THE PERILS OF HIIT, AND IF?

[DollyDagger]

Hi there, ive been trying RP w.o.e for about a month and a half now..just wanted to share a little bit of why and how i ended up here.
im not very familiar with posting in forums so please excuse any mistakes i might make including dangling participles,typos,lack of editing.. etc etc :)

first off im a female age-45 Peri-menopausal i guess..
past decade(s) of dieting included restricting calories, carbs, sugar, bread, starch.. the usual suspects.
managed to lose some weight (30lbs) and keep it off but have been gaining and losing these same 10-15 lbs over and over again.
Needless to say its gotten more and more difficult to lose weight the older ive gotten.


The following protocols may have been the perfect storm for putting me over the edge into hypo territory or exasperating already existing issues.

For the past year or so i had been following a P.H.D w.o.e as well as doing breathless HIIT type exercising 2-3 times a week, and I.F.( sometimes for up to 16 hours and at least 14 hours on a daily basis) Now i dunno if it was any one of those components in particular or the combination of them but doing these things definitely became detreimental to my health and well being. Also should mention that i was supplementing with melatonin for sleep issues that ive ALWAYS had.

After about a year of doing this i took stock and had to finally admit that i was looking and feeling crappier than ever. I never found fasting difficult really so i didnt fathom it could have been stressing my system so much. Same with HIIT. But when i looked in the mirror one day i realized my wrinkles more pronounced, skin looking generally worse, acne breakouts that kept reappearing in same areas, and body composition fattier than ever. Granted having been unemployed and quite sedentary other than when working out certainly hasnt helped but all the while I tracked my calories and rarely ever went above 1300-1400 calories but wasnt able to lose any weight and in fact probably gained some.
Ive also fallen deeper into a listless, lethargic depressive state this past year.
is it my thyroid ? is it approaching menopause...
is it estrogen..
or is it ALL OF THE ABOVE- they don't do extensive hormone panels and such here in Canada unless you go to a naturopath which i definitely cant afford so i cant get any test of that nature.

Anyways I had come across Ray Peats name on various paleo blogs and such but never looked into it much until about a couple month ago when i started taking my temperature. My temps were/are consistenly lower than 36.5. My waking temp is 36 if im lucky but often times its 35.9 or lower. Ive already seen an improvement in this regard ...like today i hit 37! (im ovulating though..lol )

A major problem ive always had is with my circadian cycle. Even when im working i still have delayed sleep. It has always been extremely difficult for me to quiet my mind and fall asleep. As per RP ive stopped melatonin.
At night is when i feel most berserker... Mind racing,inundated with memories, thoughts, feelings, total barrage of noise in my mind.. sometimes heart starts racing too as the hours pass and im still tossing and turning. Ive been trying milk with sugar and gelatin..but hasnt helped so far. Cant seem to break this cycle. I should probably stay up till the following night and see if i can shift back to normal sleep cycle. As of now im falling asleep between 4am-6am .. up at 12pm-2pm.

IMPROVEMENTS I NOTICED ALREADY in last month and a half..
temps have been moving up slightly.. i notice my highest temperatures are usually late at night.. after midnight its highest..thats not right is it..?
my severe knee osteoarthritis is feeling a little better less inflamed a little more mobility
wrinkles looking less deep and etched..this improvement happened nearly immediately when i stopped I.F.
still working on figuring out these acne breakouts that keep reappearing..



Peat strategies implemented so far
#1- DONT FAST! ..eat smaller portions more often. have breakfast!

{my staples now are dry curd cottage cheese, milk (homogenized and pasteurized unfortunately all thats available to me-canada) coffee, oxtail broths and meat, liver, shrimp, scallops, fruits such as mangos, tangerines, occasionally bananas and pineapple, orange juice etc.

#2-LOWER STARCH for now till i lose weight-limit potatoes and rice-no bread

#3 SUPPLEMENTS- niacinamede, aspirin (every other day or so 325mg) pregnenolone-just started it last week. Havent noticed much yet.
progesterone should be arriving soon so ill try that as well.

#4 NO HIIT..bike rides and walks instead of HIIT...still doing some strenth training though.

#5 taking some red palm oil in small amounts every few days

#6 limiting any PUFAS i was previously consuming..sadly no more avocados and very little olive oil.
#7 limit fats

Anyways sorry for the long post i had meant it to be somewhat succinct..so much for that idea..lol
hope it made some sense if not dollars :)

I hope i can get out of this depressive state, lose some weight, find some motivation and will to get on with my life,
and live a little more rather than just existing.

Regenerating my knee cartilage would be truly miraculous but i wont hold out for that to happen any time soon.



thanks for reading
peace
D

 

[Blossom]

Welcome DollyDagger! I'm happy you discovered Peat's work and found the forum.

 

[tara]

After about a year of doing this i took stock and had to finally admit that i was looking and feeling crappier than ever. I never found fasting difficult really so i didnt fathom it could have been stressing my system so much. Same with HIIT. But when i looked in the mirror one day i realized my wrinkles more pronounced, skin looking generally worse, acne breakouts that kept reappearing in same areas, and body composition fattier than ever. Granted having been unemployed and quite sedentary other than when working out certainly hasnt helped but all the while I tracked my calories and rarely ever went above 1300-1400 calories but wasnt able to lose any weight and in fact probably gained some.
Ive also fallen deeper into a listless, lethargic depressive state this past year.
is it my thyroid ? is it approaching menopause...
is it estrogen..
or is it ALL OF THE ABOVE-
...

I hope i can get out of this depressive state, lose some weight, find some motivation and will to get on with my life,
and live a little more rather than just existing.

Hi Dolly, welcome.

I'm just going to pick out one aspect I can see here - others may have something to say about other aspects.

My understanding is that 1300-1400 calories is nowhere near enough for any adult to maintain let alone restore a healthy metabolism. If you are still eating this low, you might want to consider increasing by about 1000 calories (you're the 4th person I've said this too in the last fortnight :) ). When you don't supply your body with enough fuel, it starts to sacrifice structure and function in the present to survive the famine. It reduces thyroid hormones - base metabolism - so you won't catabolise your body too fast. It also prioritises fuel storage over maintaining and developing energy hungry muscles and other lean tissue. It can reduce progesterone production. It can make you feel like you have no energy. Depression is a normal consequence of starvation.

I think you will have to eat more if you want to restore your health. No guarantees about whether the end result will be more or less stored fat.

 

[DollyDagger]

Hi Blossom and tara..thnx for the warm welcome :)

@tara- thanks for making those points ..Your absolutely right i was pretty much starving. I'm not eating that little these days nor going to bed with a growling stomach like i used to.. that sucked! Calories have increased and they fluctuate day to day depending on how i feel/how much activity i've had. Im not letting myself go hungry at all. Calories aren't quite as high as your suggesting though. Im only 5 '2" so im not sure ill ever need 2400 calories? will I? I get minimum 80 grams of protein and maximum 40-50 grams fat. Carbs are anywhere between 180-240. I will try sifting through some previous posts about calorie intake and try to learn more. Maybe i gotta start eating more like Garfield :) but sadly lasagnas not on the menu lol

 

[Blossom]

We have a lot in common! I'm 44 and 5'2 also. The plan you listed is looks like you've already made some great healing choices. I love how Tara so lovingly encourages us to eat enough. She's a doll. I've been getting around 2000 calories per day just eating to appetite and not letting myself get hungry. I did the PHD woe and IF too if that's any consolation. I'm happy you have found a more gentle healing path through Peat's work. Sorry if the calories are not enough Tara I honestly do eat as much as I can.

 

[j.]

I was wondering if Tara lives in a very cold place where it's really important to eat a lot to maintain body temperature...

 

[DollyDagger]

@Blossom..ya we sure do have lots in common! Thankfully we ended up here and are on the right path to mending the damages done.
Do you average out at 2000 or your getting that many consistently day after day. Just curious if your intake fluctuates at all.

@tara- yikes your power of suggestion are near mystical ..lol jk..but wow i was in ravenous mood last night..Coinciding with my higher temps/ovulation i guess. I ate even MORE than the amounts you suggested...i think ive bumped up my average significantly!! We 'll see if there are any negative consequences tomorrow, but for now i feel fine. Maybe ill fall asleep easier.

@j. how many calories do you eat on average? i dont know if at this point i could consistently eat that many but its something to slowly work towards i think.

 

[tara]

I was wondering if Tara lives in a very cold place where it's really important to eat a lot to maintain body temperature...

I live in a temperate climate, frost in winter, housing typically has poor insulation and expensive heating. I think cold is one of the chronic stresses that has been hard on my system. It probably does require more food than a tropical location. Since I had children I have lived in a warmer house.

I don't think I eat a lot (though other people seem to think so). I am taller than average, so may need a little more than those of you who are closer to 5' than 6'. I don't count calories with any regularity or accuracy. My guess is that on a good day I eat between 2500 and 3000, but there are also days I eat less. Don't know where it averages out. Possibly I would benefit from making sure I always get at least this much, but when I'm not well it's hard to do, especially while minimising PUFAs and wheat.

This description is not from RP, but it seems to be consistent with what I've read of his. As far as I know, this source is credible: http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2011/9/ ... ories.html.

2500 is apparently what average, weight stable non-dieting women eat. 3000 if they are young women. More if pregnant or with young children or working/exercising hard. 500 and 1000 respectively more for men. Most calorie descriptions and prescriptions are based on people's self reports. But studies have shown that women on average report 25-30% less than they actually eat (unless they have a restrictive eating disorder, in which case they over-report). So it' seems 2500 is as reasonable an estimate as any of what it takes to run an adult woman's healthy metabolism - could vary a bit by individual, but not much less. And if we gain weight on this much, then that is another sign of thyroid function not being up to full speed. As so many on this forum have reported, and I gather there is lots of other supporting evidence, reduced metabolism is a normal consequence of starvation (self-imposed or otherwise).
An energy deficit will wear the body down. An energy surplus is required to restore it. Our bodies will decide how best to allocate the surplus, if we keep providing it. One of the first things it usually does is build up a bit of adipose insulation round the vital organs. For people who are severely depleted, bloating and swelling is common during early repair. If the fuel keeps coming reliably, it will eventually get on to rebuilding other organs and raising the metabolism. The sooner you replenish, the more fully you are likely to recover.

Sorry if the calories are not enough Tara I honestly do eat as much as I can.

Tee hee. Isn't this a nice conversation to be having, while all around women are berating themselves and each other for eating more than rabbit food.

J., I'm curious too, how much are you eating?

 

[Blossom]

@dolly,tara and all interested, I only know a round about figure on the calories from the cronometer tracking that I do to help monitor nutrition. I've been tending toward a more intuitive approach to eating since discovering Peat's work. I'm sure my metabolism is still recovering from a lifetime of assaults. I'm open to whatever the future brings with my metabolic recovery. I did go through years of force feeding with the inability to gain weight prior to Peat so I'm happy to now have reached a more stable state. I really enjoy the dialogue and insights on this topic!

 

[j.]

J., I'm curious too, how much are you eating?

At the moment I'm sort of a mess in that regard, acquired a taste for caffeine, can't satisfy it unless I drink 3 liters of coca cola (plus coffee and chocolate with milk), which leaves less room for other foods, so in one way or another I'm not satisfied. I ordered caffeine powder but didn't get it yet. I don't eat a lot, I think, but I'm not one who counts, and I live in a warm place.

 

[tara]

Hi J., Hope you can find a way to get more food in. If you are living on coke, you are probably missing out on lots of things. I can't be bothered counting rigorously either. If you are monitoring other nutrients, it might be worth doing a rough check on calories every once in a while too. If you are eating much less than 3000 calories, this could be part of your issue too.

 

[j.]

I'm not actually living on coke, that's what I would drink, and did occasionally, to consume as much caffeine as I wanted to, without a caffeine supplement.