The Promotion Of Dairy Vs. The Promotion Of Kale

[oldfriend]

At the moment, I am currently doing a dairy-free diet experiment. So my protein is coming from fruit, potatoes, and sometimes white rice and some gelatin here and there. Basically fruit and tubers (and some greens to get the calcium I need). But even without the gelatin I am easily getting 80 grams or so of protein. Oranges and potatoes have more protein than is stated on the nutrition facts label too, due to the keto acids, so my real protein intake is probably even higher than that.

I'm thinking of trying something like this. I used to eat practically fruitarian, which fixed my gut up good. Protein was definitely lacking though and eventually ran into fatigue. Taking a classic peat approach had some initial gains (again, suspect protein), but stubbornly adhered to it after plateauing and creating new problems. IDK why I was convinced that foods I've never tolerated were somehow good in spite of that. Anyways, @Waremu what does a typical day look like for you? And do you not attribute the high calcium on your crono screen shot mostly to molasses?

 

[Mountain]

Why it's wrong to kill a human then? we are animals too, what if I killed your dog or your cat tomorrow? I bet you'd care, it's the same with pigs, cows, etc for me because I don't suffer from speciesism. As Bentham put it: ''A full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversible animal, than an infant of a day, a week or even a month old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?''
There's also a difference between hunting a wild animal for food and artificially farming animals in tiny enclosures and slaughtering them after a ridiculously brief ''existence'' of pure misery. But either way it's not sustainable and totally unnecessary. You can as well envision a superior alien race landing on earth tomorrow and taking a liking for human meat starting doing that to us to see how much wrong that is, I bet you would be ok with the aliens farming humans in small local farms tho lol, as long as they left you free to go for a walk once in a while.

Plus, I already told you that more than 99% of the meat we consume comes from factory farming, so the organic small farms (who still mostly slaughter the animals at the same horrifying slaughterhouses utilized by factory farms btw) or even the people who hunt in the wild for their meat are completely irrelevant in the discussion.

The comments on reducing suffering of animals because they can suffer is almost a religious one and it's weird that you don't see that. Of course I would not like it if someone killed my pets, they are my companions you dummy. I already said that the prime directive is the preservation of self and like-self so naturally it isn't advantageous to be killed or kill humans for food. But I can imagine that it wouldn't be abnormal to kill and eat humans from other tribes.

Again with the comments on factory farming. Also you're behaving like there is some 'rule' against humans enslaving other animals for our benefit. There isn't haha -- I don't think you've thought it through outside the lens of society. All of this talk about killing animal as being bad just comes from a life lived separate from food production.

 

[Sicutnoxsilente]

The comments on reducing suffering of animals because they can suffer is almost a religious one and it's weird that you don't see that. Of course I would not like it if someone killed my pets, they are my companions you dummy. I already said that the prime directive is the preservation of self and like-self so naturally it isn't advantageous to be killed or kill humans for food. But I can imagine that it wouldn't be abnormal to kill and eat humans from other tribes.

Again with the comments on factory farming. Also you're behaving like there is some 'rule' against humans enslaving other animals for our benefit. There isn't haha -- I don't think you've thought it through outside the lens of society. All of this talk about killing animal as being bad just comes from a life lived separate from food production.

You do not possess any ethical dimension whatsoever, so it's pointless to keep going.
Factory farming is where more than 99% of the meat the world consume comes from, so it's the relevant argument here, hunting and organic farms are not sustainable to feed the world population (even factory farm won't be sustainable in the long run), in fact they feed less than 1% of it.
You should study some philosophy and some history of ethics, because debating ignorant rednecks on things they know nothing about is not how I want to waste my time.

 

[oldfriend]

The comments on reducing suffering of animals because they can suffer is almost a religious one and it's weird that you don't see that. Of course I would not like it if someone killed my pets, they are my companions you dummy. I already said that the prime directive is the preservation of self and like-self so naturally it isn't advantageous to be killed or kill humans for food. But I can imagine that it wouldn't be abnormal to kill and eat humans from other tribes.

Again with the comments on factory farming. Also you're behaving like there is some 'rule' against humans enslaving other animals for our benefit. There isn't haha -- I don't think you've thought it through outside the lens of society. All of this talk about killing animal as being bad just comes from a life lived separate from food production.

I do agree that ethical veganism is almost a religion. It's got all the dogma, guilt, and magical thinking of one. But I also think that factory farming is cruel and unusual, and that many of the points made here are valid. It is not a fact of life that animals must be tortured for our survival, and it's weird that you don't see that.

 

[michael94]

I do agree that ethical veganism is almost a religion. It's got all the dogma, guilt, and magical thinking of one. But I also think that factory farming is cruel and unusual, and that many of the points made here are valid. It is not a fact of life that animals must be tortured for our survival, and it's weird that you don't see that.

Earth is a factory farm

 

[Waremu]

I'm thinking of trying something like this. I used to eat practically fruitarian, which fixed my gut up good. Protein was definitely lacking though and eventually ran into fatigue. Taking a classic peat approach had some initial gains (again, suspect protein), but stubbornly adhered to it after plateauing and creating new problems. IDK why I was convinced that foods I've never tolerated were somehow good in spite of that. Anyways, @Waremu what does a typical day look like for you? And do you not attribute the high calcium on your crono screen shot mostly to molasses?

Maybe you also felt fatigue because you weren’t getting enough total calories that you thought you were getting. I know a lot of the time people who eat high fruit based diets often think they’re eating more calories than they really are due to the fiber of the whole foods. Perhaps once you began adding in dairy which is a more of a concentrated source of calories, that also helped with the fatigue. This was the case with me at least.

Yes, I agree. I have always done better with what I best tolerated as well, which is a plant based type of Peat inspired diet.

After I got my thyroid in good status and body temp and pulse up, with routine labs done, testosterone in a healthy range, all of those things, I still never felt as good as when I ate a largely fruit based diet. I always would get skin rashes on my face (not acne) and at that time I ate no starch for a few years and regular carrots. It wasn’t high endotoxin because digestion was good. Once I cut dairy out the red rashes went away. It is directly linked to the dairy and whether it was raw or store bought organic, it made no difference. My motivation was very low for things as well due to the the diary (likely due to the natural opiate effects). After cutting out diary, I noticed severe side effects (like severe brain fog) too which have now subsided. So along with the research I have done, I just don’t feel dairy is that natural nor that healthy. I think there is way too much speculation about the negative aspects of dairy (like overlooking the high methionine content and estrogen content) via giving theoretical assumptions to explain why it’s not a problem as opposed to other foods which suffer from the same negatives but are left out.

I have come to the conclusion that the key to keeping endotoxin low (aside from many of the Peat recommendations like raw carrot and keeping PUFA low) is regular process and elimination — to keep eating fiber containing foods that digest easily and will keep the bowl movements going and digestion going and keep the elimination process regular throughout the day. Keeping fiber containing easy to digest foods such as fruit moving through the digestive system throughout the day will keep the elimination process high so that endotoxin is continually being moved out and not stagnating and growing. With a heavy dairy diet bowl movements just are not as regular for me (most likely due to the casein). When I cut dairy out and increase fruit then the elimination process is better and I feel lighter and have better mental clarity and better skin, which is likely due to less endotoxin load due to an increased elimination of waste.

Anyway, as far as diet goes, here is a typical day I ate recently, below. As you can see, no molasses in this one. High calcium, good amount of protein (actually 100 plus grams with Keto acids from the potatoes and oranges), plenty of minerals and vitamins, etc. So yes, it’s quite easy to get that calcium without molasses. I just use molasses from time to time on days where I don’t feel like or have the time to make a green broth for calcium or eat many greens, or are just too lazy to make much food. Also I often have molasses and Cacao for extra Zinc. The real selenium content is much higher because it doesn’t adequately track the selenium content of the broccoli, or cacao. Also, it appears goji berries are very high in selenium and sometimes I have a small bit to boost it. Also, my potatoes are usually always boiled. Preasoprtion issues with potatoes usually will come from cooking it directly. From the research I have seen, when you boil potatoes the starch granules swell so large that they are no longer small enough to cause preasorption issues. I didn’t include carrots in the below food diary as well, but I always try to eat raw carrots 1-2 times per day. Some days I also get more fat from coconut.

 

[Kartoffel]

Yes, but it's a good starting point. And you necessarily don't need to know all enzymatic pathways and mechanisms involved when using enzymes to reduce. And there may be such studies. I'll be looking more for some. Also, it's reasonable to raise this not only because this has been observed with enzymes, but we also know that this has also been observed with Gluten. As Travis correctly pointed out once, it has been observed that peptides of similar length to beta-casomorphine-7 are often detected after food consumption; Gluten B5 concentrations were given after pizza ingestion:

Pennington, C. "Detection of gluten exorphin B4 and B5 in human blood by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry/mass spectrometry." The Open Spectroscopy Journal (2007)

Yanga, Shuzhang. "Rubiscolin, a N selective opioid peptide derived from plant Rubisco." FEBS Letters (2001)


So, 1. you have a the culture experiments which show this may be possible with casein peptides, and 2. you have peptides of similar length such as Gluten exorphin B4/B5 being detected after consumption. If we go by evidence, it would seem more likely that the evidence seems to lean more towards there being a similar case with milk than not, thus far.



And judging from the poor health of many heavy protein eaters, it just might be the case that other proteins are such problematic. As already stated above, we now know this to be the case with wheat gluten --- an gluten intolerance/allergy/issues alone is a very common problem. In fact, considering how many people having problems producing sufficient stomach acid, and the high prevalence of low levels of Vitamin B-12 even among meat eaters in of itself would seem to back this case up, since proper stomach acid production is needed for proper protein digestion, and is also required to liberate vitamin B12 from food.




Correct, but as mentioned earlier, most Peaterians don't eat as much meat as often as they do milk/dairy. For example, even using your methionine content food list, let's take a typical day for a typical Peaterian who adheres to the diet fairly well, with the recommended higher protein intake that Peat advocates, getting about 120 grams of protein in this conservative example:

Breakfast: Coffee, oranges, 2 eggs, 1.2 cup of milk

863+ mg methionine (30g protein)


Lunch: Oranges, dates, 3.4 cups low fat milk:

732mg of methionine (30g of protein)

Dinner: Meat, Mexican coke, decaf coffee, 1.2 cups milk

774mg methionine (30g protein)

Before bed snack: Gelatin, 3.4 cups of milk and sugar

366+ mg methionine (30g of protein)

Total intake: 2,735mg of methionine, 120 grams of protein

From the studies I've seen and low methionine diet programs used by various physicians, it appears that generally speaking, Methionine-restricted diets allow 800-1200 mg methionine per day for most adults.

On this moderate -- not even high protein --- Peaterian type of diet, you're getting 2.3 t0 3.5 times the amount of methionine than most methionine restricted diets advocate in order to see the possible longevity benefits of methionine restriction.

This isn't a 'modest amount' of methionine, if we are to compare it to what is considered a methionine restricted diet. It's fairly high. And if we compare it to the amount of protein most real-world Peaterians consume, you're probably looking at 4-6 times the methionine easy. That's a lot.




Why wouldn't most Peaterians consume more milk than eggs? Thats an odd statement. Peat advocates a high calcium, high milk/dairy diet, and to get at least 80-100 grams of protein; Peat advocates that the majority of protein comes from milk/dairy and gelatin, ideally speaking. Peat also advocates splitting caloric intake into small meals throughout the day by the space of a few hours each meal.

The Ray Peat type of diet by design is going to be high dairy. Peat doesn't advocate a high muscle meat or egg diet, where the majority of your protein comes from such foods. But of course even if you don't eat as much dairy and consume mostly muscle meat instead, your methionine content will be even be higher, which is even worse.

A diet that relies on heavy use of dairy, especially in conjunction to meat/eggs, is going to be a high methionine diet. And frankly, I'm more concerned about this than even the opiate-effects of dairy.

I don't understand where you are going with this. You keep repeating that a "Peatarian" (whatever that is) would eat more dairy than meat or eggs and that a typical diet would yield around 120g of protein - so what is your argument against dairy here? I can only repeat myself again. You would still get more methionine from these 120g of protein, if the protein came from meat or eggs. I don't think there is anything inherent in milk that would cause you to automatically consume more protein. Milk has less methionine per gram of protein. If you want to eat very little methionine, you have to reduce your total protein intake (assuming you don't wanna eat lots of gelatine), regardless of whether you favor dairy or meat, but with dairy you could get a little more total protein while getting the same amount of methionine as in a meat/eggs diet.
So, your criticism is directed at Peat's recommendation of what he considers adequate protein intake (70-120g) rather than the emphasis on dairy. There are certainly studies that suggest that lowering protein intake can extend longevity. But I believe that only works when protein intake intake is restricted starting at birth. I also suspect that the ratio of amino acids is more important than total intake of methionine, cysteine, tryptophan, etc, as long as the total intake is within a certain range. I certainly fell stressed on a low protein diet (40-50g).

 

[Kartoffel]

I have come to the conclusion that the key to keeping endotoxin low (aside from many of the Peat recommendations like raw carrot and keeping PUFA low) is regular process and elimination — to keep eating fiber containing foods that digest easily and will keep the bowl movements going and digestion going and keep the elimination process regular throughout the day. Keeping fiber containing easy to digest foods such as fruit moving through the digestive system throughout the day will keep the elimination process high so that endotoxin is continually being moved out and not stagnating and growing

I think the best way to optimize digestion and elimination is to eat close to zero fiber. My digestion has been perfect since cutting out all fiber (also the raw carrot). I can even eat lots of wheat and maintain good digestion, but once I eat too much fiber, I will get constipated. I'll quote my favorite study ever again:

World J Gastroenterol. 2012 Sep 7; 18(33): 4593–4596.
Published online 2012 Sep 7. doi: 10.3748/wjg.v18.i33.4593
Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation and its associated symptoms
Kok-Sun Ho, Charmaine You Mei Tan, Muhd Ashik Mohd Daud, and Francis Seow-Choen

AIM: To investigate the effect of reducing dietary fiber on patients with idiopathic constipation.

METHODS: Sixty-three cases of idiopathic constipation presenting between May 2008 and May 2010 were enrolled into the study after colonoscopy excluded an organic cause of the constipation. Patients with previous colon surgery or a medical cause of their constipation were excluded. All patients were given an explanation on the role of fiber in the gastrointestinal tract. They were then asked to go on a no fiber diet for 2 wk. Thereafter, they were asked to reduce the amount of dietary fiber intake to a level that they found acceptable. Dietary fiber intake, symptoms of constipation, difficulty in evacuation of stools, anal bleeding, abdominal bloating or abdominal pain were recorded at 1 and 6 mo.

RESULTS: The median age of the patients (16 male, 47 female) was 47 years (range, 20-80 years). At 6 mo, 41 patients remained on a no fiber diet, 16 on a reduced fiber diet, and 6 resumed their high fiber diet for religious or personal reasons. Patients who stopped or reduced dietary fiber had significant improvement in their symptoms while those who continued on a high fiber diet had no change. Of those who stopped fiber completely, the bowel frequency increased from one motion in 3.75 d (± 1.59 d) to one motion in 1.0 d (± 0.0 d) (P < 0.001); those with reduced fiber intake had increased bowel frequency from a mean of one motion per 4.19 d (± 2.09 d) to one motion per 1.9 d (± 1.21 d) on a reduced fiber diet (P < 0.001); those who remained on a high fiber diet continued to have a mean of one motion per 6.83 d (± 1.03 d) before and after consultation. For no fiber, reduced fiber and high fiber groups, respectively, symptoms of bloating were present in 0%, 31.3% and 100% (P < 0.001) and straining to pass stools occurred in 0%, 43.8% and 100% (P < 0.001).

CONCLUSION: Idiopathic constipation and its associated symptoms can be effectively reduced by stopping or even lowering the intake of dietary fiber.

"This study has confirmed that the previous strongly-held belief that the application of dietary fiber to help con stipation is but a myth. Our study shows a very strong correlation between improving constipation and its associated symptoms after stopping dietary fiber intake."

"Dietary fiber, therefore, cannot act as solid boluses for the initiation of peristalsis. In fact, dietary fiber had been shown to retard peristalsis and hold up gaseous expulsion in human experiments [22] .Dietary fiber is also associated with increased bloated ness and abdominal discomfort [22] . Insoluble fiber was re ported to worsen the clinical outcome of abdominal pain and constipation [18-20]"

 

[oldfriend]

I think the best way to optimize digestion and elimination is to eat close to zero fiber. My digestion has been perfect since cutting out all fiber (also the raw carrot). I can even eat lots of wheat and maintain good digestion, but once I eat too much fiber, I will get constipated. I'll quote my favorite study ever again:

World J Gastroenterol. 2012 Sep 7; 18(33): 4593–4596.
Published online 2012 Sep 7. doi: 10.3748/wjg.v18.i33.4593
Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation and its associated symptoms
Kok-Sun Ho, Charmaine You Mei Tan, Muhd Ashik Mohd Daud, and Francis Seow-Choen

For me, this debate is not a matter of plants vs. dairy/meat with the goal being a decisive conclusion. I don't think there is a 'best way to optimize digestion' that applies to everyone. Peat has recommended greens and potatoes for people who can't tolerate dairy. I think, like everything discussed in these forums, context is critical. The study you posted says "Patients with previous colon surgery or a medical cause of their constipation were excluded." Having a medical cause of constipation myself I am skeptical of this study. What constitutes a medical cause of constipation? If IBS qualifies, that study doesn't apply to 25-45 million people in the US. Factor in IBD & cancer, and that number is even higher.

 

[Kartoffel]

The study you posted says "Patients with previous colon surgery or a medical cause of their constipation were excluded." Having a medical cause of constipation myself I am skeptical of this study. What constitutes a medical cause of constipation? If IBS qualifies, that study doesn't apply to 25-45 million people in the US. Factor in IBD & cancer, and that number is even higher.

"For the purpose of this study, we did not distinguish between slow colonic transit type or obstructed defecation type of constipation nor did we attempt to classify the patients according to irritable bowel syndrome subtypes."

I lived with IBS, recurring hemorrhages, and nutrient deficiencies for about 3 years, and reducing fiber to zero and then to a minimum finally solved my problems. Maybe I am a little biased because of my own experience, but I have seen the same fiber-constipation patterns in many other people. Also, after studying most of the literature I have become more and more convinced that high fiber benefits were a clever marketing trick some time after the war to enable cereal companies to sell their leftover junk as health foods.

 

[Wagner83]

"For the purpose of this study, we did not distinguish between slow colonic transit type or obstructed defecation type of constipation nor did we attempt to classify the patients according to irritable bowel syndrome subtypes."

I lived with IBS, recurring hemorrhages, and nutrient deficiencies for about 3 years, and reducing fiber to zero and then to a minimum finally solved my problems. Maybe I am a little biased because of my own experience, but I have seen the same fiber-constipation patterns in many other people. Also, after studying most of the literature I have become more and more convinced that high fiber benefits were a clever marketing trick some time after the war to enable cereal companies to sell their leftover junk as health foods.

I personnally think fibers from fruits may be different, and among vegetables not all are created equal.

 

[Kartoffel]

I personnally think fibers from fruits may be different, and among vegetables not all are created equal.

Yea, I don't notice any adverse effects when eating ripe, sweet fruits like oranges, bananas, grapes, etc. Dates, though, are really bad for me, which is a shame because I really enjoy them. Potatoes in normal amounts are also fine. Kale is the absolute worst.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

And how does the BCM-7 culture renderings have no significance?

Peptides being digested by the very same enzymes detected in the human stomach doesn't have significance? That's quite a bold statement to say it has none. That's similar to saying amylase converting amylose and amylopectin in the mouth has no significance to amylase doing similar with starch in a lab because there is no actual mouth in the lab setting, etc.

Secondly, if it depends on having a healthy digestive system, then even by Peats own standards this would not apply because most people are hypothyroid to various degrees, which would mean they don't have a totally healthy digestive system to begin with (since digestion is sluggish with hypothyroidism, especially with regards to dairy) to 'properly' digest casein proteins.




Not completely true, because no one consumes each type of protein in the same proportions. For example, most 'Peaterians' will easily consume far more milk in a given day than meat. 8-16 cups or more of milk per day is a very common thing here. That is far more methionine than the amount of meat many will eat. Even worse, many if not most will consume large amounts of milk in conjunction to a serving or more (and eggs) of meat per day or every other day, resulting in a much higher methionine intake. I believe it was Peat himself that has said he consumes half a gallon to a gallon of milk per day. Add in eggs or meat to that and you have a very high methionine intake.





From what I have seen with regards to the well established literature on methionine restriction, disease prevention, and longevity, it is total methionine intake that seemed to have the largest effect, even in conjunction to other amino acids. I have yet to see any literature that gave evidence that the methionine ratio to other proteins was significant enough to downplay or prevent the overall recorded effects of high methionine intake in test subjects/studies that are observed in the methionine studies. The total methionine intake not mattering as long as it is of a specific ratio to other proteins appears to not matter much, from what available evidence I have seen. If you have sufficient evidence that the methionine ratio to other proteins in a specific or general amount is enough to combat the effects of restricted methionine intake over the long term, then please share. Otherwise, it would seem like just speculation to say that methionine content from high dairy intake wouldn't be enough to interfere with the longevity benefits of methionine restiction.

Also, there are studies that suggest skim milk has more estrogen and decreased androgen ceoncentration. For example:

Courant, Frédérique. "Determination of naturally occurring oestrogens and androgens in retail samples of milk and eggs." Food additives and contaminants (2007)

With a quadrupling of the estrogen∶androgen ratio, it may be that the androgen concentration may be too small to have any meaningful impact on the estrogen concentration.

Also, I don't think it's as simple as saying that because milk has some testosterone it will sufficiently combat the effects of estrogen. Things don't work that simply, particualry in most people who already produce more estrogen than they ideally should. A metabolism that is already slow due to hypothyroidism is already naturally slanted towards estrogen over testosterone, so it may be likely that the testosterone itself would not have the perceived desirable effects. Also, it appears that the estrogen content of eggs is highly variable.

Interesting.