"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

[Sheila]

Good morning Jennifer,
Always a joy to read you and see your current avatar, never fails to make me smile.

Do you happen to know what the standard treatment was for scarlet fever, Sheila? My mum had it and was advised by a nurse to drink warm ginger ale and right after my grandmother gave it to her, her fever broke.

In regards to sulfa drugs, Dr. Morse has talked about them and how the body has a hard time eliminating the inorganic sulfur to the point that it creates a sticky lining in the intestines so that when sulfurous foods are eaten, they cause indigestion/gas. He mentioned Charles Goodyear's discovery of vulcanized rubber in relation to the advent of sulfa drugs, but that's all he said and my attempts at trying to find out more have been in vain.

Regarding scarlet fever: For the children of an outbreak in the 1930s that I knew about, that thereafter could not handle onions, I am not sure there was much treatment. Later of course they used antibiotics for this systemic Strep A infection. Could the warm ginger ale have reduced inflammation sufficient to cause improvement, after all, back then there was some ginger in it! Carbonation and alcohol content would also have sped uptake. Interesting to use that now for throat infections and see the result, thanks for the idea.

I am not quite sure what you mean wrt 'inorganic sulphur' in sulfa drugs, nor which of the sulfa drugs Dr Morse is referring to. As far as I understand the processes, inorganic sulphur compounds, such as metal sulphates and compounds oxidized in the body to inorganic sulphates are critical for a number of processes. Further, lack of sulphates (for detoxification) and other sulphur compounds can cause intolerance to a host of other compounds due to a reduction in appropriate metabolism and excretion that induce 'sticky poo', whereupon this is improved (as a function of detox improvement) by small amounts of inorganic sulphates. I could not find it herein, but do you have a link to the Dr Morse you are referring to please so I can read further?

Many thanks
Sheila

 

[Sheila]

PS to Jennifer.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that the more filtering I get, the less pain I have in my lumbar and where the worst of my compression fractures (thoracic) are. The pain was non-existent most of the time after eliminating the last of the animal protein and starch from my diet, but I was still getting the occasional burning near the injury if I was standing in one place too long or got overzealous with my ballet practice. With my lumbar, I'll have knots full of what my cousin, a massage therapist, told me were acids and I'll do a press and release technique and by the next morning when I pee, I'll have major sediment and no more knots or pain.

Thank you for posting this most interesting observation. It has been my suspicion for a long time that there is huge interplay between waste elimination systems, nerves and the lower spine in particular. Magnificent to hear of your improvement over the years.

Sheila

 

[yerrag]

I'm more like a student here.

Yeah, both you and I.

I don't agree with this. I agree with Ray

Do you have a link to Ray on this? He discussed on KMUD on Acidity vs. Alkalinity, but there was only passing mention on urine, and it didn't touch on its pH. I must have missed some of his on urine in other interviews or newsletters.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that the more filtering I get, the less pain I have in my lumbar and where the worst of my compression fractures (thoracic) are. The pain was non-existent most of the time after eliminating the last of the animal protein and starch from my diet, but I was still getting the occasional burning near the injury if I was standing in one place too long or got overzealous with my ballet practice. With my lumbar, I'll have knots full of what my cousin, a massage therapist, told me were acids and I'll do a press and release technique and by the next morning when I pee, I'll have major sediment and no more knots or pain.

Are you referring to lactic acid? There's a technique called neuromuscular therapy that uses massage to release lactic acid that have clumped up on muscles. I wonder if your message is similar to it.

 

[yerrag]

The primary sources of acidity in the diet are sulfur-containing amino acids, salt [Cl], and phosphoric acid in soft drinks (For a more complete discussion of the adverse effects of phosphates, see Lara Pizzorno’s article in IMCJ 13.6).3 You will likely immediately scoff that salt is neutral in pH and is not metabolized to anything that is acid—and you would be right. Nonetheless, research has clearly shown that—happily reversibly—NaCl accounts for 50% of the net acidity of the average American diet.

I'm taken aback by this. How do we reconcile this with Ray Peat's endorsement of salt?

I'm not arguing about the empirical evidence that has been presented, but I'm likely to question the basis of it - the "average American diet."

Perhaps there is something really wrong with the "average American diet" and not something wrong with salt?

It is very much like the case of healthy people experiencing lower blood pressure at higher altitude, but most people (the unhealthy ones, maybe) experiencing higher blood pressure at high altitude.

Or unhealthy people experiencing high blood sugar, and blaming sugar for their poor state? And then people buying the false premise and latching on to the more sick idea of going ketogenic? Even worse, they buy into the "sugar feeds cancer" meme.

 

[Jennifer]

Good morning Jennifer,
Always a joy to read you and see your current avatar, never fails to make me smile.

Oh, thank you very much, Sheila! I appreciate the kind words and I'm glad my former peanut self brings a smile to your face. :)



Regarding scarlet fever: For the children of an outbreak in the 1930s that I knew about, that thereafter could not handle onions, I am not sure there was much treatment. Later of course they used antibiotics for this systemic Strep A infection. Could the warm ginger ale have reduced inflammation sufficient to cause improvement, after all, back then there was some ginger in it! Carbonation and alcohol content would also have sped uptake. Interesting to use that now for throat infections and see the result, thanks for the idea.

You're welcome! I do think the ginger in the ginger ale likely helped to reduce inflammation, but I also wonder if it triggered the immune/lymphatic system by stimulating circulation, causing the fever to break? My mum said right after the fever broke, her whole body broke out in hives which sounds like a symptom of detox to me.

In regards to the inorganic sulphur and sulfa drugs that Dr. Morse is referring to, he has talked about it quite a few times in his YouTube videos, but I've watched hundreds of them and honestly can't remember which ones he mentioned it in. He talks about it briefly in his book here:

http://www.truthkeeperz.com/Robert_Morse_-_The_Detox_Miracle_Sourcebook_EBOK.pdf#460

I just want to note that where he mentions congestion from consuming sugar, he is likely referring to starch because he has made the distinction before in his videos and is obviously pro sugar when it comes to fruit/fructose since that's what he advocates. He believes fruit breaks up congestion.

In case you want to try finding where he talks about it in more depth, below is his YouTube channel. Just a warning: most are hour+ long videos since he answers viewers letters and teaches at the same time.

robertmorsend

 

[Jennifer]

Do you have a link to Ray on this? He discussed on KMUD on Acidity vs. Alkalinity, but there was only passing mention on urine, and it didn't touch on its pH. I must have missed some of his on urine in other interviews or newsletters.

I promise I haven't forgotten about you. :) I'm still trying to find the link. I'm certain he has talked about it because I have his quote saved in my notes, but no link to the source of it. If I can't find it, I'll have to ask my go to source for Ray quotes, Diane (HDD), if she can find it. She's really good at finding even the most obscure Ray quotes.

Are you referring to lactic acid? There's a technique called neuromuscular therapy that uses massage to release lactic acid that have clumped up on muscles. I wonder if your message is similar to it.

I had assumed it was lactic acid but after finding Dr. Morse, I now wonder if it's more than just that type of acid. I really don't know, though. I'll have to look into it further. But yeah, it does sound like neuromuscular therapy is similar to what I do. Neuromuscular therapy is certainly a far more sophisticated name than what I've been calling it. lol

 

[yerrag]

I promise I haven't forgotten about you. :) I'm still trying to find the link. I'm certain he has talked about it because I have his quote saved in my notes, but no link to the source of it. If I can't find it, I'll have to ask my go to source for Ray quotes, Diane (HDD), if she can find it. She's really good at finding even the most obscure Ray quotes.

Am I glad to hear back from you, Jennifer! I can see how you didn't take easily to the idea that was espoused in the linked article I was referring to. My naturopath also considered 6.8 urine pH to be ideal. It is identical to what Ray says about the pH of a healthy cell. I am re-reading and re-reading that article trying to see where the error in it lies. But it just makes wonderful sense to me. Could it be that he is right and Dr. Morse and all the rest got it wrong? If you could, can you read that article and see where he's off? So you don't have to backread to find it, here it is again:

The Bicarbonate-Deficiency-Syndrome (BDS): Professor Dr. med. Klaus F. Kopp

I had assumed it was lactic acid but after finding Dr. Morse, I now wonder if it's more than just that type of acid. I really don't know, though. I'll have to look into it further. But yeah, it does sound like neuromuscular therapy is similar to what I do. Neuromuscular therapy is certainly a far more sophisticated name than what I've been calling it. lol

I'm wondering why you have these acids accumulated. Was that in the past already or do you find yourself going back for maintenance massage? Oddly and thankfully enough, I had the neuromuscular therapy only once. For my state of being very hypertensive, I'm glad I'm not feeling the muscle aches yet that would be common at my age. Are you getting better by the day, muscle soreness-wise?

 

[Amazoniac]

I'm taken aback by this. How do we reconcile this with Ray Peat's endorsement of salt?

I'm not arguing about the empirical evidence that has been presented, but I'm likely to question the basis of it - the "average American diet."

Perhaps there is something really wrong with the "average American diet" and not something wrong with salt?

It is very much like the case of healthy people experiencing lower blood pressure at higher altitude, but most people (the unhealthy ones, maybe) experiencing higher blood pressure at high altitude.

Or unhealthy people experiencing high blood sugar, and blaming sugar for their poor state? And then people buying the false premise and latching on to the more sick idea of going ketogenic? Even worse, they buy into the "sugar feeds cancer" meme.

This is what I believe right now:

Since we have a more discernible craving for sodium, and table salt is easily available to everyone, perhaps (based on Ray's idea) there's a tendency to compensate for the lack of other nutrients through its consumption. At least some times, chloride might be taking a ride. Like it was mentioned, the problems don't show up right away and it's an unnecessary form of taxing the System owa time.

There might be negative consequences in constantly increasing the p and H of the stomach with bicarbonates, which is why (in my opinion) it's better and safer to balance through the other end: by having an abundance of bases in the diet, with an especial attention to potassium.

--
Animal proteids have plenty of sulfur-containing amino acids but also glutamine, I wonder if this is what helps to counteract the acidity because if you search for it, glutamine is converted to ammonium and bicarbonate of the ions, so it helps to compensate some of the loss from the metabolism of those amino acids.

There's a thread at the Hack of the Stasis about decalcification by @mattyb. It reminded me of Rayzord's following comment:
"Protein deficiency is an important cause of deranged calcium metabolism."

 

[Amazoniac]

Food Data Chart - Chlorine
It's mainly seafood and those with added salt.

 

[yerrag]

This is what I believe right now:



--
Animal proteids have plenty of sulfur-containing amino acids but also glutamine, I wonder if this is what helps to counteract the acidity because if you search for it, glutamine is converted to ammonium and bicarbonate of the ions, so it helps to compensate some of the loss from the metabolism of those amino acids.

There's a thread at the Hack of the Stasis about decalcification by @mattyb. It reminded me of Rayzord's following comment:
"Protein deficiency is an important cause of deranged calcium metabolism."

Makes sense. Having more foods that are rich in calcium, magnesium, and potassium. Just don't know why the special emphasis on potassium though.

Yes, you have a point on glutamates being used in the ammonia buffer system, but the pH buffer system relies little on proteins, just 1%:

The Bicarbonate-Deficiency-Syndrome (BDS): Professor Dr. med. Klaus F. Kopp

Four buffer-systems are present in the blood to maintain the constancy of the blood-pH-value. The Carbon-Dioxide (CO2) - Bicarbonate- (HCO3)- System with almost 75 % is the prevalent Buffer-System in the Blood. The most important natural buffer-substance in the blood is SODIUM- BICARBONATE (Na+HCO3-). Hemoglobin provides about 25 %, Proteins about 1 % and Phosphates with < 1 % constitute the total Buffer-Capacity of the blood.

Could it be that because the ammonia buffer system is just so limited, there are just not enough ammonium ions to accompany the chloride ions in being excreted out by urine? So, in a diet that has excessive salt (NaCl) intake, plenty of chloride remain in blood circulation, and this backlog stays, or even accumulates over time, such that this keeps increasing the acidity of blood. For a while, the pH buffering system will actively work to maintain blood pH within tolerable range, but it will be at the expense of blood CO2 content. As CO2 content is lowered, the bicarbonate pH buffering system becomes more restricted in influencing blood pH. A point will be reached when metabolic acidosis is reached. Before this point is reached and action is taken, the body is already sub-optimal and chronic stress conditions will have started, arising from the lack of tissue oxygenation.

 

[Jennifer]

Am I glad to hear back from you, Jennifer! I can see how you didn't take easily to the idea that was espoused in the linked article I was referring to. My naturopath also considered 6.8 urine pH to be ideal. It is identical to what Ray says about the pH of a healthy cell. I am re-reading and re-reading that article trying to see where the error in it lies. But it just makes wonderful sense to me. Could it be that he is right and Dr. Morse and all the rest got it wrong? If you could, can you read that article and see where he's off?

Hi yerrag!

We have a link! Knowing she is also familiar with Reams and has talked about Ray's view on the ideal UpH, I asked tara if she had a link for it and she kindly responded:

BingDing referred to this interview in the forum thread about Reams/RBTI:
To Your Health - April 2012
" ... I think the 24-hour urine should be pretty acidic (6.3–6.7 is optimum), from a good protein intake, but the saliva should be just a little under 7, reflecting a good carbon dioxide content. ..."

What's About PH? Acid-basic Balance, Sodium, Lactates Production

I'm going to read the article more thoroughly tonight but quickly skimming it, this stood out to me:

"Urine is the best available body-fluid reflecting the conditions within the body and above all, it is the physiological excretion fluid produced by the kidneys in order to eliminate the metabolic waste substances"

This is what Dr. Morse teaches and why I often mention checking for kidney filtration. There should be sediment (often falsely believed to be an infection, despite no infection being present) if the kidneys are filtering. That sediment is the metabolic waste/byproducts.

I'm wondering why you have these acids accumulated. Was that in the past already or do you find yourself going back for maintenance massage? Oddly and thankfully enough, I had the neuromuscular therapy only once. For my state of being very hypertensive, I'm glad I'm not feeling the muscle aches yet that would be common at my age. Are you getting better by the day, muscle soreness-wise?

Oh...okay, you're hypertensive. Hypertension runs in my family, as well as hypotesion which more often than not are caused by the same tissue weaknesses.

With both high and low blood pressure, the first tissues I look to are the kidneys and adrenals. How I understand it is hypertension is a symptom of inflamed kidneys (if your diastolic is high – diastolic reflects the health of the kidneys) and/or weak adrenals (systolic reflects the health of the adrenals). Potassium and sodium blood levels are another way to tell the health of the adrenals.

Amazoniac may have a better answer for you, but a reason I can think of for why the special emphasis on potassium is because the kidneys have an affinity for it. Dr. Morse say this and Reams did, also. In cases of weak kidneys, my RBTI practitioner recommended a mix of celery and pineapple juice for their high potassium content. The celery juice is also high in natural sodium and other alkaline minerals which are good for the adrenals, and since the adrenals are responsible for turning the kidneys off and on, it's good for the kidneys, too. :)

It's my current belief that acids accumulate in areas where our weaknesses our, deteriorating the tissue. My kidneys and lumbar are two such areas. Plus, because I have a kyphosis, my lumbar takes most of the burden and has to overcompensate for the rest of my spine which results in overexerting the muscles in that region, causing the knots. I assume they won't stop forming until my spine is back to normal, but I have greatly reduced their frequency just by my diet and a herbal kidney tincture. I do the press and release technique on myself throughout the day. I just hold my thumbs down on them for a minute or so and then slowly let up, releasing the acids and breaking up the knots. I'm very glad to hear you're not dealing with muscle aches. That's a good sign!

 

[Amazoniac]

Makes sense. Having more foods that are rich in calcium, magnesium, and potassium. Just don't know why the special emphasis on potassium though.

Yes, you have a point on glutamates being used in the ammonia buffer system, but the pH buffer system relies little on proteins, just 1%:

The Bicarbonate-Deficiency-Syndrome (BDS): Professor Dr. med. Klaus F. Kopp

Four buffer-systems are present in the blood to maintain the constancy of the blood-pH-value. The Carbon-Dioxide (CO2) - Bicarbonate- (HCO3)- System with almost 75 % is the prevalent Buffer-System in the Blood. The most important natural buffer-substance in the blood is SODIUM- BICARBONATE (Na+HCO3-). Hemoglobin provides about 25 %, Proteins about 1 % and Phosphates with < 1 % constitute the total Buffer-Capacity of the blood.

Could it be that because the ammonia buffer system is just so limited, there are just not enough ammonium ions to accompany the chloride ions in being excreted out by urine? So, in a diet that has excessive salt (NaCl) intake, plenty of chloride remain in blood circulation, and this backlog stays, or even accumulates over time, such that this keeps increasing the acidity of blood. For a while, the pH buffering system will actively work to maintain blood pH within tolerable range, but it will be at the expense of blood CO2 content. As CO2 content is lowered, the bicarbonate pH buffering system becomes more restricted in influencing blood pH. A point will be reached when metabolic acidosis is reached. Before this point is reached and action is taken, the body is already sub-optimal and chronic stress conditions will have started, arising from the lack of tissue oxygenation.

No, I was thinking in terms of protein alone and why increasing it would have a milder impact than an increase in table salt for example.
Regarding details, I have to learn more about it to comment. Ray recommends this guy and his approach to start learning:
acidbase.org

 

[Sheila]

Dear Ones,

A few observations fwiw.

Have a few people on guava juice which is high in vitamin C and potassium. All are enjoying the experience BUT if they are accidentally low in sodium, there is a craving for salted crisps and an increase in fluid retention prior. Thus I conclude that the potassium/sodium ratio remains important and that taste for salt kicks in reliably for some people if potassium is raised too quickly. I would not think that any of these people are particularly protein deficient, but some have significant health challenges and their general balance is easily upset. I think adding celery juice which is high in sodium and vitamin K would indeed be helpful here.*

And dear Jennifer, thank you for the links and book pdf. Re: [Dr Morse] "believes fruit breaks up congestion" I wonder if that is primarily the effect of the potassium compounds and fructose (to fuel the change) on lymphatics? In mostly days past, small amounts of potassium chloride (65mg) or potassium sulphate (33mg) were given regularly to reliably improve lymphatic flow. Not quite so easy to find what form or ratio these salt compounds are in fruit and veg alas (data for the ions only) but I wouldn't mind betting that both of these compounds are to be found in 'diuretic' vegetables like celery and asparagus. If anyone does have old data, would be ever so grateful - since I think in this case, these compounds are acting as compounds and not just the effect of separate ions per se. Why? Because the noticeable effect with say 'low dose' KCl is not the same as K2SO4 even at an equivalent dose which, if it were just a case of K+ acting singly - ie. just the potassium effect - it should. Ditto K2SO4 and Na2SO4 if it were just 'sulphate' associated effect. So there is something key about the inorganic combination - unless I am being dumb (and if so, please do enlighten me). I know that at this level the effect is very different from mass supplementation in the 1g+ range of potassium or sodium 'salts'. As ever the devil is in the detail and less may well be more.

Best to you all,
Sheila

*PS. Oh! I shall go to the bottom of the class. Neat explanations found for my para 1 here
How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

 

[Amazoniac]

Dear Ones,

A few observations fwiw.

Have a few people on guava juice which is high in vitamin C and potassium. All are enjoying the experience BUT if they are accidentally low in sodium, there is a craving for salted crisps and an increase in fluid retention prior. Thus I conclude that the potassium/sodium ratio remains important and that taste for salt kicks in reliably for some people if potassium is raised too quickly. I would not think that any of these people are particularly protein deficient, but some have significant health challenges and their general balance is easily upset. I think adding celery juice which is high in sodium and vitamin K would indeed be helpful here.*

And dear Jennifer, thank you for the links and book pdf. Re: [Dr Morse] "believes fruit breaks up congestion" I wonder if that is primarily the effect of the potassium compounds and fructose (to fuel the change) on lymphatics? In mostly days past, small amounts of potassium chloride (65mg) or potassium sulphate (33mg) were given regularly to reliably improve lymphatic flow. Not quite so easy to find what form or ratio these salt compounds are in fruit and veg alas (data for the ions only) but I wouldn't mind betting that both of these compounds are to be found in 'diuretic' vegetables like celery and asparagus. If anyone does have old data, would be ever so grateful - since I think in this case, these compounds are acting as compounds and not just the effect of separate ions per se. Why? Because the noticeable effect with say 'low dose' KCl is not the same as K2SO4 even at an equivalent dose which, if it were just a case of K+ acting singly - ie. just the potassium effect - it should. Ditto K2SO4 and Na2SO4 if it were just 'sulphate' associated effect. So there is something key about the inorganic combination - unless I am being dumb (and if so, please do enlighten me). I know that at this level the effect is very different from mass supplementation in the 1g+ range of potassium or sodium 'salts'. As ever the devil is in the detail and less may well be more.

Best to you all,
Sheila

*PS. Oh! I shall go to the bottom of the class. Neat explanations found for my para 1 here
How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

Spoiler: Contemplation of salvation

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't agree with this. I agree with Ray, Dr. Morse and Carey Reams (RBTI) that the urine should be slightly acidic. Looking at it from a Dr. Morse perspective, if urine is alkaline, the body is holding on to the acidic byproducts of metabolism and dumping alkaline minerals. I've been meaning to pull out my pH regent to see if my urine is down around 6.4-6.8 now that my kidneys are finally filtering – sediment (metabolic byproducts) in urine means the kidneys are filtering like they should be. The entire time I followed RBTI, I couldn't get my pH to come down. It was always 8+ and this really concerned my RBTI practitioner.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that the more filtering I get, the less pain I have in my lumbar and where the worst of my compression fractures (thoracic) are. The pain was non-existent most of the time after eliminating the last of the animal protein and starch from my diet, but I was still getting the occasional burning near the injury if I was standing in one place too long or got overzealous with my ballet practice. With my lumbar, I'll have knots full of what my cousin, a massage therapist, told me were acids and I'll do a press and release technique and by the next morning when I pee, I'll have major sediment and no more knots or pain.

I also agree with Jennifer. My urine would go way alkaline after coffee for instance. I didn't think it was a good sign. Goes alkaline after potatoes too. I'm going off nightshades, I think they are toxic.

 

[yerrag]

We have a link! Knowing she is also familiar with Reams and has talked about Ray's view on the ideal UpH, I asked tara if she had a link for it and she kindly responded:

BingDing referred to this interview in the forum thread about Reams/RBTI:
To Your Health - April 2012
" ... I think the 24-hour urine should be pretty acidic (6.3–6.7 is optimum), from a good protein intake, but the saliva should be just a little under 7, reflecting a good carbon dioxide content. ..."

What's About PH? Acid-basic Balance, Sodium, Lactates Production

I'm going to read the article more thoroughly tonight but quickly skimming it, this stood out to me:

"Urine is the best available body-fluid reflecting the conditions within the body and above all, it is the physiological excretion fluid produced by the kidneys in order to eliminate the metabolic waste substances"

This is what Dr. Morse teaches and why I often mention checking for kidney filtration. There should be sediment (often falsely believed to be an infection, despite no infection being present) if the kidneys are filtering. That sediment is the metabolic waste/byproducts.

Thanks for sharing the link of Lita Lee's interview with Ray Peat. It squares up to what my naturopathic doctor believes, but he is looking at pH 6.8 as optimal for urine (which is just like the ideal cell pH, as Ray has mentioned). It would make sense actually. Which is why I had to keep going back to Kopp's article to see where the inconsistency, or the error, lies.

On one hand, it makes sense what you said that the kidney has to discharge acid metabolites in urine, to keep blood alkaline. This makes the case for the argument that optimal urine pH should be acidic.

On the other hand, Kopp makes the argument that the kidney only excretes acid metabolites only if there is insufficient bicarbonates in the blood. If there is sufficient bicarbonates, the kidney will not need to excrete acid metabolites. If there is an excess of bicarbonates, the kidney will excrete bicarbonates. He reasons that an excess of bicarbonates is ideal because it provides a buffer for any onslaught of acid that may come from eating a heavy meal of protein. or other acid insults.

I don't know the mechanism on how bicarbonates are able to handle acid metabolites in order to neutralize them. But I leave open the probability that it isn't only the kidney at work, but also the liver.

I recently realized that my 5 months of therapeutic intakes of MgCl2 at a dosage of 4.8g per day has led to poorer health for me. I became susceptible to allergies to MSG and to pollen. And when it led to coughing, the phlegm was stuck in my bronchial passages for a month. It wasn't until I stopped my MgCl2 that I started to feel relief. I was also urinating a lot, which made me think my blood was acidic, and my lungs had to expel plenty of CO2 and in the process produce plenty of water in the blood that had to be urinated to maintain osmotic balance.

I felt that my kidney was doing a lot of extra work with all the urination I was doing. My lungs as well. Perhaps it also had something to do with my recent relapse into snoring. This was confirmed by my low venous CO2 (actually bicarbonate) results. This meant I had low CO2 arising from the high serum acidity from metabolites, this left little room for carbonic acid to account for serum acidity. Low carbonic acid, low bicarbonates, and low CO2 all come together in this case. With my body sensing low CO2, it had to restrict somehow my nassal passages in an attempt to retain CO2. But another part of my body is fighting this, as it knows my serum acidity cannot go any higher with higher CO2. It had to breathe out the CO2, through the mouth. Hence the snoring.

During this time, I also noticed a gradual lowering of my metabolism. And it makes sense now in hindsight. I had less CO2 in my blood, and this is causing less oxygenation of my tissues. Hence, lower metabolism.

There's concern that too much baking soda can lead to metabolic alkalosis, and that this condition would take days to be relieved because the kidney is slow in relieving this condition. I'm just beginning to doubt that it takes the kidney as long as 3 days to relieve this. I read from the Kopp article that metabolic acidosis conditions can be relieved by taking 6-10 grams of baking soda daily. And my fears are allayed by the article stating that the kidney can immediately relieve excess bicarbonates. This is in contradiction to the kidneys being slow to respond to excess bicarbonates. I wonder know if the 3 day figure is a matter of using an extreme case and treating it as a normal occurrence.

So now I'm embarking on my own experiment on myself. Yesterday, I took 3 grams of bicarbonate dissolved in water and took it throughout the day. Today I'm taking 4 grams of bicarbonate. I'm going to observe myself. It will be interesting to see where this leads.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks for sharing the link of Lita Lee's interview with Ray Peat. It squares up to what my naturopathic doctor believes, but he is looking at pH 6.8 as optimal for urine (which is just like the ideal cell pH, as Ray has mentioned). It would make sense actually. Which is why I had to keep going back to Kopp's article to see where the inconsistency, or the error, lies.

On one hand, it makes sense what you said that the kidney has to discharge acid metabolites in urine, to keep blood alkaline. This makes the case for the argument that optimal urine pH should be acidic.

On the other hand, Kopp makes the argument that the kidney only excretes acid metabolites only if there is insufficient bicarbonates in the blood. If there is sufficient bicarbonates, the kidney will not need to excrete acid metabolites. If there is an excess of bicarbonates, the kidney will excrete bicarbonates. He reasons that an excess of bicarbonates is ideal because it provides a buffer for any onslaught of acid that may come from eating a heavy meal of protein. or other acid insults.

I don't know the mechanism on how bicarbonates are able to handle acid metabolites in order to neutralize them. But I leave open the probability that it isn't only the kidney at work, but also the liver.

You're welcome, yerrag! :)

Right, because Kopp is only focusing on the blood. As you know, we have far more systems in our body than just blood, many of which have their own buffering systems in place to handle acids, like the kidneys. And they all affect each other like strands in a web.

Just for perspective – even though blood pH is hugely important, it is tightly regulated. And blood makes up only 20% of interstitial fluid, the fluid around all our cells, while the lymphatic system makes up 80%. If you think about how much fluid we're made of, that's pretty big! So urine pH, sediment, affects and reflects far more than just blood pH.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, just tell me to zip it if I am :), but I would caution against taking all these isolated salt minerals given your experience with them. Instead of baking soda, have you ever though about getting your mineral salts through whole foods? With whole foods, the minerals come balanced so your body can handle them better IME.

 

[yerrag]

Right, because Kopp is only focusing on the blood. As you know, we have far more systems in our body than just blood, many of which have their own buffering systems in place to handle acids, including the kidneys. And they all affect each other like strands in a web.

Just for perspective – even though blood pH is hugely important, it is tightly regulated. And blood makes up only 20% of interstitial fluid, the fluid around all our cells, while the lymphatic system makes up 80%. If you think about how much fluid we're made of, that's pretty big! So urine pH, sediment, affects and reflects far more than just blood pH.

You're absolutely right that blood only represents a portion of our bodily fluids. I didn't now the lymphatics take up much more. Yet the focus is a lot on blood, and I wonder why that is.

Still, it's blood that the liver and the kidneys work on, to detox, and to rebalance our internal pH. It's also blood that's used to transport nutrients and oxygen and carbon dioxide. Maybe because blood is so accessible, and because it's the liquid that we can draw and donate as well as accept donations from. Or maybe because blood gives us a better window into our body than the lymphatic fluid does.

If blood serves well enough as a window to our health, its significance to our analysis cannot be simply measured in terms of how small its volume is compared to other fluids.

Yes, blood pH is tightly regulated. But I hope this does not give us the license to overlook that the system of regulation involved a lot of trade-offs. The issue of optimization is still important. If I could have more CO2 in my blood and yet stay within the blood pH parameters, I could say I am better off than having less CO2 in my blood and be within the same blood pH parameters. More CO2 gives better tissue oxygenation, and more CO2 also comes with higher bicarbonates, which improve the pH buffering system, and gives the ability to sustain acid shocks to the system.

You're welcome, yerrag! :)

Right, because Kopp is only focusing on the blood. As you know, we have far more systems in our body than just blood, many of which have their own buffering systems in place to handle acids, like the kidneys. And they all affect each other like strands in a web.

Just for perspective – even though blood pH is hugely important, it is tightly regulated. And blood makes up only 20% of interstitial fluid, the fluid around all our cells, while the lymphatic system makes up 80%. If you think about how much fluid we're made of, that's pretty big! So urine pH, sediment, affects and reflects far more than just blood pH.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, just tell me to zip it if I am :), but I would caution against taking all these isolated salt minerals given your experience with them. Instead of baking soda, have you ever though about getting your mineral salts through whole foods? With whole foods, the minerals come balanced so your body can handle them better IME.

You are right, that is a lesson I've learned recently from learning it the hard way.

I am with you, and for whole foods all the way. I've been drinking freshly juiced fruit drinks for a while already, for both potassium and fructose. I eat a large portion of cooked green leaves for both magnesium and calcium. I also drink milk for calcium. But I also realize my calcium and magnesium intake isn't yet enough, and I would take in powdered eggshells, and I would still take magnesium supplements.

The baking soda I use now is really therapeutic in nature, for now at least. I'm not ruling out its use on a constant basis. I have to treat it with no bias, given how biased I have been in not considering it enough because I my attitudes towards its use have been formed more by fears than an understanding of it. Since I've not been able to get satisfactory answers on its use, I have to step forward and experiment on myself. The word "experiment" is not the right word, as it conjures images of me going to the ER for a reckless adventure on my part.

So far, with 3 grams yesterday, and 4 grams today, of baking soda, I'm not experiencing anything better or worse. It may take a while to find out. For perspective, baking soda counts as rather tame compared to the pharma drugs and steroids we have gotten used to discuss in this forum. We are biohackers in one degree or another, and as long as we proceed with caution and within the bounds reason and mindfulness, we have much to gain by sharing our experiences.

 

[Jennifer]

Whoops! I missed you, @Sheila.

Re: [Dr Morse] "believes fruit breaks up congestion" I wonder if that is primarily the effect of the potassium compounds and fructose (to fuel the change) on lymphatics?

First off, I don't thing you were being dumb at all. :)

I'm of the opinion that it's the result of all the alkaline minerals, not just potassium, and that yes, the fructose fuels the metabolic process. I think of bases as creating fluidity, while acids as creating aglomulation and rigidity. This is highly simplistic and metaphorical, but I think of bases as water and acids as stones. We of course don't want to be a bunch of puddles so acids are needed to help keep our structure, but I'm now trying to be more like water, more flexible, and less rigid, in not just my physical, if that makes sense?

Anyhow, I suppose the compounds are at least acting closer to a balanced whole food than straight up potassium, but I still believe that if I want to balance my body, I need to fuel it with balanced chemistry and I just feel more confident in leaving that up to nature than man to figure out. Only in the most dire situations do I think isolated/man-manipulated salts are a good strategy, but that's just me and I tend to go with more simplistic thinking now because it's the only thing that has made lasting improvements in me instead of just masking symptoms temporarily, only for me to end up worse off down the road. :/

 

[Jennifer]

it's blood that the liver and the kidneys work on, to detox, and to rebalance our internal pH. It's also blood that's used to transport nutrients and oxygen and carbon dioxide.

But what happens if these nutrients can't be transported because we are lymphaticlly congested, for example? Congestion that can be seen through lack of sediment in urine, among other things. If the bowel walls, again, made up of a bunch of fluid surrounding cells, is congested, we get malabsorption because these nutrients can't be transported effectively.

I think of blood as the kitchen and the lymphatic system as the sewer system, with the lymph nodes acting as the septic tanks. When the sewer system backs up, it's not going to matter how much food is in the kitchen so it's not as simple as targeting the blood and everything will correct itself, not that that is what you are implying. I'm just trying to address what it feels like the article/Kopp is sort of doing.