The Many Ways To Get Carbon Dioxide - Do Effects Differ And How?

yerrag

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You can get carbon dioxide externally from different sources - thru carbonated water, thru bicarbonate intake (sodium bicarb, potassium bicarb, magnesium bicarbonate, calcium bicarbonate), thru carbogen ventilation, and thru a carbon dioxide bath.

Since I could now make my own carbonated water, I've also making my own magnesium bicarbonate. I've also got Steve's Carbogenetics carbogen breathing machine (discontinued) setup and have used it once. And I've also got his carbon dioxide therapy bath, although I have to get another tank fitted to it to use it.

So, yes, I've got the 4 ways to increase CO2 with me.

I'd like to run a few experiments with these to see how much all these have in common, as well as how much they differ, as to their effects on us. I'll be using myself as a test subject, and although I wish there could be more, it's harder and less practical to do. So, my conclusions would be limited to my own context, but even then, it will still be helpful as a starting point.

What prompted me to think about this experiment is my experience with improving my CO2 retention using Buteyko. When I increased my control pause with Buteyko, which indicated higher CO2 retention, I notice that it increased my blood pressure (again, this is my context. Others in my Buteyko class did not experience what I did). In contrast, when I ingest sodium bicarbonate, my blood pressure went down. Consistently.

It appears that increasing CO2 by controlled breathing and increasing sodium bicarbonate intake does not have the same effect on me, as far as blood pressure is concerned. I wonder, in this instance, if it's because increasing serum CO2 lowers serum pH while increasing bicarbonate increases serum pH. Or it's just because increasing serum CO2 has an immediate effect on increasing tissue oxygenation, and this is causing my body to react in a way that wants to limit the increased tissue oxygenation (again, I have high blood pressure due to lead toxicity, and this is my context).

Nevertheless, the ways we can get CO2 increased differ in method, and I'd like to know if each of these methods would have its own unique effects. With the carbogen breathing machine, it is thru increased respiratory intake of carbon dioxide. With the carbon dioxide therapy bath, it is thru own skin pores. With carbonated water, it is thru our digestive system in the form of dissolved carbon dioxide in water. With sodium bicarbonate, it is thru our digestive system in the form of bicarbonate.

Having a better idea of these different ways would answer questions as to which method is more appropriate for any given situation. One may ask "If I can increase CO2 by simply ingesting bicarbonates, or by intake of carbonated water, why would I need the expense of a breathing machine, or the expense and trouble of a carbon dioxide therapy bath?

A cost-effective way is what I would like to find out. One way may be least costly, but will it be significantly helpful? And another way that is more costly might just be overkill.

If you have any suggestions as to how you'd go about a study like this, would very much appreciate your suggestions.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Carbon Dioxide—Induced Anxiety

Increases in cortisol, anxiety etc..
Thanks for the link. It isn't consistent with what Ray Peat's conclusions on carbon dioxide though. At first I was going to say that the context is for patients with panic disorders who experienced worse symptoms at 5% CO2, but it also says healthy subjects also experienced symptoms with CO2 at 7.5%. Since I can only see the abstract, I can't critique the methodology.

I would ask what their definition of a healthy subject is. And what the actual context is of the test subjects with panic disorders.

I would be willing to test myself at these CO2 levels for 3 hours to see if I experience the same results.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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High co2 lowers blood pressure. Maybe you were not doing buteyko correctly?
I may be doing it wrong if I did it now. But I was doing it right as I was being coached by a Buteyko instructor. He could not explain why I'm not responding to longer control pauses with lower blood pressure. A different context would be the only ezplanation.
 
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I may be doing it wrong if I did it now. But I was doing it right as I was being coached by a Buteyko instructor. He could not explain why I'm not responding to longer control pauses with lower blood pressure. A different context would be the only ezplanation.

I’ve seen this issue with my coaching students. Cortisone is needed for a short while.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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I’ve seen this issue with my coaching students. Cortisone is needed for a short while.
I wouldn't dare try that. When I was having high blood pressure, I had occasion to use hydrocortisone for my keloid. My dermatologist and I confirmed that the hydrocortisone would increase my blood pressure.
 
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I wouldn't dare try that. When I was having high blood pressure, I had occasion to use hydrocortisone for my keloid. My dermatologist and I confirmed that the hydrocortisone would increase my blood pressure.

yeah, maybe so. It's a small amount though. I think the dose is important. It is the only thing that works when you do Buteyko and your CO2 doesn't fall, or even rises. In terms of prednisone, maybe 5mg twice a day for a few weeks.

Peat has written this is sometimes necessary.
 

Elron

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Short term, raising C02 can increase blood pressure. Over the long term, it should stabilize to a lower one.
 
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yerrag

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Short term, raising C02 can increase blood pressure. Over the long term, it should stabilize to a lower one.
How have you experienced this?
 
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yerrag

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Not directly. I just remember ray peat saying that. Especially regarding bag breathing, I would imagine buteyko is the same
Is there an indication of timeframe?
 

YourUniverse

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You can get carbon dioxide externally from different sources - thru carbonated water, thru bicarbonate intake (sodium bicarb, potassium bicarb, magnesium bicarbonate, calcium bicarbonate), thru carbogen ventilation, and thru a carbon dioxide bath.

Since I could now make my own carbonated water, I've also making my own magnesium bicarbonate. I've also got Steve's Carbogenetics carbogen breathing machine (discontinued) setup and have used it once. And I've also got his carbon dioxide therapy bath, although I have to get another tank fitted to it to use it.

So, yes, I've got the 4 ways to increase CO2 with me.

Mr. Yerrag, do you still use a breathing machine?

Aside, do you know where a person could get one? An old, outspoken forum member "vision-of-strength" talked about using a co2 machine - would you know if they are available?
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Mr. Yerrag, do you still use a breathing machine?

Aside, do you know where a person could get one? An old, outspoken forum member "vision-of-strength" talked about using a co2 machine - would you know if they are available?

I have one, which I bought for my mom, but I ended being the one to use it as she passed away before I got the unit. I only used it once, just to test it. I think it could be useful for people who can benefit from increased CO2 in the blood, to increase tissue oxygenation. Just not me for now, as anything I do now to increase tissue oxygenation gets met with increased blood pressure. So, until I manage to successfully chelate lead from my kidneys, I won't be able to use it. In case you're wondering why, it's because the kidneys constrict the arterioles of the kidney when increased tissue oxygenation antagonize the production of uric acid, which needs hypoxic conditions to be produced, and uric acid is needed as an antioxidant to the quench the free radicals generated by the lead toxin.

My unit came from Steve of Carbogenetics. I bought the unit when Steve said it was going to be discontinued, as he has been advised by his lawyer that misuse of the unit could lead to lawsuits. So he's stopped making it. The unit I have combines CO2 with air, with the percent CO2 being controlled from an app. I brought through a breathing mask, which came with the unit, and which can be bought from hospital/medical supplies stores.

Since I made my own carbonating unit which works like a Sodastream unit, I feel that I could just as easily benefit from drinking carbonated water as I would using the Carbogen breathing device. Certainly I could breathe in more CO2 using the breathing unit, but drinking carbonated water would be safer, as the CO2 intake is limited by how much water you can drink, and this would keep you from overdosing on it.
 

tara

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talked about using a co2 machine
I think he said he used something like a paintball canister of CO2 and a regulator.
At first I was going to say that the context is for patients with panic disorders who experienced worse symptoms at 5% CO2, but it also says healthy subjects also experienced symptoms with CO2 at 7.5%. Since I can only see the abstract, I can't critique the methodology.
7.5% CO2 is very high compared with normal atmospheric CO2. 5% is pretty high too. I imagine quite a lot of people who have chronic unaware hyperventilation would take time to adapt. I thought there was a CO2 set point mechanism of some sort, which can be gradually retrained. Trying to suddenly push the CO2 level much higher than current set point might be perceived as stressful?
 

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Since I made my own carbonating unit which works like a Sodastream unit, I feel that I could just as easily benefit from drinking carbonated water as I would using the Carbogen breathing device. Certainly I could breathe in more CO2 using the breathing unit, but drinking carbonated water would be safer, as the CO2 intake is limited by how much water you can drink, and this would keep you from overdosing on it.
How does your carbonating unit compare to a sodastream, is it more potent? Is a sodastream potent enough that consistent use would increase blood CO2?
 

ddjd

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bicarb of soda seems like a very quick and effective method
 
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yerrag

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How does your carbonating unit compare to a sodastream, is it more potent? Is a sodastream potent enough that consistent use would increase blood CO2?
It does the same thing. I haven't really tried taking soda water on a daily basis, for the same reason I gave earlier. But I think it would increase blood CO2 if done consistently. CO2 is highly soluble in water, the more so with very cold water. When you drop menthos into a quart bottle of soda pop, you will be amazed at the force in which the resulting froth comes out. That just goes to show how much CO2 is dissolved in soda.

bicarb of soda seems like a very quick and effective method

I'm not so sure about that. There's still a distinction between CO2 and bicarbonate. While each can convert to the other, how readily it does so depends a lot on the state of acid-base balance in the blood and ecf. Excess CO2 can be readily exhaled through the lungs (in well functioning lungs) while excess bicarbonates are excreted slowly by the kidneys thru urine, and the correction takes as long as 3 days (for a well functioning kidney).
 
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YourUniverse

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I'm not so sure about that. There's still a distinction between CO2 and bicarbonate. While each can convert to the other, how readily it does so depends a lot on the state of acid-base balance in the blood and ecf. Excess CO2 can be readily exhaled through the lungs (in well functioning lungs) while excess bicarbonates are excreted slowly by the kidneys thru urine, and the correction takes as long as 3 days (for a well functioning kidney).
By your definition, it makes bicarbonate sound superior - if I burp out the excess CO2 quickly, what does it do me?
 
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