The Most OVERLOOKED Peat Quote

Recoen

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I thought RP advised at least 2x carbs to protein?
 
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jb116

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Built on Peat principles, I've been averaging about 300 to 700 grams just from sugar from OJ daily for 3 years now, not counting any starch or other sources. During the hot season I definitely am closer to 700 from OJ sugar.
 

milkboi

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Built on Peat principles, I've been averaging about 300 to 700 grams just from sugar from OJ daily for 3 years now, not counting any starch or other sources. During the hot season I definitely am closer to 700 from OJ sugar.

Cool. How are you doing health-wise?
 
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Maljam

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Built on Peat principles, I've been averaging about 300 to 700 grams just from sugar from OJ daily for 3 years now, not counting any starch or other sources. During the hot season I definitely am closer to 700 from OJ sugar.

In my opinion, that going against Peats principles and is a prime example of people taking things he praises to the extreme. Don't blame Peat when your health starts to deteriorate, that's all on you.

Also, some people smoke and live past 100.

Glad you seem to be doing well, but this thread was for the people not doing well yet continuing to eat a higher than recommended carb intake.
 

Tenacity

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Has he been advising people to eat more carbs? Does he disagree with his old 180-250 recommendations?

He has been advising people eat less fat. That would logically imply they are consuming either more protein or carbohydrate.
 
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Maljam

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He has been advising people eat less fat. That would logically imply they are consuming either more protein or carbohydrate.

So you would rather follow a quote where you have to logically imply and read between the lines, instead of one where he gives actual figures and says look, most people need between 180-250?

This is the exact pitfall of people struggling with the "Peat diet." Thinking they know what Peat says which is contradictory to what he actually says.

He could also just mean less calories.
 
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jb116

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In my opinion, that going against Peats principles and is a prime example of people taking things he praises to the extreme. Don't blame Peat when your health starts to deteriorate, that's all on you.

Also, some people smoke and live past 100.

Glad you seem to be doing well, but this thread was for the people not doing well yet continuing to eat a higher than recommended carb intake.

Thanks for the drama lol but I think the point is that there are other factors other than the definitive "you're eating too much sugar." It in fact may be a correlation which changes as health changes. If somebody had issues with pyruvate enzymes for example I would only criticize the amount of carbs in that context until they get enough nutrients and cofactors to metabolize the carbs properly. Then my tune would change regarding the carbs but only in their situation. And meanwhile the whole time I'm still leaning in an ascending way regarding carbs for that person. It's all about perspective. We know this because Peat has said on kmud for example several hundred grams and he has specifically said a range up to 350 grams in the context of good metabolism. So, try not to get caught up on the "too much carbs" idea. It is more about co-factors, nutrients, thyroid and metabolic health. In my case, I have gotten better while monitoring PUFA depletion, increasing carbs (as I said mentioned above: ascending manner), and monitoring nutrient intake. I've posted before about having struggled with crohn's 20 years ago, then about 10 years ago things just started feeling shitty again and about 6 years ago I took the bull by the horns. Sugar and carbs has only helped me.

And may be you are saying the same thing ultimately as me, it's just your post as this bent to it as the ole run of the mill "too much carbs" attitude. It ain't about that strictly speaking.
 
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jb116

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So you would rather follow a quote where you have to logically imply and read between the lines, instead of one where he gives actual figures and says look, most people need between 180-250?

This is the exact pitfall of people struggling with the "Peat diet." Thinking they know what Peat says which is contradictory to what he actually says.

He could also just mean less calories.
No he means keeping calories up, in context of good metabolism. Again, he has said this before, as an example on kmud interviews. Context! About 2000 calories for a metabolically healthy person while maintaining reasonably low fat. Some may need extreme low fat to get going again.
 
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Maljam

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Thanks for the drama lol but I think the point is that there are other factors other than the definitive "you're eating too much sugar." It in fact may be a correlation which changes as health changes. If somebody had issues with pyruvate enzymes for example I would only criticize the amount of carbs in that context until they get enough nutrients and cofactors to metabolize the carbs properly. Then my tune would change regarding the carbs but only in their situation. And meanwhile the whole time I'm still leaning in an ascending way regarding carbs for that person. It's all about perspective. We know this because Peat has said on kmud for example several hundred grams and he has specifically said a range up to 350 grams in the context of good metabolism. So, try not to get caught up on the "too much carbs" idea. It is more about co-factors, nutrients, thyroid and metabolic health. In my case, I have gotten better while monitoring PUFA depletion, increasing carbs (as I said mentioned above: ascending manner), and monitoring nutrient intake. I've posted before about having struggled with crohn's 20 years ago, then about 10 years ago things just started feeling shitty again and about 6 years ago I took the bull by the horns. Sugar and carbs has only helped me.

And may be you are saying the same thing ultimately as me, it's just your post as this bent to it as the ole run of the mill "too much carbs" attitude. It ain't about that strictly speaking.

I dont think our thoughts are that far apart.

People with the mythical "good metabolism" can get away with a lot more. What I am trying to explain is that a large amount of the people on this forum are not in this category, yet continually try to raise their carbs, or keep their carbs at colossal levels while they search for answers, all while gaining pound after pound in weight, and not realise the carbs are causing the problem in their current situation. If you say you need co factors to process the carbs. The "co factors" are so elusive, while people search for the answer, the easiest thing would be to drop the amount of carbs people are eating (temporary, if they like) while they work on healing themselves. Someone that is in bad health and constantly pushes their carbs higher and higher, and their health continues to decline, shouldnt be encouraged to raise them further. I truly believe there are people on this forum eating way more carbs than they should while their health deteriorates, but they dont think they are allowed to drop the carbs down because that is "against the Peat way."
 
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Maljam

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No he means keeping calories up, in context of good metabolism. Again, he has said this before, as an example on kmud interviews. Context! About 2000 calories for a metabolically healthy person while maintaining reasonably low fat. Some may need extreme low fat to get going again.

See above. I think you are thinking about people that already in good health with robust metabolisms, I am thinking of people with poor health that are being told to eat the same as those with good metabolisms. Lowering the carbs down will benefit a lot in this situation.

We are getting off topic but extreme low fat creates a whole host of health problems IMO.
 
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jb116

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I dont think our thoughts are that far apart.

People with the mythical "good metabolism" can get away with a lot more. What I am trying to explain is that a large amount of the people on this forum are not in this category, yet continually try to raise their carbs, or keep their carbs at colossal levels while they search for answers, all while gaining pound after pound in weight, and not realise the carbs are causing the problem in their current situation. If you say you need co factors to process the carbs. The "co factors" are so elusive, while people search for the answer, the easiest thing would be to drop the amount of carbs people are eating (temporary, if they like) while they work on healing themselves. Someone that is in bad health and constantly pushes their carbs higher and higher, and their health continues to decline, shouldnt be encouraged to raise them further. I truly believe there are people on this forum eating way more carbs than they should while their health deteriorates, but they dont think they are allowed to drop the carbs down because that is "against the Peat way."
If you emphasize metabolism and/or thyroid health like that, then I am with you. But I don't remain on that side of the definitive fence because the interpretation can be iffy. My simple method, not just for myself, has been, again, in an ascending way leaning on carbs as fuel while searching for the missing nutrients while depleting PUFA carefully. I've done this with prediabetics, "auto-immune" individuals (including myself), etc. And I emphasize to go slow. If you try to build Rome in a day, it'll collapse. So in that regard it also means as you regain health or reclaim your health, go (relatively) slow with the introduction of increased carbs. Forget the carb number as that will change any way. Go by symptoms, satiety, how you feel overall. No hard and fast rule, just context and application of principle.

No hard and fast rule Including how you incorporate fat.
 

Kvothe

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With protein at 150g of the diet and 24% calories, this leaves 127g of fat and at 46% of the diet, all within fairly moderate and sensible amounts.

Talking about getting too much of something...150g of protein is insane for an average person. The average person's protein intake is around 50-70g (a little more for men), or 12-14%. Getting 25% protein is certainly not beneficial unless your are a true metabolic beast.
 
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Maljam

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Talking about getting too much of something...150g of protein is insane for an average person. The average person's protein intake is around 50-70g (a little more for men), or 12-14%. Getting 25% protein is certainly not beneficial unless your are a true metabolic beast.

The average person has ***t health, why do you aspire to be the average person?

50-70g is protein deficiency territory.

Peat himself says he eats 150g and he is an 80+ year old sedentary man.

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)
 

gaze

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In my experience, it all depends on the person. This is an email exchange I had with Ray back in 2015 when I was misdiagnosed as not having SIBO and was having issues with most foods:

“On Feb 19, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jennifer wrote:

“Do you think eating a diet that consists of milk, cheese, meat/shellfish, eggs, juice and small amounts of butter or coconut oil would be a nutritionally complete and healthy diet to do? After doing the fruitarian diet, I don't seem to tolerate fiber at all. It gives me a lot of painful trapped gas in my colon area. I could try the flowers of sulphur again and see if it helps, but for the time being I'm hoping to avoid fiber if I can.

On Feb 19, 2015, at 4:47 PM, Ray Peat wrote:

“I think fiber is always a risk (I avoid them all except for occasional well cooked mushrooms and bamboo shoots, which are germicidal). The foods you list contain all the essential nutrients.”

And from the Ray Peat email exchanges:

“They aren't necessary [FIBER], for example milk supports abundant bacterial growth that creates bulk, but when there are digestive and hormonal problems because of bad intestinal flora, the fibers of carrot and bamboo shoots have a disinfecting action. The carrots must be raw for that effect.“ Ray Peat

“[Fiber-free diet possible?] I’ve had a fiber-free diet for many years.“ Ray Peat

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

When my peristalsis was weak due to poor thyroid and adrenal function, I needed fiber to facilitate elimination but since following Ray’s advice, with some of my own tweaks and starting thyroid supplementation, I cleared the SIBO and now have perfect elimination despite eating zero fiber most days. Eliminating fiber helped increase my chronically low cholesterol level so I could increase my thyroid dose and finally start overcoming issues that had plagued me since falling ill 12 years prior.

Thanks for the quotes, also what type of reaction were getting when you took thyroid with low cholestrol? was it not registering or turning into anxiety?
 

postman

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Blah blah blah

If you're hungry for sugar your body can probably use it. Once you've had enough it becomes unpleasant. If you're having problems with ever present weight gain then lowering carb intake is one road you can take.
 

Jessie

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@Jennifer By non-fermentable fiber I was meaning stuff like cooked mushrooms, shredded carrot salad, bamboo shoots, etc. Basically the germicidal fibers that will push bacteria back down into the lower digestive tract. I just think it's an easily overlooked area that many people may forget about.

I really don't find it hard to consume the RDI for fiber this way. 100 grams of raw shredded carrot will provide roughly 15 grams of fiber. 1lb of cooked mushrooms will provide an additional 4 grams of fiber. I can usually get 20 grams of fiber daily without even thinking about it. Add a handful of berries and some cooked apples/pears and you're approaching 30 grams.

But keep doing whatever is working for you. I guess it's possible no fiber would work comparatively as good, kind of like fasting almost.

I dont think our thoughts are that far apart.

People with the mythical "good metabolism" can get away with a lot more. What I am trying to explain is that a large amount of the people on this forum are not in this category, yet continually try to raise their carbs, or keep their carbs at colossal levels while they search for answers, all while gaining pound after pound in weight, and not realise the carbs are causing the problem in their current situation. If you say you need co factors to process the carbs. The "co factors" are so elusive, while people search for the answer, the easiest thing would be to drop the amount of carbs people are eating (temporary, if they like) while they work on healing themselves. Someone that is in bad health and constantly pushes their carbs higher and higher, and their health continues to decline, shouldnt be encouraged to raise them further. I truly believe there are people on this forum eating way more carbs than they should while their health deteriorates, but they dont think they are allowed to drop the carbs down because that is "against the Peat way."

I feel like you're probably just mistaking "too much carbs" with "too much calories." The few people I've seen complaining about weight gain on a bioenergetic approach were eating like 4,000-5,000 calories everyday. This is way too much for the typical average metabolism, particularly when said metabolism in question is impaired by enviromental toxins. If someone eats their maintenance level of calories while eliminating PUFA, sterilizing the gut, balancing calcium/phosphate, and getting adequate protein they won't gain weight. Some subjects may also need thyroid, in which case there's several protocols, but the most recommended is the Broda Barnes protocol.
 

Jennifer

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You’re welcome, @Kammas! :) Yep, it was triggering stress hormones so I had anxiety, sweating, a racing heart/palpitations, shortness of breath, elevated temps — my morning temp was up to 99° and my daytime temp, 101° — and cold feet. I had my doctor check my cholesterol level and it had dropped to 122. By eliminating fiber and clearing the SIBO, my cholesterol rose to 187, enough to add another grain of NDT.

@Jessie — Yep, I understood what you meant by non-fermentable insoluble fibers, but thank you for explaining further. I didn’t find it hard to get fiber either, quite the opposite actually — I averaged over 100 grams daily while on a fruitarian diet. Insoluble fiber still causes me the most issues. Maybe my gut is still messed up from going years with an untreated overgrowth and thyroid, but even the carrot salad and cooked mushrooms have me doubled over in pain and vomiting from severe cramping and migraines.
 
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gaze

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You’re welcome, @Kammas! :) Yep, it was triggering stress hormones so I had anxiety, sweating, a racing heart/palpitations, shortness of breath, elevated temps — my morning temp was up to 99° and my daytime temp, 101° — and cold feet. I had my doctor check my cholesterol level and it had dropped to 122. By eliminating fiber and clearing the SIBO, my cholesterol rose to 187, enough to add another grain of NDT.

dang 122 to 187, you must of felt like a completely different human hahahaha. thats amazing.
 

Jennifer

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dang 122 to 187, you must of felt like a completely different human hahahaha. thats amazing.
Ohh...yeah! I’m feeling pretty awesome these days. :)
 

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