The Masculinizing Effects Of Estrogen

[Such_Saturation]

What were your thyroid hormones like?

I had been seeing a naturopath and had 5 ER visits more than a year prior to fracturing my spine and a thyroid panel had only been done a year after I was at my worst so this is as accurate as I can get numbers wise. At that point, in 2010, I had already gained 15 pounds from my lowest of 70 pounds. Below were my stats at that time.

Weight: 85 pounds
O2 Sat: 100%
Temp: 98 degrees F oral
Pulse: 92
BP sitting: 118/82

TSH: .95
Free T4: 1.14 ng/dL Ref. range: .76-1.46
Total T4: 12.5 ug/dL Ref. range: 4.8-13.9
T3 levels were never checked.

I had/have some of your symptoms, maybe it's indeed to chronically high adrenalin. I'd feel energized yet relaxed after sport (endorphin release?), even if it was unhealthy exercise (eg., on empty stomach). However, I would feel sluggish after insomnia. I didn't lose hair, but when it got bad I was young, early twenties, so I think I was using up my birth resources.

Yeah, I was in my early twenties when I noticed weight dropping off and I thought it was due to hiking, but my brother who was my hiking partner was not losing weight. In fact, no one I hiked with regularly, lost weight. I always ate well on our hikes and binged afterwards so it definitely wasn't a calorie issue.

In the book Catching Fire How Cooking Made us Human the author goes into detail about how people on a raw foods diet do not fare as well as people on a diet with a majority of cooked foods. Women particularly lose fertility when eating raw compared to women eating mostly cooked foods even when the calories are the same. It seems we might be the only animals on the planet adapted to eat predominantly cooked foods. It's an interesting read and would explain why people eating mostly raw seem to develop problems. Cooking does seem to make many foods easier to digest hence our large brains and small gut compared to other animals. I don't know if he is totally correct but he makes some interesting points.

Yeah, I've thought a lot about what was stated in Catching Firing and based on my experience, I would have to agree. Because despite eating mostly "easily digestible" fruit calories, I think all the fiber irritated my gut to the point of not being able to absorb nutrients efficiently and I wonder if those who drop weight on that diet, suffering from the same thing.

This is what Ray had to say about an all fruit diet:

"Fruits vary in their protein content and amino acid balance; if we had more knowledge about the amino acids in each fruit, a pure fruit diet might be ideal, but I think it would be risky without that information. Independent researchers have trouble buying the reagents needed for that kind of study, so I haven't done it." - Ray Peat

I believe even if we had more knowledge about the amino acids in fruit, unless we're juicing them, there's the issue of excessive amounts of fiber to get in the calories one needs to sustain on only fruit. Then there's the issue of trying to acquire an abundance of ripe fruit year round. Just that stress alone negated most benefits I received from the diet. At least that was my experience.

How did they rule out Grave's, adenoma, etc.?

 

[Jennifer]

How did they rule out Grave's, adenoma, etc.?

As far as they were concerned, I was just some girl with an eating disorder who wasn't telling them the truth. To them, every possible reason for what I suffered stemmed from an eating disorder, despite telling them that I didn't have a menstrual cycle even before I lost weight.

My doctor at the time, after seeing the results of my hormone tests, stuck me on estrogen replacement therapy and put me on the WAPF diet. She was convinced that my previous fruitarian diet was the cause of all this. She has a blog and actually wrote about my story that I linked to in the getting ripped thread.

Years later, after fighting to get a MRI done of my head, nothing but a tiny deformity in a vessel near the base of my scull was found. I was told by the nurse reviewing my results that "that's just the way God made you" and the small abnormality wasn't anything to be concerned about.

I've had tons of other tests since, like ultrasounds, CT scans, an upper endoscopy ect. and nothing comes back abnormal other than my inflamed gut and lack of progesterone without progest-e supplementation.

 

[Such_Saturation]

How did they rule out Grave's, adenoma, etc.?

As far as they were concerned, I was just some girl with an eating disorder who wasn't telling them the truth. To them, every possible reason for what I suffered stemmed from an eating disorder, despite telling them that I didn't have a menstrual cycle even before I lost weight.

My doctor at the time, after seeing the results of my hormone tests, stuck me on estrogen replacement therapy and put me on the WAPF diet. She was convinced that my previous fruitarian diet was the cause of all this. She has a blog and actually wrote about my story that I linked to in the getting ripped thread.

Years later, after fighting to get a MRI done of my head, nothing but a tiny deformity in a vessel near the base of my scull was found. I was told by the nurse reviewing my results that "that's just the way God made you" and the small abnormality wasn't anything to be concerned about.

I've had tons of other tests since, like ultrasounds, CT scans, an upper endoscopy ect. and nothing comes back abnormal other than my inflamed gut and lack of progesterone without progest-e supplementation.

That's exactly the sub-optimal health system we are born into. Perhaps we should add a couple years of "forced sickness" to every doctor's education so they can stop working like computers and use their brain.

 

[jyb]

Well, I wasn't anorexic in the sense that I never starved myself of calories, but at a previous weight of 70 pounds, I definitely fell into the anorexic category so we could go by my bloodwork as a clue. My blood tests revealed I had hardly any hormones to speak of, including estrogen and as one would expect, extremely low cholesterol and a major protein deficiency.

How do you react to supplemented thyroid? I originally thought that a chronic level of adrenalin is related to why I can't feel any effect (good or bad, whatever dose or brand) of thyroid supps.

 

[Jennifer]

Well, I wasn't anorexic in the sense that I never starved myself of calories, but at a previous weight of 70 pounds, I definitely fell into the anorexic category so we could go by my bloodwork as a clue. My blood tests revealed I had hardly any hormones to speak of, including estrogen and as one would expect, extremely low cholesterol and a major protein deficiency.

How do you react to supplemented thyroid? I originally thought that a chronic level of adrenalin is related to why I can't feel any effect (good or bad, whatever dose or brand) of thyroid supps.

Oh, that's right! You did mention not getting any effect from thyroid, but that you do from the potato protein soup. Thyroid does nothing for me also, yet I take it anyways. LOL

I actually notice better effects from taking progest-e. It keeps my temps up and my stress hormones down. I can tell by my dreams. If I have bad dreams and wake in the night, I know adrenaline and cortisol are at play. With progest-e, I usually sleep through the night and have pleasant dreams. I also noticed that my THS improved quite a bit when I first started taking it.

 

[jyb]

Oh, that's right! You did mention not getting any effect from thyroid, but that you do from the potato protein soup. Thyroid does nothing for me also, yet I take it anyways. LOL

I actually notice better effects from taking progest-e. It keeps my temps up and my stress hormones down. I can tell by my dreams. If I have bad dreams and wake in the night, I know adrenaline and cortisol are at play. With progest-e, I usually sleep through the night and have pleasant dreams. I also noticed that my THS improved quite a bit when I first started taking it.

Ok that's interesting as I haven't met many with the same problem of not reacting at all to supplemented thyroid. So far, possible causes I've seen mentioned on this forum are: chronically high stress hormones, some mineral deficiency like selenium, excess iron.

Did you ever asked Peat about it? A long time ago, I asked him about it indirectly but I got a pretty generic response (cut pill in pieces, which I was already doing).

I ruled out high adrenalin, because Peaty measures bring about a relaxed state where those hormones *should* be low, yet thyroid still no effect. However, your experience with thyroid and definite adrenalin symptoms suggest that it could be related to that.

I ruled out iron, because I donated blood for 1.5 years now.

I ruled out selenium deficiency, because shellfish and short term supplements didn't change that.

I confirm that potato extract and red light seem to be able to have immediate heart rate effect. I also liked progesterone, but now I use mostly pregnenolone since I made it work I'm a male so its preferable. Like you, I continued to take thyroid even if no effect because at least bloodwork showed it KILLED my TSH completely, and in theory that's good.

 

[Jennifer]

Did you ever asked Peat about it? A long time ago, I asked him about it indirectly but I got a pretty generic response (cut pill in pieces, which I was already doing).

No, I've never contacted him. I didn't want to bother him since he gets so many emails.

I ruled out high adrenalin, because Peaty measures bring about a relaxed state where those hormones *should* be low, yet thyroid still no effect. However, your experience with thyroid and definite adrenalin symptoms suggest that it could be related to that.

I think the high adrenaline stems from my gut because when I take or eat something that results in intestinal burning and a subsequent facial rash, I immediately feel my heart start to race, my face and ears start burning up and my temps rise to around the 99+ degree F mark. As soon as the rash goes down and the intestinal burning subsides, my temps go back down to around 97.8 - 98 degrees.

When I was taking activated charcoal, my temps stayed high consistently to the point I was perspiring, my heart was racing a lot and I ended up with a very painful gut and a blistered rash on my face. I stopped the AC and the racing heart, rash and pain in my intestines went away, along with the high temps and perspiration.

At this point, I feel as long as my gut is inflamed, thyroid doesn't stand a chance at reducing my stress hormones.

I confirm that potato extract and red light seem to be able to have immediate heart rate effect. I also liked progesterone, but now I use mostly pregnenolone since I made it work I'm a male so its preferable. Like you, I continued to take thyroid even if no effect because at least bloodwork showed it KILLED my TSH completely, and in theory that's good.

So how is your digestion, jyb? Do suffer from any gut issues?

 

[jyb]

I think the high adrenaline stems from my gut because when I take or eat something that results in intestinal burning and a subsequent facial rash, I immediately feel my heart start to race, my face and ears start burning up and my temps rise to around the 99+ degree F mark. As soon as the rash goes down and the intestinal burning subsides, my temps go back down to around 97.8 - 98 degrees.

Did you try cascara? It's inflammatory in the gut.

So how is your digestion, jyb? Do suffer from any gut issues?

I don't suffer from obvious gut issues such as bloating or chronic constipation. I have no problem with milk and feel well on it, at least quality milk. However, conventional foods or restaurants meals could easily cause lethargy, maybe even flu like symptoms. I don't like large meals sitting in my stomach, I don't feel well.

If my health is down and my digestion too, I go to cascara and cyprohept. Pregnenolone also helpful, because it reduces stress a lot, and stress slows down digestion very noticeably. In recent months, I've been satisfied using pregnenolone only.

 

[Jennifer]

Did you try cascara? It's inflammatory in the gut.

Cascara gives me diarrhea even with just one capsule. I'm going to try a diet of potato protein soup, collagen hydrolysate, coconut/sugar water and coconut oil for about a week and see how I do.

I don't suffer from obvious gut issues such as bloating or chronic constipation. I have no problem with milk and feel well on it, at least quality milk. However, conventional foods or restaurants meals could easily cause lethargy, maybe even flu like symptoms. I don't like large meals sitting in my stomach, I don't feel well.

Hmm! Yeah, so maybe your digestion is slower and that's why you don't feel well with larger meals.

Wait, I just thought of something! How's your cholesterol? Here's a Ray quote from an email exchange where he talks about possible reasons for not being affected by thyroid supplementation:

"If your cholesterol is above 200, and the thyroid supplements didn't warm you up, it's possible that something is interfering with your steroid synthesis, which might be a deficiency of something like vitamin A, or interference from something like iron or carotene. Have you tried a supplement of pregnenolone or DHEA? Were any other hormones, such as prolactin, measured? If you are taking the aspirin regularly, you should make sure to get vitamin K, from kale, liver, or a supplement. Anemia, like cold feet, is a common sign of low thyroid function." -Ray Peat

Are you aware of any deficiencies you may have or anything possibly interfering with your steroid synthesis?

 

[jyb]

Cascara gives me diarrhea even with just one capsule. I'm going to try a diet of potato protein soup, collagen hydrolysate, coconut/sugar water and coconut oil for about a week and see how I do.

A capsule could excessive, the aim is good transit but not the point of diarrhea. I think one should expect good regular transit, possibly a little bit more liquid than usual because its effect on water absorption is part of its anti-inflammatory effect. I think tip of teaspoon for the cascara I have is enough.

Are you aware of any deficiencies you may have or anything possibly interfering with your steroid synthesis?

Well, yes maybe but that's too broad of a diagnosis. I think my recent experience with pregnenolone has confirmed I was deficient in steroids, but that was expected from suboptimal thyroid function. Maybe in a few months using it, improved health will mean I will start to respond to thyroid - occasionally I do a new experiment see if it changes.

 

[Jennifer]

A capsule could excessive, the aim is good transit but not the point of diarrhea. I think one should expect good regular transit, possibly a little bit more liquid than usual because its effect on water absorption is part of its anti-inflammatory effect. I think tip of teaspoon for the cascara I have is enough.

Okay, I'll try just a tip next time. Thanks!

Well, yes maybe but that's too broad of a diagnosis. I think my recent experience with pregnenolone has confirmed I was deficient in steroids, but that was expected from suboptimal thyroid function. Maybe in a few months using it, improved health will mean I will start to respond to thyroid - occasionally I do a new experiment see if it changes.

Right! I too would expect you to be deficient in steroidal hormones. But why your thyroid isn't functioning properly is the bigger question. If it is because of adrenaline, why is adrenaline in the driver's seat? I imagine you have reduced stress in your life or else you would already know where your problem lies.

Maybe, like me, it's your gut, but it doesn't really sound like you have much issue there if you stay away from poor quality milk, conventional foods or restaurant meals.

You say you don't tolerate large meals, but do you get plenty of calories throughout the day? I'm assuming you do since you mentioned having a lot of the same symptoms as me and weight loss on high calories was one of them. But I thought I'd ask since I've noticed a trend in recent years where guys (especially late teens, early 20's) are eating so few calories now and/or fasting in order to get ripped and once their health has deteriorated, many of them turn to new diet approaches to fix their issues, but neglect to raise their calories, which in my opinion, was one of the biggest factors in the first place.

The only other thing I can think of is a deficiency of some kind, besides thyroid and anti-stress hormones, affecting the adrenals. We know salt is important for them, but what about vitamin C? Northern Native Americans have been known to eat the adrenal glands of animals because they're a rich source of vitamin C for them. I would think our adrenal glands are a very rich source of it also and would require plenty of vitamin C to properly function. A deficiency would surely stress them out, would it not?

 

[jyb]

Right! I too would expect you to be deficient in steroidal hormones. But why your thyroid isn't functioning properly is the bigger question. If it is because of adrenaline, why is adrenaline in the driver's seat? [...]

The only other thing I can think of is a deficiency of some kind, besides thyroid and anti-stress hormones, affecting the adrenals. We know salt is important for them, but what about vitamin C? Northern Native Americans have been known to eat the adrenal glands of animals because they're a rich source of vitamin C for them. I would think our adrenal glands are a very rich source of it also and would require plenty of vitamin C to properly function. A deficiency would surely stress them out, would it not?

Gut is not necessarily the source of stress, it goes both ways. In my experience, I would even say it seems to be the other way round a bit more often. I have seen gut slow down very noticeably as a response of other sources of stress - in that situation the gut is an associated problem but not the underlying cause. Of course once the gut slows down, expect a negative feedback as toxins build up. I have found pregnenolone effective at reducing stress, to the point that digestion is less slowed down.

 

[Jennifer]

Gut is not necessarily the source of stress, it goes both ways. In my experience, I would even say it seems to be the other way round a bit more often. I have seen gut slow down very noticeably as a response of other sources of stress - in that situation the gut is an associated problem but not the underlying cause. Of course once the gut slows down, expect a negative feedback as toxins build up. I have found pregnenolone effective at reducing stress, to the point that digestion is less slowed down.

Right! It very much is a chicken or egg scenario and then the vicious cycle. I think in my case though, my issues do stem from my gut because it's been an issue for me since birth. As a baby, I was given Canadian mint water on a daily basis to help relieve the chronic constipation I suffered from. And given that I've been tested for everything under the sun and the only thing that keeps coming back abnormal is my severe gut inflammation, I can only assume at this point that it's my gut that's the source of my problems.

Hmm...I've never taken pregnenolone so I have no experience with it. I do take progest-e, but it hasn't help with my digestion. I'm sort of surprised by that because I figured its anti-inflamitory action would help with my gut inflammation.

Well, jyb, I hope you continue to see improvement with pregnenolone so that you start getting positive effects from thyroid supplementation. And hopefully I will too by healing up my gut for good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for us! :)

 

[lindsay]

Jennifer - have you ever tried an antibiotic? I'm guessing your doctor would be willing to prescribe one for you if you have such bad gut issues. My gut issues are also terrible and have been for like 15 years, but they've been so much better after the round of antibiotics I took following appendicitis. I haven't taken antibiotics in years, so I was quite curious as to how I would react to them. I'm contemplating asking my doctor for a prescription for when I travel, but I don't know how often is safe to take them.

 

[Jennifer]

Jennifer - have you ever tried an antibiotic? I'm guessing your doctor would be willing to prescribe one for you if you have such bad gut issues. My gut issues are also terrible and have been for like 15 years, but they've been so much better after the round of antibiotics I took following appendicitis. I haven't taken antibiotics in years, so I was quite curious as to how I would react to them. I'm contemplating asking my doctor for a prescription for when I travel, but I don't know how often is safe to take them.

Ooh...perfect timing, Lindsay!

I've been contemplating, since yesterday, finishing off the two rounds of antibiotics I have left from a previous go at them. My doctor put me on Neomycin and I did REALLY well on it the first round. My brain fog and facial rash disappeared within 30 minutes of taking the first dose. My eyesight, which had gotten very blurry the worse the brain fog got, cleared up considerably. My digestion was awesome! And the most shocking improvement, my knees stopped snapping. My knees have snapped ever since my early teens. But I continued to eat starches and whole fruit while taking it and I probably should have temporarily cut them out because after the first round, all my old symptoms came back and so I stopped taking the Neo after the second round.

I've been drinking George's distilled aloe juice and cascara tea and my gut has been free of pain since last night, but my brain fog is getting bad again and so is my vision.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the antibiotics, Lindsay. You've helped me make my decision. :)

 

[lindsay]

Anytime :) I feel like it really helped with my estrogen dominance too - I had a bunch of fat gain that just kind of smoothed out and disappeared, despite my eating tons of high fat dairy this past week (although, I had no appetite for a week, so my body is kind of all over). RP mentioned antibiotics being used as a fertility treatment at clinics in some studies. Gut health is so important and so finicky. I think if there is one thing I would be willing to use as regular treatment, it would be antibiotics, but I'm not sure how often is considered okay. I think RP probably uses them, but I'd have to ask. I've kept taking one small cascara pill since the antibiotics have finished because I want things to stay good. My digestion has been super fast. Like when I first started taking thyroid. Thyroid also worked for some time, but kind of leveled off after awhile. Digestion has forever been my one issue - all because of that stupid Zelnorm I took in college. Ruined me.

 

[Jennifer]

I feel like it really helped with my estrogen dominance too - I had a bunch of fat gain that just kind of smoothed out and disappeared, despite my eating tons of high fat dairy this past week (although, I had no appetite for a week, so my body is kind of all over).

That makes sense that it helped with your estrogen dominance since Ray has said the estrogen can come from the gut and I would think that endotoxin and bad bacteria are a factor in that. And I've read at least one quote where Ray mentions antibiotics being helpful.

You know, when I was put on a WAPF inspired diet after my injury, I drank an insane amount of full-fat raw milk. Most of my diet was the raw milk due to massive cravings for it and I went from 80 pounds to 95 and pretty much all of it was muscle (my body fat % was frequently measured) and I couldn't get my weight to budge until I refed. I also remember my skin became insanely soft. Even softer than when I did fruitarianism. I was able to go all winter without using any coconut oil. Not bad for New England's harsh winters.

May I ask, what antibiotic were you taking?

 

[tomisonbottom]

I feel like it really helped with my estrogen dominance too - I had a bunch of fat gain that just kind of smoothed out and disappeared, despite my eating tons of high fat dairy this past week (although, I had no appetite for a week, so my body is kind of all over).

That makes sense that it helped with your estrogen dominance since Ray has said the estrogen can come from the gut and I would think that endotoxin and bad bacteria are a factor in that. And I've read at least one quote where Ray mentions antibiotics being helpful.

You know, when I was put on a WAPF inspired diet after my injury, I drank an insane amount of full-fat raw milk. Most of my diet was the raw milk due to massive cravings for it and I went from 80 pounds to 95 and pretty much all of it was muscle (my body fat % was frequently measured) and I couldn't get my weight to budge until I refed. I also remember my skin became insanely soft. Even softer than when I did fruitarianism. I was able to go all winter without using any coconut oil. Not bad for New England's harsh winters.

May I ask, what antibiotic were you taking?

Hi, I've striggled with really dry skin this winter too.....how much milk were you drinking when you say massive amounts? Did you mix gelatin in with it? And/or sugar?
Thanks!

 

[Jennifer]

I feel like it really helped with my estrogen dominance too - I had a bunch of fat gain that just kind of smoothed out and disappeared, despite my eating tons of high fat dairy this past week (although, I had no appetite for a week, so my body is kind of all over).

That makes sense that it helped with your estrogen dominance since Ray has said the estrogen can come from the gut and I would think that endotoxin and bad bacteria are a factor in that. And I've read at least one quote where Ray mentions antibiotics being helpful.

You know, when I was put on a WAPF inspired diet after my injury, I drank an insane amount of full-fat raw milk. Most of my diet was the raw milk due to massive cravings for it and I went from 80 pounds to 95 and pretty much all of it was muscle (my body fat % was frequently measured) and I couldn't get my weight to budge until I refed. I also remember my skin became insanely soft. Even softer than when I did fruitarianism. I was able to go all winter without using any coconut oil. Not bad for New England's harsh winters.

May I ask, what antibiotic were you taking?

Hi, I've striggled with really dry skin this winter too.....how much milk were you drinking when you say massive amounts? Did you mix gelatin in with it? And/or sugar?
Thanks!

For context, my doctor at the time, put me on a low-carb (WAPF) diet so my only source of sugar came from the raw milk and small amounts of sweet red peppers. And since you mentioned in your PM about building muscle, just to give you context, I had been doing some extreme mountain climbing every weekend for at least 5 years prior so I was mostly muscle with less then 4% body fat to begin with. I was also put on estrogen at the time.

I was drinking close to a gallon of milk a day or a bit less when I had cheese. The milk was full-fat from 100% grass-fed cows. The cheese was a full-fat raw cheese made by a Mennonite family. There were days when I ate a pound of it. I also drank two full bowls of bone broth daily, I'd say at least 16 ounces worth and supplemented with Green Pasture's high vitamin butter oil, which improved my skins softness even more.

Another thing that really helped/helps is this ayate washcloth made from agave fibers:

http://www.iherb.com/Flower-Valley-Ayat ... loth/15557

It leaves my skin super silky by sloughing off any dry skin and this allows for any oil you use to sink in extremely well. I make sure to moisturizer my entire body immediately after my bath/shower and ever since doing these two things, my skin in winter stays just as soft as my skin in summer. I use unrefined coconut oil currently, but I have cocoa butter I'm going to use this winter because it's thicker and smells delicious.

Hope this helps! :)

 

[Blossom]

That washcloth is wonderful for exfoliating!