The Lowdown On Fat

TNT

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What does Ray Peat say about fat? I know he's very anti-PUFA, but beyond that, I'm wondering:

-- How much fat does he recommend eating?
-- What types does he recommend (and why)?
-- What about Omega 3's from fish (not supplements)?
-- What about Omega 9's?
 

michael94

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im allergic to fat

- to raise meabolic rat
- saturated and ocassionally monounsaturated for taste reason
- he thinks their toxic
- Like mead acid, I dont know how one gets them in the diet but he says they get made when one is pufa deficient and that theyre of benefit
 

Elephanto

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1. I haven't seen a total fat intake recommendation but he has adviced 1 teaspoon of coconut oil with a meal. He also gives a lot of importance to switching from fat oxidation to glucose oxidation, so an high fat intake doesn't fit with this.
2. Saturated fats (coconut oil, palmitic, stearic) because they increase metabolism, suppress the stress reactions and have anti-cancer properties (both at low doses), and are not prone to oxidation, while avoiding Omega 6s which have opposite effects on all these parameters and are also immunosuppressive, anti-thyroid, inflammatory, endotoxin-potentiating, inhibit cellular respiration and directly promote Estrogen. MUFAs slightly decrease metabolism but he has called Olive Oil one of the "only vegetable oils that are really safe".
3. Omega 3s are estrogenic, immunosupressive, can promote cancer and environmental contaminants are stored in the fat of fishes. He wrote that their effects are pro-inflammatory and toxic compared to a fat-free diet or a saturated fats-based one.
4. Omega 9s can be synthesized by the human body. Mead Acid like michael mentioned, it can also be obtained from meat cartilage. There's also Oleic Acid but a study posted on this forum shows that its accumulation causes Alzheimer's. Peat wrote about Oleic Acid that it has anti-serotonin activity and along with saturated fats protects the endothelial lining of blood vessels. It also increases glucuronidation (detoxification of Estrogen) which is inhibited by PUFAs.
 

michael94

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1. I haven't seen a total fat intake recommendation but he has adviced 1 teaspoon of coconut oil with a meal. He also gives a lot of importance to switching from fat oxidation to glucose oxidation, so an high fat intake doesn't fit with this.
2. Saturated fats (coconut oil, palmitic, stearic) because they increase metabolism, suppress the stress reactions and have anti-cancer properties (both at low doses), and are not prone to oxidation, while avoiding Omega 6s which have opposite effects on all these parameters and are also immunosuppressive, anti-thyroid, inflammatory, endotoxin-potentiating, inhibit cellular respiration and directly promote Estrogen. MUFAs slightly decrease metabolism but he has called Olive Oil one of the "only vegetable oils that are really safe".
3. Omega 3s are estrogenic, immunosupressive, can promote cancer and environmental contaminants are stored in the fat of fishes. He wrote that their effects are pro-inflammatory and toxic compared to a fat-free diet or a saturated fats-based one.
4. Omega 9s can be synthesized from the human body. Mead Acid like michael mentioned, it can also be obtained from meat cartilage. There's also Oleic Acid but a study posted on this forum shows that its accumulation causes Alzheimer's. Peat wrote about Oleic Acid that it has anti-serotonin activity and along with saturated fats protects the endothelial lining of blood vessels. It also increases glucuronidation (detoxification of Estrogen).

this may be slightly unrelated I have a hypothetical for you

100g pufa at one "meal"
or 100g pufa spread over many meals in a week

which do you think would cause less harm
 

Elephanto

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this may be slightly unrelated I have a hypothetical for you

100g pufa at one "meal"
or 100g pufa spread over many meals in a week

which do you think would cause less harm

Probably spreading it. On many levels it would have similar effects but the one 100g meal would take such a strong hit at once on the systems previously mentioned that it creates a condition for all kinds of degeneration to happen, whereas spreading it allows time to rebalance.
 
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TNT

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Thanks, y'all. What about raw grass-fed butter?
 

raypeatclips

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Peat says up to 50 percent of calories could be from fat if it's hydrogenated coconut oil, but sources such as lamb, beef, unhydrogenated coconut oil still have PUFA levels that could cause issues down the line if these were used to 50 percent of the diet. He has said 33/33/33 of the macros could be good. People tolerate higher and lower levels of fat than 33 percent of calories from fat so experiment yourself.
 
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TNT

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Wow, thanks, @raypeatclips . I'm surprised to hear this. I thought hydrogenated oils were bad? And where does one get hydrogenated coconut oil?

I'm also surprised to hear him saying that that much fat is OK. So why do people refer to him as someone who recommends a high-carb/low-fat diet?
 

raypeatclips

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Wow, thanks, @raypeatclips . I'm surprised to hear this. I thought hydrogenated oils were bad? And where does one get hydrogenated coconut oil?

I'm also surprised to hear him saying that that much fat is OK. So why do people refer to him as someone who recommends a high-carb/low-fat diet?

Search the forum, I am sure people have found sources of hydrogenated coconut oil. I don't think its absolutely necessary to eat hydrogenated coconut oil though.

Surprised to hear him say how much fat is okay?
 

Sobieski

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Some people fare well on low fat, others don't. Experiment for yourself, just keep PUFA low whatever your path. Peat ate high fat up until his 60's i believe, he now advocates less due to glucose metabolism but if you're healthy then higher fat can be used successfully. 'Perceive, think. act'.
 

Sobieski

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It's that in 'general' increased calories from fat also result in increased insulin resistance (bad) and free fatty acids (also bad), amongst other things. Glucose is the most efficient fuel and the ability to oxidise it is not something that should be compromised, which is what happens with higher fat. Some people who are very muscular and physically active probably benefit from a more balanced macro nutrient intake, as they will be more insulin sensitive (and can possibly eat more fat without causing harm to glucose metabolism) and also require the fat for the synthesis of protective hormones, which are lower in people who are active beyond their means. Also, muscle burns fat at rest (I believe, though am open to being proven wrong). Sedentary people more than likely are going to have to pick one fuel or the other without gaining weight and causing problems. PUFA, in anyone, is going to cause problems.
 
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TNT

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Thank you, @Sobieski and @raypeatclips . This is a big dilemma for me. After over a decade on low-carb (and at times, keto), I switched to an 80/10/10 (actually, more like 75/12/13) fruitarian diet for about 8 months last year. I felt amazing. But my hair loss got really bad, so I started adding back in more fat and protein, and the hair loss has just continued getting worse. I suspect insulin has something to do with it, and I'm trying to figure out the right amount (and types) of fat to eat. I'm currently at about 25% fat and not sure if I should increase it or decrease it. What I do know for sure is that when I reduce my carbs too much, I feel like ***t.
 

YourUniverse

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"good nutrition is much more than simply getting the basic nutrients" -RP

Fat is helpful in slowing down digestion, absorption of fat solubles, and blocking some of the harmful effects of PUFA
 

Elephanto

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Thank you, @Sobieski and @raypeatclips . This is a big dilemma for me. After over a decade on low-carb (and at times, keto), I switched to an 80/10/10 (actually, more like 75/12/13) fruitarian diet for about 8 months last year. I felt amazing. But my hair loss got really bad, so I started adding back in more fat and protein, and the hair loss has just continued getting worse. I suspect insulin has something to do with it, and I'm trying to figure out the right amount (and types) of fat to eat. I'm currently at about 25% fat and not sure if I should increase it or decrease it. What I do know for sure is that when I reduce my carbs too much, I feel like ***t.
Could be from the negative effects of high fructose intake seen in hundreds of studies where starch as a control doesn't have this effect. Have you tried using for instance, white basmati rice as the bulk source of your carbs and using fruits/honey as a dessert ? Fructose has beneficial properties that can be obtained at low dose. Don't know, you gotta experiment. High sugar wasn't good for my hair either.
 

Elephanto

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It's that in 'general' increased calories from fat also result in increased insulin resistance (bad) and free fatty acids (also bad), amongst other things. Glucose is the most efficient fuel and the ability to oxidise it is not something that should be compromised, which is what happens with higher fat. Some people who are very muscular and physically active probably benefit from a more balanced macro nutrient intake, as they will be more insulin sensitive (and can possibly eat more fat without causing harm to glucose metabolism) and also require the fat for the synthesis of protective hormones, which are lower in people who are active beyond their means. Also, muscle burns fat at rest (I believe, though am open to being proven wrong). Sedentary people more than likely are going to have to pick one fuel or the other without gaining weight and causing problems. PUFA, in anyone, is going to cause problems.

Good post but one thing that is overestimated in "broscience" communities is the requirement of fat for androgens production. From a study I had calculated the treshold for optimal testosterone production (where eating more fat doesn't produce benefits) and it was around 25g at my weight (54kg). Restricting PUFAs intake is also much more significant to increase protective hormones, so the requirement for saturated fats lessen when PUFAs intake is close to none.
 

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