendering to our direct experience. Except it turns out it can be the hardest thing to do. That is why it is said, "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

 

[OccamzRazer]

I take ancient nutrients B vitamins. I would have allergy attacks very often, despite cutting out gluten dairy meat etc at diff points.

Also I finally see what you are saying here: supplementation was more healing for you than the inner/spiritual approach, right?

 

[stressless]

Hey thanks for your insight! This is definitely a good topic to discuss, even if the discussion flows wildly from one subtopic to the next.

I hate to completely de-rail the convo but I've been watching a lot of youtube videos on 'get rich quick' crypto scams lately and it's been top of mind ?

Catholicism is cool! Can't help but bring this up, tho...don't Catholics have modified fasting days with no meat or similar limitations?

This is a good point! Yes, we do have fasting days and meatless days. On the fasting days we can eat 3 meals per day (1 large and 2 small) and can take liquids at any time, so eating pro-metabolically is doable, especially for healthy people. The modern, post-Vatican 2 "Catholic" church may have different rules on fasting, but I attend and follow the traditional pre-Vatican II Catholic church. This is a whole other tangent I won't get into :)

I personally have always struggled to do the fast (I've always been unhealthy, but getting better!), even with the 3 meals, so I talked to my pastor and he gave me a dispensation for fasting. I know other people in my community who can't do the fast either and are given a dispensation as well (I know a priest who has diabetes and does not fast). Instead of fasting, I try to find other ways to make small sacrifices on those days to still keep in the spirit of why we fast. Your point on God having mercy on us again and again is very true, Catholicism does accommodate health issues. Sometimes the Catholic church can come across as extreme, but it is actually very balanced, in addition to the fast, we are also required to take care of our bodies and the Church allows pastors to give dispensations when needed.

This brings up another point, which I think some other people brought up. I think getting a fasting dispensation for Catholics is much more common in my generation than in my grandparents generation which is probably a sign that my generation is a lot more unhealthy and have been exposed to a lot worse foods, environmental factors, etc. etc. Some other people brought up this point in this thread as well, we're all just unhealthier and it's hard to get access to foods with good nutrients so supplementing may be necessary, although this is not an excuse to keep trying to eat well (I'm talking to myself here haha)

Regardless, prayer is a huge thing. It's all too easy to forget about God - thankfully He seems to have mercy on us again and again lol.

I agree - I tend to get stuck in the science and weeds and the tiny details, but need to remember that God allows everything to happen or not happen.

 

[LUH 3417]

Also I finally see what you are saying here: supplementation was more healing for you than the inner/spiritual approach, right?

Idk that the two can even be separated tbh. If I’m taking supplements and trying to work on my health, isn’t that a practice of self love? Why is fasting more loving than taking a b vitamin or eating a 1000 calorie breakfast after years of undereating in the name of some idealistic goal of spiritual evolution?

I think I am just really skeptical of idealism, anything vague with a moving target like that. Take covid mania as an example, the ideal being virus free life. I mean just look at how an ideal of hygiene has been manipulated. I think it’s very easy to do that with “spiritual” concepts, I mean it’s easy to do it with material concepts let alone with abstractions. Like a pedophile can claim they love children, that’s their experience of love. It just gets so confusing when you try to delve into any of this stuff I tend to want to remain grounded in my body and experience of life and other people rather than all the other unknown planes.

 

[Kayaker]

I think I am just really skeptical of idealism, anything vague with a moving target like that. Take covid mania as an example, the ideal being virus free life. I mean just look at how an ideal of hygiene has been manipulated. I think it’s very easy to do that with “spiritual” concepts, I mean it’s easy to do it with material concepts let alone with abstractions. Like a pedophile can claim they love children, that’s their experience of love. It just gets so confusing when you try to delve into any of this stuff

 

[OccamzRazer]

Idk that the two can even be separated tbh. If I’m taking supplements and trying to work on my health, isn’t that a practice of self love? Why is fasting more loving than taking a b vitamin or eating a 1000 calorie breakfast after years of undereating in the name of some idealistic goal of spiritual evolution?

Absolutely! Intention is everything, and supplementation can & should be an act of love towards oneself.

About fasting: if you look at the original post here, you'll see that it's not about fasting. It's about an inner-focused mindset that acknowledges that fasting could be helpful...versus an outward-focused mindset that discounts fasting pretty, well, fast.

 

[OccamzRazer]

I think I am just really skeptical of idealism, anything vague with a moving target like that. Take covid mania as an example, the ideal being virus free life. I mean just look at how an ideal of hygiene has been manipulated. I think it’s very easy to do that with “spiritual” concepts, I mean it’s easy to do it with material concepts let alone with abstractions. Like a pedophile can claim they love children, that’s their experience of love. It just gets so confusing when you try to delve into any of this stuff I tend to want to remain grounded in my body and experience of life and other people rather than all the other unknown planes.

Fair enough, good to be skeptical in this current age lol.

To me love is pretty straightforward, tho it doesn't help that in the English language we have one word for many different kinds of love.

Real agape love, as Greek Christians called it, doesn't seek its own wellbeing over the wellbeing of others.

 

[LUH 3417]

Absolutely! Intention is everything, and supplementation can & should be an act of love towards oneself.

About fasting: if you look at the original post here, you'll see that it's not about fasting. It's about an inner-focused mindset that acknowledges that fasting could be helpful...versus an outward-focused mindset that discounts fasting pretty, well, fast.

I see. Do you feel like you changed as person from encounters you’ve had while fasting?

 

[OccamzRazer]

Hardest thing in life is letting go. Holding on too tightly to the past or to the future can keep us stuck and looking for quick fixes. The most simple cure all is surrendering to our direct experience. Except it turns out it can be the hardest thing to do. That is why it is said, "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Totally agree!

Once one has let go and passed thru that metaphorical gate, things seem to open up again...but only for as long as the mindset of 'letting go' remains.

 

[OccamzRazer]

I see. Do you feel like you changed as person from encounters you’ve had while fasting?

Yes, tho only slightly. Other things have caused much more profound changes.

 

[OccamzRazer]

@LUH 3417

Red light, legal psychedelics, certain kinds of workouts, and sexual transmutation work have all been much more impactful than fasting has been.

 

[Peatful]

Afraid of food, so they turn to supplements...

Or afraid of food, so they become crazed fasting proponents?

What do you think?
If you agree or disagree....



I see a fear of fat or not being lean.
I see odd relationships to self and food.
I see people continuing to “eat peaty” but it totally wreck their health (or certainly not help it).
Orthorexia.
Food fear not freedom.
Chasing dogma.


This is observation not criticism.

I see it because I can identify.

I saw a naturopath for a year- and really his supplemental approach was no different than an allopathic MD pushing pharmaceuticals.

Supplements don’t bring health.
They are a supplement to our diet.
Short term if needed at all.

 

[OccamzRazer]

What do you think?

What do I think? Neither approach is correct; things done out of fear rarely are.

The orthorexia vs. food freedom thing reminds me of this verse for some reason:

"Better a small serving of vegetables with love than a fattened calf with hatred." ~ Proverbs 15:17

I saw a naturopath for a year- and really his supplemental approach was no different than an allopathic MD pushing pharmaceuticals.

Supplements don’t being health.
They are a supplement to our diet.
Short term if needed at all.

This sums things up nicely! In both cases, the health 'solutions' are inefficient and pricey.

 

[looking2grow96]

I appreciate that you seem to have broken people's brains by mentioning fasting @OccamzRazer. I largely agree with you on the supplementation part. Also, I feel as though some aren't in touch with their body as they may feel and would highly benefit from things like blood tests rather than going by feel. An example that comes to mind is people believing theyre radically suppressing their estrogen by using 1mg Androsterone a day, or people believing that taking Vitamin K for a few months gave them a new face.

 

[OccamzRazer]

This is a good point! Yes, we do have fasting days and meatless days. On the fasting days we can eat 3 meals per day (1 large and 2 small) and can take liquids at any time, so eating pro-metabolically is doable, especially for healthy people. The modern, post-Vatican 2 "Catholic" church may have different rules on fasting, but I attend and follow the traditional pre-Vatican II Catholic church. This is a whole other tangent I won't get into :)

Interesting...as long as wine and prayer are allowed, count me in lol!

And I'm glad you are into the traditional Catholic way! (One of my friends is a nun so I've heard all about Vatican II.)

Instead of fasting, I try to find other ways to make small sacrifices on those days to still keep in the spirit of why we fast.

Hey intention is everything, so surely God understands. Reminds of these verses from the Old Testament:

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you..."