The People With The World's Healthiest Hearts Eat A 72% Carbohydrate Diet

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, May 10, 2019.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    So much for carbs making you fat, diabetic, sick and old. This is a nice corroboration of the other thread I posted on Okinawan diet. The author of this study actually mentions the Okinawan people as second-most-healthy in terms of cardiovascular system. The Tsimane diet has the same amount of protein as the Western diets but it has dramatically less fat and of course, a lot of carbs.
    A High-carb Diet May Explain Why Okinawans Live So Long
    I do think there are additional factors at play here, such as living in nature and being completely isolated from modern society with all of its ills such as EMF, endocrine disruptors, toxic personalities, dog-eat-dog politics, etc. But still - I doubt the high-carb diets of both the Tsimane and Okinawans is just a coincidence.

    'Healthiest hearts in the world' found

    "...The scientists looked for coronary artery calcium or "CAC" - which is a sign of clogged up blood vessels and risk of a heart attack. The scientists scanned 705 people's hearts in a CT scanner after teaming up with a research group scanning mummified bodies. At the age of 45, almost no Tsimane had CAC in their arteries while 25% of Americans do. By the time they reach age 75, two-thirds of Tsimane are CAC-free compared with the overwhelming majority of Americans (80%) having signs of CAC. The researchers have been studying this group for a long time so it is not simply a case of the unhealthy Tsimane dying young. Michael Gurven, a professor of anthropology at University of California, Santa Barbara, told the BBC: "It is much lower than in every other population where data exists. "The closest were Japanese women, but it's still a different ballpark altogether."

    "...Dr Gavin Sandercock, reader in clinical physiology (cardiology) at the University of Essex, said: "This is an excellent study with unique findings. "The Tsimane get 72% of their energy from carbohydrates. "The fact that they have the best indicators of cardiovascular health ever reported is the exact opposite to many recent suggestions that carbohydrates are unhealthy."
     
  2. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    This thread brings me so much joy. :mrgreen:
     
  3. Peater Piper

    Peater Piper Member

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    Worth noting that both the Okinawan and Tsimane diets were starch-based.
     
  4. japanesedude

    japanesedude Member

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    I think Okinawan is genuinely mascular than most japanese.
    They have high androgen features.
     
  5. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    The tisamane have a very high mortality rate from infectious disease. They also supposedly have high CRP and some other inflammatory markers. Theyre life expectancy, I think, is in the 40-50s. Theyre diet aligns much more closely with a mcdougall diet than a peat diet. Thier staples are rice, plantains and manioc, with some foraged meats. Its notable that in Weston A. Price’s account of indigenous populations showed that the farming based groups, such as the tisamane, were much weaker than the pastoralists or hunting based groups and often had increased disease burden. As is implied by Peat, atleast from my persepctive, animal foods really are the more ideal foods for humans. Plant based foods seem to be a neccesary compliment, but the basis should be on nutirent dense animal foods.

    http://gurven.anth.ucsb.edu/sites/s...files/sitefiles/papers/gurvenetal2007AJHB.pdf
    “Summary of results
    1. Prior to 1990, 14% of Tsimane died in their first year of life, 26% before age 15 and 44% before age 45. Life expectancy at birth was 44 years. Upon reaching age 15, Tsi- mane could expect to live until age 58. Those reaching age 45 could expect to live until age 66. Those reaching age 65 live an average of 9 additional years.
    2. Sex differences in mortality are evident during reproductive adult years and late adulthood. Women show 35% higher mor- tality from 16 to 39 and men show 50% higher mortality after age 60.
    3. Villages in the remote forest and riverine regions show highest overall mortality, with 2–4 times higher mortality until middle adulthood.
    4. There was little change in mortality over most of the life course throughout the period 1950–1989. Overall life expectancy at birth improved by 10 years from 45 to 53 after 1990. There was a larger absolute and rela- tive period effect on death rates during mid- dle and late adulthood than during infancy and childhood. In the remote villages, infant death rates changed little, whereas death rates among older adults decreased sharply.
    5. Half of all deaths are due to infectious dis- ease, especially respiratory and gastroin- testinal infections. Accidents and violence account for about 14% of all deaths. Cancer and cardiovascular disease are relatively rare causes of death, but in old age, it is possible that their rates may be as high as those in developed countries.”

    ——————————————————————

    The okinawan prior to world war 2, from what I have read, have actually been known to eat a high fat diet, dependent upon lard and pork. The longevity you see in this population is related to the previous generations, not the current generations. The life expectancy has been steadily decreasing from what I understand. Following and during world war 2 the people in japan, including the okinawan prefecture, were starving. The okinawan people were forced to rely on foraged purple sweet potatoes native to the island for substinence. After world war two japan has become increasingly westernized such that american dietary habits involving vegetable, alcohol and processed foods have become increasingly more common. Due to the changes experienced over these 3 “eras” of japanese daily life, I think stating that the okinawans higher life expectancy is due to a high carb diet is misleading.


    I think these articles extolling, low animal food, low fat, high starch diets are at worst extensions of propaganda and at best misguided. The best way to eliminate chronic disease seems to be a nutrient dense diet of non-allergenic animal foods as a basis with a compliment of plant foods. Avoidance of PUFA and processed foods is also neccesary. This would leave us with a diet of meats/ seafood, saturated and monounsaturated fat sources, possibly dairy based on tolerance, specific vegetables, specific roots, specific tubers and fruit. I think for most people this should prevent most if not all chronic disease. If this diet is still causing issues, there are a few possible factors that may be inducing said issues:

    1) exposure to toxins consistenly (mercury, mold, lead, flouride, chlorine etc.)

    2) chronic infection (most likely in the gut [dysbiosis counts here] or the teeth [still basically the gut])

    3) excessive chronic stress (relationships, job, sleep etc.)

    #’s 1 and 3 are relatively simple (although not neccesarily easy) to address. # 2 is not currently easy or simple to adress considering lack of breast feeding, improper antibiotic use and years of poor diet that negatively modulates the intestinal flora towards a more pathogenic variety.
     
  6. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    If say the recommended daily protein intake is 100g, or 400 calories, and say a daily caloric intake of 2000 calories were used, that leaves 1600 calories left for carbs and fats. 72% of calories for carbs is 2000(.72), or 1440 calories. This leaves 160 calories for fats, or 8%.

    It is easily doable:

    Carbs - 72% - 1440 calories
    Protein- 20%- 400 calories
    Fats - 8% - 160 calories

    Then it's a matter of choosing the right carbs, protein, and fats.
     
  7. bzmazu

    bzmazu Member

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    :thumbsup: Good input to this thread...I agree
     
  8. Kelj

    Kelj Member

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  9. Lydie Baillie

    Lydie Baillie Member

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    Very enlightening. As usual, and once, these pro carb studies, this one only on 700 cadavers, are unscientific and disinformational. Thanks for sharing the context and whole facts.
     
  10. Homo Consumericus

    Homo Consumericus Member

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    Another junk science study summarily dismissed. To paraphrase Nobel Prize winning physicist Ivar Giaever, if you have one group of subjects drink onion soup and another drink tomato soup, you can find a journal willing to publish which group has less cancer, but it's not meaningful.

    But if we insist on talking about correlation, those who eat primarily animal protein and animal fat have higher LDL, higher HDL, improved faecal elimination, better cognition, lower triglycerides, lower insulin, and lower incidence of infectious disease according to Dr. Nadir Ali.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    The posts are not meant to advocate high-starch diet, they are just meant to show that a high-carb diet may be healthier than others likely due to its lower overall endotoxin load. The Tsimane and Okinawans eat primarily starch because this is the most easily obtainable source of carb for their populations. It's not like they can walk into a store and buy Coke/Pepsi/OJ for the whole tribe. We also have evidence from more controlled experiments that high-cab diet is likely better when it comes to longevity.
    Low-protein High-carb Diet Has The Same Benefits As Caloric Restriction
    Low-fat, High-carb, Ad-libitum Diet Leads To Fat/weight Loss In Women

    As far as the Tsimane and their CRP - it seems to be due to the high pathogen exposure. As far as infections and pathogens go I did not make any claims that high-carb diet is somehow better. It is a well-established fact that biggest killer in third-world countries is infectious disease while it is cancer/diabetes/CVD in the developed world. The topic of this forum is mostly chronic diseases considered incurable by mainstream medicine. I'd argue that infections are not that big of a deal/topic for most forum users. What is interesting is that the Tsimane have elevated RMR, which is consistent with Peat's writings on higher metabolism being protective against chronic disease. The study authors ascribe this higher RMR to chronic infection exposure but I am not convinced. IMO it is probably due to higher carb consumption.
    The inflammation paradox: Why are Tsimane protected... | F1000Research
    The Tsimane Health and Life History Project: Integrating anthropology and biomedicine
    "...Infections are the main source of Tsimane morbidity and mortality over the life course (Gurven, Kaplan, & Zelada Supa, 2007). Gastrointestinal illness and respiratory infections are frequent: 30%‐40% of infants and young children suffer from each; 30%‐40% of adults suffer from gastrointestinal illness; and 20%‐30% of adults suffer from respiratory infections. Living in a pathogenic environment likely favors pro‐inflammatory (CRP, IL‐6) alleles (Vasunilashorn, Finch, Frimmins, Vikman, Stieglitz, Gurven, Kaplan, & Allaye, 2011) and higher levels of inflammation than do more hygienic environments. Levels of CRP, an indicator of inflammation, are higher than among Americans, especially in childhood (Blackwell et al., 2016). Cross‐sectional estimates of life lived with high CRP indicate that by the age of 34 years, Tsimane have spent an average of 15 years (42% of life) with high CRP whereas, in the U. S., the corresponding number is 6.8 years (19%). Tsimane CRP levels in early life are higher than those sampled among diverse populations, including Italians, Mexicans, Filipinos, and Native Americans (Gurven, et al., 2008). CRP levels vary between and within individuals, with half of the total variation being between individuals; thus, elevations likely do not represent only acute infections, which instead are moderately stable within individuals over time (Blackwell et al., 2016). Trichomoniasis is more prevalent among Tsimane living near town than among those living farther from town (Stieglitz, Blackwell, Gutierrez, Linares, Gurven, & Kaplan, 2012). In contrast, Tsimane living farther from town have higher CRP than those living near town, suggesting higher exposure to other infectious diseases in remote villages. Other biomarkers also suggest high levels of immune activity throughout life: Tsimane have higher levels of leukocytes, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, B cells, and natural killer cells than do Americans at all ages (Blackwell et al., 2016). Tsimane adults also show a higher rate of decline in naïve CD4 T helper cells than occurs in other populations, which might put them at greater health risk when exposed to new infections (Blackwell et al., 2016). On average, 20% of Tsimane white blood cells (WBCs) are eosinophils, consistent with high levels of parasitic infection, as compared with a U.S. reference range of <5%. Antibodies related to infection are also high among Tsimane: immunoglobulin‐G (IgG) levels are about twice as high and IgE, which is most relevant for helminthic infection, is about 100 times higher than typical U.S. levels (Blackwell et al., 2011). Perhaps as a consequence of high levels of infection and immune activation, Tsimane have elevated resting metabolic rates and 10%‐15% of metabolism is associated with immune activation (Gurven, Trumble, Stieglitz, Yetish, Cummings, Blackwell, Beheim, Kaplan, & Pontzer, 2016).
     
  12. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    @haidut
    I’m not refuting your claims directly in my original post. I’m also not making a case against higher carb, just providing context to the picture overall. I’m not trying to provide support for fat over carbs in anyway. Personally I’m in favor of a higher carb diet with higher fat as well. I’m just not in favor of a lower fat diet, I have seen to many people fail horribly on it, including many on this forum.

    I’d argue that the tisamane actually have a higher microbial toxin load including endotoxins despite the lower fat diet. I also dont think that the high fat diet necessarily increases endotoxin load, quite the opposite. Furthermore i’d actually argue that most forum members and people in the US are dealing with infections; latent infections or dysbiotic infections in the bowel. If this wasnt the case then I think most people would be fine once they switched thier diet over to something less irritating and more nutrient dense, this obviously isnt the case. I think its paradoxical to state that you dont think infections are the issue most people are dealing with yet allude to endotoxin as a cause of disease in the higher fat diets; this is unless of course we are using a different definition of infection (mine personally includes bowel dysbiosis).

    As for the RMR and infection, it doesnt seem the increased RMR is protecting them at all with almost half dying before 50 years old. I also think its more plausible that the RMR is high specifically because of the infections, as opposed to the carbohydrates they are eating.

    As for the studies you referenced I have not read through them but from personal experience its easy to eat lower calories on an ad libitum low fat diet especially without granulated sugar. Besides there are quite a few people here on the forum eating a low fat diet ad libitum yet they are self proclaimed as “fat”. They like to blame it on the randle cycle and then try to go either lower fat or eat some meals with carbs or some meals with fat but I think this is misguided, especially considering my experience for myself and for others i know eating a high sat fat/ high sugar from fruit diet and losing significant amounts of weight despite increasing calories, especially from fat. It is known that saturated fat sources wont make animals fat. The same goes for fruit. Starch and PUFA are notorious for making animals fat. Pure Sucrose makes them at most overweight. Dairy’s purpose is specifically a weight gainer. It isnt the macros, its the food induced inflammation (wether through the gut microbiome or the pharmacological effects of the food) and subsequent metabolic effects. The macros are associative factors like cholesterol with heart disease.
     
  13. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    Bingo. A high carb diet decreases the amount of endotoxin that actually gets in to the lymph and blood. That is a point I was highlighting here a lot several months ago. A high carb diet increases the amount of bacteria in the gut, but without dietary fat the bacteria remain harmless. You get all the excellent benefits of burning mainly carbs as fuel and low inflammation. Eating a fatty standard american diet (especially one high in vitamin e depleted ozidized pufa and saturated fat) brings about low grade endotoxemia. Unless one goes on a keto style diet - in which case the gut may start to become more sterile, acting to lower endotoxin load. The middle ground e.g 25% to 70% dietary fat is terrible for overall health. This is the range where gallstones are most likely to form, reduced bile flow begets dysbiosis and endotoxemia.
     
  14. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    I have a question about this comment. I'm not really disagreeing with you much if at all, more a curiosity than anything else. Have studies been done comparing the differences between eating fat and carbs in the same meal or fat and carbs as separate meals, but the exact same macronutrients otherwise? I think a lot of the problems is mixing fats and sugars in the same meal, but studies showing this would be interesting.

    For myself, anecdotally, even eating fat alone without carbs is problematic, but I've got various health issues, so they may not apply to someone healthy.
     
  15. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    I am not familiar with studies that get that specific but I am interested too. I think a little fat with every meal is important because keeping bile in the gut has many benefits.
     
  16. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    I dunno how important dietary fat is anymore -- at least if you're overweight and PUFA loaded. If there is a benefit it's very small in the amount that you want. Didn't ray peat say you should only have somewhere between a TSP and a TBSP of coconut oil a day? It was in response to someone asking him if several TBSP a day was a good idea, I think. The problem is, it can be easy to take things out of context "Some fat is beneficial" and then extrapolate that to several TBSP of coconut oil or whatever.

    *edit*

    Coconut Oil looks like the most he ever took was 200-250 calories worth of CO, so basically a couple tablespoons. That seems fairly reasonable.

     
  17. Ponce

    Ponce Member

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    It’s impossible to propose contradictions just on the postulate of individualism when it is a study carried out on a large audience. Although everyone is different in metabolism, a study or an individual like Ray Peat, responsible for giving general advice to a majority of people, is not refutable based on personal experience "this or that diet works on me so ... " etc ...
    Just to remember this fundamental principle of public health
     
  18. Oraganic4me

    Oraganic4me Member

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    I watched a TV special on Okinawa a culinary tour. The guy was invited over to the special area where lots of centenarians live for dinner. He asked what was this delicious meal...
    It was. Bitter Melon fried in vegetable oil, then sautéed with greens (probably bok choy) onions, soy sauce and the secret ingredient for longevity “ canned spam “ which is a local favorite..even the host was surprised... they love it. All this goodness was served over white rice.
    After dinner they sat around sang songs and danced like a ti chi type of moves and laughed for hours ..
    I think the secret to their longevity remains a mystery to me.. but I think it’s most likely love...
    because they seem to have a sense of community, they really care about each other.. if my neighbors saw me pass out on the side walk they would just walk over me :(
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, I fully agree with the first part...and...empathize with the second one. But there is good news. Apparently, the initial studies claiming we live in a walk on by society were exaggerated and people are a lot more caring than we were led to believe.
    They Watched 219 Acts of Public Aggression. What They Saw Will Change How You Feel About Society
    "...Reports of road rage and the occasional attack on a good Samaritan might lead you to believe we live in a society where the best motto is simply to mind your own business. But new research that involved the largest study ever done with real conflicts captured on CCTV shows strangers almost always step up to intervene on behalf of victims in public. "According to conventional wisdom, non-involvement is the default response of bystanders during public emergencies," said Dr. Richard Philpot of Lancaster University and the University of Copenhagen, who co-authored the study published in American Psychologist. "Challenging this view... video data shows that intervention is the norm in actual aggressive conflicts."
     
  20. Oraganic4me

    Oraganic4me Member

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    I agree, good to know that deep inside people are good. Thanks for sharing those studies.
     
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