"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

[yerrag]

This is a nice stream of posts, Amazoniac! I'm drowning in so much information. How'd you get to publish such long posts at such a rapid rate? These are all very helpful.

I apologize if this is off-topic but it's interesting to see that grapes and red beets contain tartaric acid and oxalic acid, respectively, both of which an non-metabolizable organic acids. I can't help but notice that they are also good fruits to eat on a fruit diet (of Dr. Morse) to improve kidney filtration. Any ideas on what mechanism is involved that makes these fruits effective in improving kidney filtration?

Is it possible that the tartaric and oxalic acids are binding with calcium scales/plaques on lymph vessel walls, thereby cleaning the "pipes" thus allowing lymph and wastes to flow through to blood vessels on the way to be filtered by the kidneys?

Although citrates are metabolized by the liver to CO2 and H2O, having a large intake of lemon juice would leave much citrate to be left intact through the liver, and allow citrates to bind calcium deposits as well as citrate works its way through blood and lymph. This is probably why intake of large amounts of lemons is helpful also in improving kidney filtration.

What do you think? @Jennifer @charlie

 

[Amazoniac]

This is a nice stream of posts, Amazoniac! I'm drowning in so much information. How'd you get to publish such long posts at such a rapid rate? These are all very helpful.

It was initially just one, but I haded to cut it because there's a limit to image upload in a single post.

Is it possible that the tartaric and oxalic acids are binding with calcium scales/plaques on lymph vessel walls, thereby cleaning the "pipes" thus allowing lymph and wastes to flow through to blood vessels on the way to be filtered by the kidneys?

A grape fast must turn your intestines into a winery. Fruits without peel for sure have strong antimicrobial properties, which will decrease the toxin burden and relieve the organs related to detoxification.

These acids themselves might play a rôle in the antimicrobial effects:

Tartrate is essentially found, in its natural L(+) form, in grapes. This anion is partly absorbed from the digestive tract; it has been shown that colonic bacteria metabolise the bulk of ingested tartrate in human subjects, and only 14 % of ingested tartrate appears unchanged in the urine (Chadwick et al. 1978).

- Evaluation of different kinds of organic acids and their antibacterial activity in Japanese Apricot fruits
- Surface decontamination of fruits and vegetables eaten raw: a review (I bet plenty of these are generated in the wine factory)
- An overview of nutritional and anti nutritional factors in green leafy vegetables

The microbial effects are systemic:
The Gut Microbiome as a Major Regulator of the Gut-Skin Axis

"In cases of disturbed intestinal barriers, intestinal bacteria as well as intestinal microbiota metabolites have been reported to gain access to the bloodstream, accumulate in the skin, and disrupt skin homeostasis (O’Neill et al., 2016). DNA of intestinal bacteria has been successfully isolated from the plasma of psoriatic patients (O’Neill et al., 2016)."​

--
Pharmacokinetic Profile of Oral Magnesium Hydroxide

Magnesium hydroxide seems promising. Even though it contain less magnesium per molecule than the oxide form (about 40% vs 60%), its industrial production is simpler: magnesium oxide is made from it from what I read. This higher-than-average magnesium content is great for the purpose of minimizing industrial contaminant exposure. Consider dimagnesium walate for example:

It has a relatively high magnesium content (20%) in comparison with other salts (hydrated MgCl2 is 12% magnesium; in citrate form is 16% if I'm not wrong). You need to get 2 g of it (or more for others) to obtain 400 mg of magnesium. With magnesium hydroxide you need only 1 g. Imagine for shocking purposes the amount of contaminant exposure reduction in a year from adopting this measure: 365 mcg vs 180 mcg for cadmium, which is brutal on kidneys.

Perhaps the contaminants in magnesium hydroxide are milder as well, and you can react it with food acids instead of leaving this step for the industry.

It has lower absorption when taken plain, having a laxative function and with a dangerous side effect of absorbing magnesium. In any case, you can react it with whatever you prefer to make it more absorbable.​

I might create a '3 g of magnesium a day without supplements' thread some day, Saturazione was certainly expecting it from me as soon as someone manifested interested in the potassium thread.

--
I don't know what to think of these yet:
- Creatine monohydrate supplement induced interstitial nephritis
- Protein and creatine supplements and misdiagnosis of kidney disease
- Is creatine safe for your kidneys?

 

[Jennifer]

Any ideas on what mechanism is involved that makes these fruits effective in improving kidney filtration?

Dr. Morse says the dark pigments/polyphenols/antioxidants are astringent and pull out lymphatic waste. That's why with fruits like grapes, he recommends the darkest ones.

@Amazoniac — Thank you for taking the time to put together all that info. Just this past week I made the sad (to me) decision to add bivalves and local pastured eggs back into my diet and found today's posts timely. What you posted in regards to animal protein pretty much lines up with what Ray has written about in his articles, particularly the ones on bone density. I also found the info on the Papuan tribes of New Giunea especially interesting. I've been thinking about them a lot, lately.

 

[yerrag]

Dr. Morse says the dark pigments/polyphenols/antioxidants are astringent and pull out lymphatic waste. That's why with fruits like grapes, he recommends the darkest ones.

That's very helpful. Thanks!

 

[Sheila]

Oh goodness Amazoniac, thank you so very much - I know realise onions ain't onions; not all onions are created equal; and one needs more than one onion a day to keep the Dr away.
Now to read it all, all over again.
Appreciate your thoughtfulness, time and thoroughness.
As ever,
Sheila

 

[Waremu]

It was initially just one, but I haded to cut it because there's a limit to image upload in a single post.

A grape fast must turn your intestines into a winery. Fruits without peel for sure have strong antimicrobial properties, which will decrease the toxin burden and relieve the organs related to detoxification.

These acids themselves might play a rôle in the antimicrobial effects:

- Evaluation of different kinds of organic acids and their antibacterial activity in Japanese Apricot fruits
- Surface decontamination of fruits and vegetables eaten raw: a review (I bet plenty of these are generated in the wine factory)
- An overview of nutritional and anti nutritional factors in green leafy vegetables

The microbial effects are systemic:
The Gut Microbiome as a Major Regulator of the Gut-Skin Axis

"In cases of disturbed intestinal barriers, intestinal bacteria as well as intestinal microbiota metabolites have been reported to gain access to the bloodstream, accumulate in the skin, and disrupt skin homeostasis (O’Neill et al., 2016). DNA of intestinal bacteria has been successfully isolated from the plasma of psoriatic patients (O’Neill et al., 2016)."​

--
Pharmacokinetic Profile of Oral Magnesium Hydroxide

Magnesium hydroxide seems promising. Even though it contain less magnesium per molecule than the oxide form (about 40% vs 60%), its industrial production is simpler: magnesium oxide is made from it from what I read. This higher-than-average magnesium content is great for the purpose of minimizing industrial contaminant exposure. Consider dimagnesium walate for example:

It has a relatively high magnesium content (20%) in comparison with other salts (hydrated MgCl2 is 12% magnesium; in citrate form is 16% if I'm not wrong). You need to get 2 g of it (or more for others) to obtain 400 mg of magnesium. With magnesium hydroxide you need only 1 g. Imagine for shocking purposes the amount of contaminant exposure reduction in a year from adopting this measure: 365 mcg vs 180 mcg for cadmium, which is brutal on kidneys.

Perhaps the contaminants in magnesium hydroxide are milder as well, and you can react it with food acids instead of leaving this step for the industry.

It has lower absorption when taken plain, having a laxative function and with a dangerous side effect of absorbing magnesium. In any case, you can react it with whatever you prefer to make it more absorbable.​

I might create a '3 g of magnesium a day without supplements' thread some day, Saturazione was certainly expecting it from me as soon as someone manifested interested in the potassium thread.

--
I don't know what to think of these yet:
- Creatine monohydrate supplement induced interstitial nephritis
- Protein and creatine supplements and misdiagnosis of kidney disease
- Is creatine safe for your kidneys?

I find it ironic that I saw those linked studies on creatine, at a time when I began supplementing creatine a couple months ago. I have been getting severe side effects or symptoms and I can only think it is due to creatine supplementation, since this wasn't happening or noticeable until I began supplementation.

But I looked up some of the symptoms of the kidney problems people who took creatine were having and I am getting some of them. This includes mainly spasms and muscle twitches. And severe muscle twitching too. I have never in my life experienced such twitching. It is so bad that I even feel it in my face and head. It feels like something is moving under my skin in my face and neck at times. Ringing ears too, severely. I even blacked out when I was brushing my teeth. I am stopping creatine tomorrow cold turkey. Thanks for sharing these.

 

[Nighteyes]

"A protein deficient diet would intensify the loss of muscle protein on acidogenic diets (section ‘The protein conundrum’). This suggest that what is required is not a protein-deficient diet but a balanced diet providing both high quality proteins with high intake of alkalies (vegetables and fruits, base supplements) so that the acid anions of the protein intake get neutralized [19]. There are studies that mention the benefit of acid load neutralized diets [96,97] which was associated with lower skeletal mass catabolism and improved protein turnover."

Thank you amazoniac. I love it when these studies end their complicated and detailed explanations by essentially saying: balance is key. It seems to always come down to that. Dont know why that concept is so hard to grasp for many of us. Why do we always seek the extremes? Maybe to get the sense that we are actively doing something about our current issues. Eating a balanced diet does not feel like actively doing something; although that is false!
Anyway, great read. The part about malate and citrate being metabolized into bicarbonate was something I had missed until now. Explains why gbolduev states that taking organic acids contributes to alkalosis.

 

[Amazoniac]

I also found the info on the Papuan tribes of New Giunea especially interesting. I've been thinking about them a lot, lately.

Acid Base Considerations in Stone-Age Farming Sweet Potato Eaters, Modern-Day Sweet Potato Eaters, and High-Protein Consumers

"In Papua New Guinea two contrasting communities exist: one coastal with a long interaction with external influences and cash-cropping and a highland community with a history of stone-age farming and less, more recent contacts (with other cultures) [11]. As reported in the sixties, the highland Papuans grow sweet potatoes and consume a low-protein vegetarian diet consisting predominantly of these tubers [6]. These ancient dietary habits persisted until the eighties, but at that time increased consumption of imported foods such as rice and canned fish began [12]. One metabolic characteristic of the aboriginal Papuan sweet potato eaters is an extremely high excretion of the OA hippuric acid [6]. Compared to people living in Europe, who excrete around 2 - 4 mmol of hippuric acid per day [6, 8], the Papuans excreted 31 mmol/d on average [6], which is almost the amount of total urinary OA excretion that would be expected for healthy Caucasians of comparably small body size, but on normal western diets [3, 7]. Thus, the findings of Oomen [6] in the Papuan highland populations strongly suggest that sweet potatoes present a relevant source of dietary OAs which are ingested as phenols and phenolic acids and are then excreted mainly as hippuric acid as part of the total urinary OA fraction."

"Phenols or phenolic acids are common in human diet and high concentrations can be found in numerous plant products for example in tea, coffee, cranberries, and blueberries [8, 13]. In the last years, phenolic constituents have attracted increasing attention, since they did not only show significant antioxidant activities [13], but also anticancer effects in different in vitro test systems [14]. Additionally, a cardiovascular disease-preventive potential of dietary phenols is under discussion [8]. Phenolic and benzoic acids of fruits, vegetables and other sources are known to be (i) metabolically inactivated and detoxified after absorption from the gut and (ii) excreted at least partly as hippuric acid. Recent food chemistry research has shown that sweet potatoes and their leaves contain considerable, but varying amounts of various phenolic acids, of which – depending on the cultivars – cinnamic and chlorogenic (3-caffeoylquinic) acids play a major quantitative role [14, 15]. As demonstrated in a dietary controlled crossover study in which separate phenols were administered for 1 week to healthy subjects and subjects without colon, around half of the ingested chlorogenic acid was metabolized to hippuric acid and then renally excreted in normal subjects with intact colon [8]. Accordingly, increases in both hippuric acid and total OA excretions should generally be expected to occur if the dietary intakes of fruit and vegetable products with relevant phenol contents rise."

"For the consumption of both black and green tea, significant increases in hippuric acid have been recently reported. These increases were in the order of magnitude of 2 mmol/d per 12 cups/d for both kinds of tea [16]."

"Hundreds of different OAs are endogenously produced and finally excreted in urine each day. Table 1 presents an overview of relevant metabolic sources and gives examples of corresponding OAs that can be measured in urine samples. These OAs require buffering in systemic circulation and in urine. However, of the huge amounts actually produced in metabolism, only a relatively small portion which is not combusted, i.e., not oxidized to carbon dioxide and water, sustainably influences acid base status. These noncombusted organic acid anions are renally excreted and they can burden acid base balance with a reduction in buffer capacity since their renal elimination requires a corresponding cation excretion which implies losses in alkali equivalents too."

"As is discernible in Table 1, among those OAs that potentially contribute to a reduction of the renal buffer capacity, are numerous which originate from diet-dependent metabolic processes. Accordingly, OAs from carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism may vary with changes in the dietary intakes of these major nutrients. However, fat and carbohydrate intakes are closely related to energy production and/or energy requirement which is less explicitly the case for protein intake. Thus, if measured urinary total OA excretions are adjusted for energy requirement, e.g., by using individual body surface area as a proxy variable, then especially protein intake variation may still explain an additional portion of total OAs’ variability. Actually, higher urinary OA excretion rates have been observed in bodybuilders on high protein diets compared to control subjects ingesting significantly less protein [9]. Also, prematures receiving formulas, which have a higher protein content than mothers milk, have shown elevated urinary total OA excretion rates [10]."

"Already in 1923 it was reported that ingestion of some fruits, i.e., prunes and cranberries, can decrease urine pH [20]. This elevation of dietary acidity has recently been reproduced for cranberry and in part for plum ingestion [21]. The authors found a significant fall in urine pH only after cranberry juice, but not after plum juice ingestion [21] which can be explained by a lower dietary PRAL (higher alkalizing potential) of plums compared to cranberries. Various phenolic acids have been identified in these and other fruits [22, 23] which are partly absorbed [8] and further metabolized to biochemically altered phenolic acids, e.g., hippuric acid. These data along with (i) the study results in the Papuan stone-age farming sweet potato eaters and (ii) our exemplary findings in modern-day sweet potato eaters (increase of 3 mEq of OA per meal of 345 g of sweet potatoes), confirm that certain fruits and vegetables (which are mostly alkalizing and yield a negative PRAL) can have substantial OA increasing effects. It is clear that particular plant foods with higher phenolic acid contents will be relevant in this respect. Data on urinary hippuric acid responses to black and green tea consumption have been recently published [16]."

"In conclusion, in addition to the PRAL-specific diet effects on NEAP [1-4], ingestion of particular plant foods and/or larger changes in consumption of protein may additionally add to the body’s total acid load via increases in OAs. Future research is required to identify those fruits and vegetables for which apart from the established NEAP=PRAL+OA model, an additional – quantitatively relevant – plant food-specific OA contribution exists. Also the extent to which increases in protein intake may further enhance the OA component needs to be determined more precisely."​

Is this related to the need to add table salt to white (but not sweet) potatoes to make them more palatable (balanced)?

I find it ironic that I saw those linked studies on creatine, at a time when I began supplementing creatine a couple months ago. I have been getting severe side effects or symptoms and I can only think it is due to creatine supplementation, since this wasn't happening or noticeable until I began supplementation.

But I looked up some of the symptoms of the kidney problems people who took creatine were having and I am getting some of them. This includes mainly spasms and muscle twitches. And severe muscle twitching too. I have never in my life experienced such twitching. It is so bad that I even feel it in my face and head. It feels like something is moving under my skin in my face and neck at times. Ringing ears too, severely. I even blacked out when I was brushing my teeth. I am stopping creatine tomorrow cold turkey. Thanks for sharing these.

Have you tried to take it with protein?

Thank you amazoniac. I love it when these studies end their complicated and detailed explanations by essentially saying: balance is key. It seems to always come down to that. Dont know why that concept is so hard to grasp for many of us. Why do we always seek the extremes? Maybe to get the sense that we are actively doing something about our current issues. Eating a balanced diet does not feel like actively doing something; although that is false!
Anyway, great read. The part about malate and citrate being metabolized into bicarbonate was something I had missed until now. Explains why gbolduev states that taking organic acids contributes to alkalosis.

It's clear to me what needs to be addressed:
- Potassium (salts)
- Sodium chloride

 

[Amazoniac]

- Pathogenesis And Immunity As Conveyed By Ethylene And Carbonyl Groups In the Cause and Cure of Cancer, Allergy, and Infection

"The diet should be selected to give adequate nutrition in dynamic factors but to avoid tannin, the terpenes of fruit skins and the acids that rob the colloids of their cations. These acids are mainly tartaric and oxalic."​

- The Basic Chemistry of Our Diet

"Oxalic acid may be regarded as a near end product of metabolism to be gotten rid of. However, it has certain good effect in high dilution. It helps maintain the coagulability of the blood, for example. But in larger amounts it tends to rob the body of calcium and lower the blood coagulability. Tartaric acid not being readily oxidized in the body likewise tends to carry off valuable salts into the urine. Wines from grapes, and grapes themselves, too often, contain too much tartaric acid for use in large quantities. For our patients it is best to use them sparingly. If further research was done, it may be discovered that in the ripe matured grape, other substances could be present that would aid in the oxidation of tartaric acid. But so far as our observations on wines are concerned, such substances do not appear to exist in detectable amounts. Too much grape juice and too much wine can damage the metabolism without any of the alcohol action. Moderation or the moderate use or avoidance of food materials as common sense dictates, is the lesson to be learned from the grape. You will remember that the Lord Jesus taught moderation or ultra moderation in this matter too. Victims of the total grape diet fads have been found to present serious injuries."​

- Clinical Demonstration of the Laws of Chemical Structure that Determine Immunity to Disease, and their Application in the Treatment of Patients

"The diet is preeminently vegetarian, one should avoid such decalcifying acids as oxalic, tartaric, and even citric, unless the latter is neutralized somewhat by precipitated chalk. This is because; in cases suffering from deficient oxidation, the burning of citric acid may be difficult, and it may take away the valuable cations from the living colloids and carry them off into the urine. This so-called alkalizing action is evidently a catastrophe."​

 

[Braveheart]

- The Basic Chemistry of Our Diet

"Oxalic acid may be regarded as a near end product of metabolism to be gotten rid of. However, it has certain good effect in high dilution. It helps maintain the coagulability of the blood, for example. But in larger amounts it tends to rob the body of calcium and lower the blood coagulability. Tartaric acid not being readily oxidized in the body likewise tends to carry off valuable salts into the urine. Wines from grapes, and grapes themselves, too often, contain too much tartaric acid for use in large quantities. For our patients it is best to use them sparingly. If further research was done, it may be discovered that in the ripe matured grape, other substances could be present that would aid in the oxidation of tartaric acid. But so far as our observations on wines are concerned, such substances do not appear to exist in detectable amounts. Too much grape juice and too much wine can damage the metabolism without any of the alcohol action. Moderation or the moderate use or avoidance of food materials as common sense dictates, is the lesson to be learned from the grape. You will remember that the Lord Jesus taught moderation or ultra moderation in this matter too. Victims of the total grape diet fads have been found to present serious injuries."​

- Clinical Demonstration of the Laws of Chemical Structure that Determine Immunity to Disease, and their Application in the Treatment of Patients

"The diet is preeminently vegetarian, one should avoid such decalcifying acids as oxalic, tartaric, and even citric, unless the latter is neutralized somewhat by precipitated chalk. This is because; in cases suffering from deficient oxidation, the burning of citric acid may be difficult, and it may take away the valuable cations from the living colloids and carry them off into the urine. This so-called alkalizing action is evidently a catastrophe."​

Interesting stuff but these sites can not be displayed....505 server error??

 

[yerrag]

I apologize if this is off-topic but it's interesting to see that grapes and red beets contain tartaric acid and oxalic acid, respectively, both of which an non-metabolizable organic acids. I can't help but notice that they are also good fruits to eat on a fruit diet (of Dr. Morse) to improve kidney filtration. Any ideas on what mechanism is involved that makes these fruits effective in improving kidney filtration?

Is it possible that the tartaric and oxalic acids are binding with calcium scales/plaques on lymph vessel walls, thereby cleaning the "pipes" thus allowing lymph and wastes to flow through to blood vessels on the way to be filtered by the kidneys?

Although citrates are metabolized by the liver to CO2 and H2O, having a large intake of lemon juice would leave much citrate to be left intact through the liver, and allow citrates to bind calcium deposits as well as citrate works its way through blood and lymph. This is probably why intake of large amounts of lemons is helpful also in improving kidney filtration.

- The Basic Chemistry of Our Diet

"Oxalic acid may be regarded as a near end product of metabolism to be gotten rid of. However, it has certain good effect in high dilution. It helps maintain the coagulability of the blood, for example. But in larger amounts it tends to rob the body of calcium and lower the blood coagulability. Tartaric acid not being readily oxidized in the body likewise tends to carry off valuable salts into the urine. Wines from grapes, and grapes themselves, too often, contain too much tartaric acid for use in large quantities. For our patients it is best to use them sparingly. If further research was done, it may be discovered that in the ripe matured grape, other substances could be present that would aid in the oxidation of tartaric acid. But so far as our observations on wines are concerned, such substances do not appear to exist in detectable amounts. Too much grape juice and too much wine can damage the metabolism without any of the alcohol action. Moderation or the moderate use or avoidance of food materials as common sense dictates, is the lesson to be learned from the grape. You will remember that the Lord Jesus taught moderation or ultra moderation in this matter too. Victims of the total grape diet fads have been found to present serious injuries."​

- Clinical Demonstration of the Laws of Chemical Structure that Determine Immunity to Disease, and their Application in the Treatment of Patients

"The diet is preeminently vegetarian, one should avoid such decalcifying acids as oxalic, tartaric, and even citric, unless the latter is neutralized somewhat by precipitated chalk. This is because; in cases suffering from deficient oxidation, the burning of citric acid may be difficult, and it may take away the valuable cations from the living colloids and carry them off into the urine. This so-called alkalizing action is evidently a catastrophe."​

So what actually are the sediments in urine that are said to be a sign of good kidney filtration? By fruit diet of all-grapes (high in tartaric acid) or all-lemon (high in citric acid), or heavy in red beets (high in oxalic acid), people are able to excrete 'wastes' in urine, as seen in the white sediments in urine left standing for 3 hours. Are they calcium tartrate, calcium citrate, or calcium oxalate? And if so, why aren't any of these salts turning into stones in the kidneys, or the bladder? Is it because the all-fruit diet increases the alkalinity of the body fluids, and this alkalinity keeps these stones from forming? Or is the alkaline diet causing these stones to dissolve, and then be excreted as urine? If so, why do they precipitate after the urine is left standing for a few hours? Is it because the urine turns more acidic over this short period, thereby making these salts precipitate? Or is it because of the urine turning cooler?

Or is it possible that eating plenty of these fruits cause plenty of serum/ecf calcium to be leached out in urine? If so, how can this be good?

Or are all these fruit acids merely descaling the calcium deposits in the walls of the urinary tract, the product of which is the sedimentation/precipitation in the urine?

 

[Amazoniac]

Interesting stuff but these sites can not be displayed....505 server error??

Classic. You can't search on Google either. I wonder if it's because of his skin color.
Just visit Home | William F. Koch Research Site > his publications, expand all and search for title.

So what actually are the sediments in urine that are said to be a sign of good kidney filtration? By fruit diet of all-grapes (high in tartaric acid) or all-lemon (high in citric acid), or heavy in red beets (high in oxalic acid), people are able to excrete 'wastes' in urine, as seen in the white sediments in urine left standing for 3 hours. Are they calcium tartrate, calcium citrate, or calcium oxalate? And if so, why aren't any of these salts turning into stones in the kidneys, or the bladder? Is it because the all-fruit diet increases the alkalinity of the body fluids, and this alkalinity keeps these stones from forming? Or is the alkaline diet causing these stones to dissolve, and then be excreted as urine? If so, why do they precipitate after the urine is left standing for a few hours? Is it because the urine turns more acidic over this short period, thereby making these salts precipitate? Or is it because of the urine turning cooler?

Or is it possible that eating plenty of these fruits cause plenty of serum/ecf calcium to be leached out in urine? If so, how can this be good?

Or are all these fruit acids merely descaling the calcium deposits in the walls of the urinary tract, the product of which is the sedimentation/precipitation in the urine?

With beetroots is odd because oxalate stones are one of the most common. But if it's not allowed to concentrate and is excreted in enough time, it must help eliminating minerals.

Make alkalinization responsible for an improvement contrasts with the idea that these foods are using acids for mineral excretion before they become a problem; but high or low urine p and H is associated with stone formation. However citrate retention is a sign of acidosis, so there might be a connection (read first links).
I guess precipitation after a while is normal, they're still not clumping.

- Urinary pH and stone formation
- Nutritional Management of Kidney Stones (Nephrolithiasis) (!)
- Inhibition of growth of urinary type calcium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate crystals by tartaric acid and tamarind

Spoiler: Unorganized Elements Which May Be found in Urinary Sediment

--
- Current Status of Bicarbonate in CKD

- Hyperkalemia: An adaptive response in chronic renal insufficiency

- Contrasting Effects of Various Potassium Salts on Renal Citrate Excretion
- Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective prophylaxis against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis

--
- Diuretic action of potassium salts
- The use of potassium in therapy
- The failure of organic potassium salts to repair diuretic-induced hypokalemia and alkalosis in chronic hypercapnia
- ‘Zur Lehre von der Wirkung der Salze’ (about the science of the effect of salts): Franz Hofmeister's historical papers
- Potassium in Biochemistry and Physiology (chapter 'The therapeutic use of potassium salts')

 

[yerrag]

Or are all these fruit acids merely descaling the calcium deposits in the walls of the urinary tract, the product of which is the sedimentation/precipitation in the urine?

- Nutritional Management of Kidney Stones (Nephrolithiasis)

My understanding of this article is that a urinary tartaric acid increases, calcium hydrogen phosphate dihydrogen crystals decrease, and allows these crystals to pass through the urinary tract.

This at least suggests that this is one way with which intake of fruits high in tartaric acid, such as grapes and tamarind (this is something I can buy locally in the tropics) causes urine to produce sediments. In this case, the sediments are coming from the urinary tract.

If the action of tartaric acid were confined to such an instance, would it be logical then to suppose that in children (who are likely not to have formed urinary crystals in their urinary tracts by virtue of having little history of crystal accumulation), a grape- or tamarind-rich diet would have little effect on causing urine to form sediments?

 

[Amazoniac]

My understanding of this article is that a urinary tartaric acid increases, calcium hydrogen phosphate dihydrogen crystals decrease, and allows these crystals to pass through the urinary tract.

This at least suggests that this is one way with which intake of fruits high in tartaric acid, such as grapes and tamarind (this is something I can buy locally in the tropics) causes urine to produce sediments. In this case, the sediments are coming from the urinary tract.

If the action of tartaric acid were confined to such an instance, would it be logical then to suppose that in children (who are likely not to have formed urinary crystals in their urinary tracts by virtue of having little history of crystal accumulation), a grape- or tamarind-rich diet would have little effect on causing urine to form sediments?

There are some states that predispose you to get certain types of stones. If the purpose is their dissolution with the help of acids, I guess is worth considering what kind of compounds are unlikely to form stones in your current state and boost their appearance there.

I don't think the action of acids above is limited to calcification spots.

--
Inosine - Wikipedia
"After ingestion, inosine produces uric acid that is suggested to be a natural antioxidant and a peroxynitrite scavenger with potential benefits to patients with multiple sclerosis (MS)."

 

[Wagner83]

Coconut Water: An Unexpected Source of Urinary Citrate. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Amazoniac]

I got the reply from Ray:
"Proteins don’t cause acidosis, but some proteins (such as meat, beans, and nuts) are associated with a large amount of phosphate, and when phosphate isn’t balanced by enough calcium and magnesium it is very harmful. Some fruits contain essential amino acids, needed for making proteins, and also alpha-keto acids, which can turn into essential amino acids in the body. The high protein value of potatoes is the effect of their keto acids. A simple chemical survey of fruits could identify those that contain practical amounts of those precursors, and that could make it possible to get complete protein nutrition from fruit."

And I probably could have wrote that word for word just from studying him.

Chantelle,

It's not a matter of causation, it's a contribution. It was already commented that the issue is exaggerated and improving after protein restriction doesn't mean it's related to a diminished acid load, there are others factors that are more likely to explain the betterance.

- Low-protein diets in chronic kidney disease: are we finally reaching a consensus?

"What is the current biological and clinical evidence for beneficial effects of a low-protein intake in patients with CKD? There are at least three important issues. Firstly, it has been known for many decades, that the metabolism of protein generates waste products that accumulate in the body even in patients with early stages of CKD. For example, it was recently uncovered that P-cresyl-sulphate, a catabolic by-product of the amino acid, tyrosine, is at least in part responsible for the well-known insulin resistance that occurs in many patients even in early stages of CKD [6]. Secondly, increasing protein in the diet substantially increases the intake of phosphates, salt and the generation of acid. Each of these ions contribute to the uraemic syndrome: phosphate retention leads to hyperparathyroidism, dietary salt raises blood pressure and acid generation causes loss of muscle mass and bone and may even aggravate progression of CKD. For example, the ratio of dietary phosphorus to protein is ∼1/0.013, so 100 g dietary protein contains 1300 mg phosphorus. This leads to a series of complicated, physiopathological cascades such as a rise in fibroblast-growth factor-23. The latter is reportedly a cardiac toxin [7]. Third, it has been reported that increases in dietary protein or in the salt content of the diet eliminate the beneficial effects of ACEi on the progression of CKD [8, 9].

What should be done about dietary protein? What level of dietary protein is nutritionally safe? These questions have been addressed in explorative studies of healthy adults and CKD patients. In both cases, the evidence indicates that an intake of 0.6 g protein/kg ideal body weight/day is sufficient to maintain body composition in most normal adults or patients with CKD, provided that proteins in the diet are of high biological value (e.g. 50% from animal source in order to include sufficient essential amino acids to support synthesis of proteins in the body) [10]. This amount of dietary protein can be reduced further to 0.3 g protein/kg ideal body weight/day if a ketoanalog supplement is added to dietary proteins as long as the amounts of essential aminoacid skeletons are sufficient to synthesize body proteins [11, 12]. Obviously, the supplemented diets will reduce nitrogen intake but an adequate intake of essential amino acids will be achieved by transamination of ketoanalogs. It is important to underline that limiting the intake of animal proteins does prompt a superior nutritional profile because there will also be a reduced intake of phosphates and salt plus precursors of metabolic acidosis; there can also be a more beneficial intake of lipids [13, 14]."​

- Metabolic Acidosis Treatment as Part of a Strategy to Curb Inflammation

"It should be emphasized that the metabolic acidosis is common in critically ill patients and its presence can have a detrimental effect on clinical outcome. The administration of base, a common therapeutic maneuver, does not appreciably improve clinical outcome, even when acidosis is improved [9]. Is[n't] it better to consider “body acid-base imbalance” than “blood acid-base imbalance”?"​

In the majority of articles on the subject you'll find them repeating something along the lines of 'don't just manage, address the cause'.

 

[Amazoniac]

Even though protein contribute to the acid load, it's as simple as eating enough food potassium and magnesium to negate this effect, the addition of calcium should indeed balance phosphate in aspects that are beyond acid-base balance, which is why above they've separated them.

Another perspective in terms of inorganic components: protein-rich foods add sulfate, phosphate and chloride (added salt); and all you have to do is increase the others: potassium, magnesium and calcium, with sodium already increasing with chloride.


Some pages ago there was a concern with bicarbonate salts increasing risks of infections for increasing the pH of the stomach, but it should not be an issue as Raj and Wagner have taught us.

The resting p and H of the stomach lies on average around 2 and rarely more than 3. After a heavy meal it can go from 2 to almost 7 as a normal consequence, taking a few hours to return to baseline. So having the stomach stuffed with dense meals and shove down a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate on top of it doesn't sound like a good idea.

If I'm not wrong, it takes 1/4 of a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate to elevate it two units. A liquid meal should not get in the way of stomach acid's interaction with the content in spite of diluting it for a moment, so it should quickly react and take much less to reacidify. This means that moderate amounts of liquid and sodium bicarbonate should not be worrying.

A lot of people consume magnesium bicarbonate water without even thinking about this. It enters the stomach, reacts fast with HCl and is adsorbed as magnesium chloride without issues.

150 ml of magnesium bicarbonate water contains about 1 g of bicarbonate and 200 mg of magnesium.
For sodium bicarbonate, this is close to what 1/3 of a teaspoon (1/3 = 1.6 g) provides: about 1.2 g of bicarbonate and 400 mg of sodium.

Therefore it shouldn't be concerning. It might be possible to take further measures but this time just to ease the conscience, like taking in sips so that the body has the chance of reacidify the content without causing a sharp elevation (speaking in a relative way), but it seems unnecessary.

By the way, orange juice with a bicarbonate salt is a monstrous alkalinization, just think about it (Jovi, 2002).


@Jennifer - Hi! Does this interest you?

 

[yerrag]

If I'm not wrong, it takes 1/4 of a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate to elevate it two units.

2 units as in 2 pH units? In the stomach?

I've taken sodium bicarbonate (1g) in meals and I've never noticed any effect. But because of all the warnings I read, I just take baking soda outside meals, to be safe.

But maybe it's because the stomach can rapidly produce HCl as it has enough stores of carbonic acid and sodium chloride :

H2CO3 + NaCl = HCl + NaHCO3

In this case, HCl is released to the stomach while NaHCO3 goes to the blood, where it's to be used later by the pancreas to release HCO3- at the small intestine to increase the pH of the contents coming from the stomach.

But the responsiveness of the stomach to produce HCl varies from one person to another, and so it may be safer to just not take baking soda during a meal.

 

[yerrag]

A lot of people consume magnesium bicarbonate water without even thinking about this. It enters the stomach, reacts fast with HCl and is adsorbed as magnesium chloride without issues.

Is this how the mag bicarbonate ends up as? As magnesium chloride? Since we've established from Remer that magnesium chloride intake creates an acid load on the body, how would taking mag bicarbonate be different in its effect? From my experience, taking mag bicarbonate daily not not create a chronically acidic condition as much as taking magnesium chloride.

Perhaps the magnesium chloride coming from the mag bicarbonate reacting with HCl is absorbed by the stomach lumen, instead of being absorbed at the intestinal lining, and that may make the difference?

 

[Amazoniac]

2 units as in 2 pH units? In the stomach?

I've taken sodium bicarbonate (1g) in meals and I've never noticed any effect. But because of all the warnings I read, I just take baking soda outside meals, to be safe.

But maybe it's because the stomach can rapidly produce HCl as it has enough stores of carbonic acid and sodium chloride :

H2CO3 + NaCl = HCl + NaHCO3

In this case, HCl is released to the stomach while NaHCO3 goes to the blood, where it's to be used later by the pancreas to release HCO3- at the small intestine to increase the pH of the contents coming from the stomach.

But the responsiveness of the stomach to produce HCl varies from one person to another, and so it may be safer to just not take baking soda during a meal.

Yes, p and H of the stomach.

It seems safe to me. The reason is that there can be a drastic rise in pH in response to a heavier meal and it takes a good while to return to the original acidity, the process is normal; therefore taking moderate amounts of sodium bicarbonate and liquid must not be risky.

There should be no problem in making it more concentrated by reducing the liquid as long as it still tastes great.

Potassium bicarbonate taken with liquids (contrary to heavy meals) is a little riskier because the delivery can be abrupt and the heart will adsorb the punch.

Is this how the mag bicarbonate ends up as? As magnesium chloride? Since we've established from Remer that magnesium chloride intake creates an acid load on the body, how would taking mag bicarbonate be different in its effect? From my experience, taking mag bicarbonate daily not not create a chronically acidic condition as much as taking magnesium chloride.

Perhaps the magnesium chloride coming from the mag bicarbonate reacting with HCl is absorbed by the stomach lumen, instead of being absorbed at the intestinal lining, and that may make the difference?

There's no extra chloride being added to the body, it just recirculates. Magnesium chloride absorption is good, so it's possible for us to stick to burtlan's work, with the advantage of avoiding that additional burden and getting more bicarbonate instead. It's a bi-winning.

As the two pimps mentioned above pointed out, bicarbonates react with stomach acid immediately when they're allowed to, and this contrasts with the carbonate and hydroxide forms. I think a portion of them escapes unreacted and have a laxative action, otherwise if you matched for magnesium content, they shouldn't differ in relation to the chloride form in terms of absorption. I don't know if they can be absorbed intact, probably not.

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- Hyperchloraemic Acidosis: Another Misnomer?