The Peat Ratio Of Foods (Glycine Vs Methionine, Cysteine And Tryptophan)

Discussion in 'Discussing Dietary Models' started by Hans, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. Hans

    Hans Member

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    There is a Fernstrom ratio which looks at the amount of tryptophan in foods compared to other large neutral amino acids such as the BCAAs, tyrosine and phenylalanine.

    I thought of doing the same with glycine compared to methionine, cysteine and tryptophan.
    So I'm just going to list a few common foods and we can add more foods to this thread.

    The higher the number, the better.

    Skim milk: 0.7 (glycine)/(0.2 (cysteine)+0.9 (methionine)+0.4 (tryptophan)) = 0.467
    Ground beef: 0.926
    Sirloin: 1.071
    Lamb chop loin: 1.077
    Goat milk: 0.333
    Bison: 1.396
    Yogurt: 0.268
    Gelatin: 31.667
    Chicken breast: 0.909
    Chicken thigh: 0.595
    Turkey breast: 0.909
    Potato: 0.733
    Casein: 0.455
    Whey: 0.294
    Beef liver: 1.333
    Beef kidney: 1.133
    Beef heart: 1.071
    Oysters: 1.3
    Shrimp: 1.12
    Cod: 0.917
    Squid: 1.286
    Soy protein: 1.111
    Pea protein: 1.286
    Rice protein: 0.833
    Macadamia nuts: 4.667
    Almonds: 2.636
     
  2. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    I notice all "whole" packaged food (egg yolks, bovine milk, human breast milk, potatoes, etc) don't really have a high glycine:methionine ratio. If humans needed more, breast milk would've likely delivered. What's the source of desire for higher amounts of glycine?

    I suppose mTOR becomes effectively worthless with age, but seems to be something that can be reset with alternate-day or 2 days on + 1 day off (dry) fasting. Maybe even just protein restriction on the 3rd day, as that's when the body habituates to a certain level of protein intake.

    Fasting days are great, as they result in a surplus on feeding days even if at maintenance or a 300-500 calorie deficit. A surplus of energy is needed in order for mTOR to work effectively.

    mTOR handles serine, glycine, collagen, creatine, hyaluronic acid, etc synthesis. With vitamins, minerals, proteins, a surplus, etc, maybe it'll make all that's required.

    Dry fasting results in stem cell proliferation within 24 hours rather than the 72 hours required with a water fast.

    Combining muscle meat with the associated bone (broth) tends to balance out glycine:methionine and calcium:phosphorus. After all, the greatest vacuums for collagen are muscle and bone. Mainly due to raw volume/size.

    To effectively compare glycine to methionine, serine, choline, and cysteine also have to be added. Serine and choline can both become glycine and cysteine parallels methionine. Paints a slightly different picture when looking at scallops, for example.
     
  3. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    why not do

    glycine/proline/lysine
    versus
    cysteine/methionine/tryptophan
     
  4. OP
    Hans

    Hans Member

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    The more glycine a food has the more anti-inflammatory it gets. So a high glycine to methionine ratio is good. I added in cysteine and tryptophan because Peat also talked about them being inflammatory and shortens lifespan.

    Although amino acids can be converted to other amino acids, I don't think it that a big enough reason to put them into the equation. Someone might make a lot of glycine, someone might not. It does have merit, but that might just overcomplicate the formula.
    That is a good idea, but glycine has more of a direct antagonistic effect to methionine, but I guess if I'm going to include all inflammatory amino acids, I might include all anti-inflammatory amino acids.
    Cronometer doesn't show the hydroxyproline for a lot of food, so that also complicates things.
     
  5. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    The conversion depends on energy surplus, sensitivity to mTOR, and abundance of vitamins.

    Is glycine anti mainly due to blocking mTOR? I'm still wondering now (in general), as all the whole growth foods have less preformed glycine and more of the "bad" amino acids. If humans wanted more, it would've been present in breast milk.

    Formula should be (multiply used to cancel out significance of units): (glycine * serine * choline) / (methionine * cysteine * tryptophan).

    You can also use logarithm: log(glycine) + log(serine) + log(choline) - log(methionine) - log(cysteine) - log(tryptophan).
     
  6. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    If this was a comparison between two amino acids, we could make it more fair by fixing one of them a changing the other. Even though it would give a meaningless ratio when one amino acid is relativized with the other because there are molecule differences (glycine here being the simplest), the comparison between proteins would be alright.

    But when we add more amino acids, it becomes confusing because on top of ignoring specifaisafoicities, we don't know the contribution of each factor. If a protein has more of heavier and less of lighter amino acids, it will make it seem disfavorable for glycine when it's not necessarily the case.

    If we was to compare two dietary fats that are equally unsaturated, the one containing fatty acids of longer chains will take up more space and make it appear more unsaturated in spite of the fact that the labile part could remain the same.
    - Why Does Peat Say Beef Is Low PUFA? Studies Are Contrary. I Don't Get It

    On the other hand, expressing in terms of molecules will be impractical (John Fernstrom should've sticked to it), we could weigh the protein on a scale, so it's nice to know how the amino acids should be distributed.

    The solution is to give up. But seriously, we also have to know up to when oversimplification yields practical measures.
     
  7. OP
    Hans

    Hans Member

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    There are many reasons to have glycine in the diet and it's not just to antagonize methionine. Here is a quote from on of Peat's newsletters:

    "Tryptophan and methionine
    contribute to the formation of polyamines, so gelatin which lacks those amino acids and is
    soothing to the intestine, should be a regular part of the diet."

    I'll post more Peat quotes here if I come across more.
     
  8. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    Multiplying together (rather than summing) eliminates weight of units. That is, scores can be used to accurately rank as long as units are consistent down a column (each amino).

    My claim is that mTOR synthesizes glycine. And creatine, serine, hyaluronic acid, collagen, etc. Maybe it's better to leave room for mTOR to work and properly cycle with AMPK (eg, oscillate between surplus and protein restriction) than add more glycine.

    With age or following of a keto approach, manually adding may make more sense. But even then, human breast milk doesn't contain as much.

    Proper B vitamin (and methylation) status spares wasting glycine to excrete methyl groups. See: egg yolks.
     
  9. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    If you mean manipulating the information in a way that the units disappear (as in ratios), it's still based on them. How can you arrive at something meaningful if you don't know what you're dealing with? For example, Charnathan, Jorge and Terma have brains weighing about 1.4 kg. If you have Terma as denominator, you can presume a mental capacity ratio of 2, yet your information didn't account for that Charnathan has virtually null, which means that in reality it's 1 and the previous ratio had no practical use.
     
  10. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    You were talking about the variation in weight/moles and what they mean. In this context, such adjustments parallel mA + b. That is, they are captured by applying a scale and an offset. Both are made irrelevant in the comparison/combining of columns by the use of multiplication rather than summation.
     
  11. OP
    Hans

    Hans Member

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    Are you implying that glycine might hamper hypertrophy or growth in general? Although more research is needed on this, gelatin/collagen has been shown to be anabolic.
    I think the general benefit of glycine is to oppose the inflammatory amino acids with its anti-inflammatory effect. Glycine itself can also activate mTOR.
     
  12. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    I said glycine synthesis is a product of mTOR. More mTOR activity/output, more glycine.
     
  13. OP
    Hans

    Hans Member

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    So you want to let mTOR supply the glycine rather than consuming it? Why?
     
  14. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    I suppose you can also consume directly. I'm pointing out that "heavy hitter" foods (potatoes, egg yolks, human milk, bovine milk, etc) don't have a high ratio and that proper mTOR/AMPK cycling leads to protein synthesis.

    Egg yolks are slightly misleading, as they have high amounts of choline and serine. Both can become glycine, leading to high glycine potential.

    I'm almost convinced the "ideal" diet involves nothing other than (truly pastured organic raw) egg yolks, some electrolytes (based on nutrients in equivalent number of egg whites), and maybe vitamin C (if yolk doesn't already contain the oxidized form).
     
  15. OP
    Hans

    Hans Member

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    Heavy hitters as in muscle builders? But none of those would be able to be the perfect diet on their own. Some food might be fantastic, but not 100% optimal. I still think gelatin plays a big role in a healthy diet. Glycine inhibits AMPK, which also should promote hypertrophy.
    Yolks are great (except the high PUFA content), but I still don't think that would be a perfect, balanced sustainable diet.
     
  16. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I'm not getting what you's conveying, but me and Charnathan used to be classmates, we were 'special'. Patience. Could you demonstrate with values from skim milk above?
     
  17. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    No, as in clean whole foods. They are whole foods made to be eaten (and to support growth).

    Yolks also seem to have many nutrients to protect against negative effects from PUFAs, leaving them a great choice if down that path.

    You could follow a diet with fat from yolks, protein from chicken liver, and carbs from potatoes and be fine. Peatworld would likely have problems with the level of iron and PUFA, I suppose.

    Egg yolks could be consumed on their own and sustain once growth plates have fused. Same with raw milk, if enough cups were consumed.
     
  18. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    The columns in this case are glycine, serine, choline, cysteine, and methionine. They are columns as many items featuring the same/common values exist to to be ranked. For example, milk and eggs.

    To see which have the higher values, the columns would be weighted and combined. In the OP, applied weights are all 1 and columns are combined via summation.

    Summation is satisfactory if units across columns are identical (eg, all are meters/second and represent the same thing). In this case, units are not the same.

    The presence of choline is enough to demonstrate. That is, some fraction of choline becomes glycine. 1 gram may lead to production of 0.75 grams (didn't check). One can either apply the appropriate scale to choline (to make units equal) and sum, or shift up to multiplication. Multiplication eliminates the relevance of applied scales and offsets.

    3x + 4y + 27z becomes: e ^ ([3x * log(x) / x] + [4y * log(y) / y] + [27z * log(z) / z])

    Eliminating e (as it's a rank and so the exponent will suffice) and redundant variables leave: 3 * log(x) + 4 * log(y) + 27 * log(z)
     
  19. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    If your input is in grams, how the results aren't compromised without applying a factor that will adjust for differences? And how would you do it with these values and nothing else?
     
  20. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    What differences?

    0.7 / (0.2 * 0.9 * 0.4)
     
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