The Health Cost Of Lockdowns- Death Tolls From Increased Suicide, Blood Shortages, And Other Effects

[Waremu]

Absolutely insane. You can take precautions sure, even I am. We don't know how this "new" virus is going to act, but acting as though we have to be 6 ft away from everyone including family members is absolutely insane.

That's your subjective opinion. Just because you do not value taking any precautions to stop the spread because you do not take it seriously, like some nut jobs on here who think every pandemic is a "hoax" do, doesn't mean others do not. Many people who mocked and made fun of others getting sick didn't take it seriously until they got sick as well. And no, those are not even the guidelines. People are asked to keep six feet or so away from others in public areas. That isn't as necessary if people are living together and are quarantining together.

Plus this is not the first time we've had bad flu and cold years and yet here we are "sheltering in place".

Thats a silly argument. We have had many 'light pandemics', but we also have major pandemics every century or so and we are currently long over do for one. And we don't know exactly which one will come out of the blue and be the next major pandemic that kills tens of millions. People in charge of public health cannot afford to not take every pandemic seriously because they do not know when the next Spanish Flu or Bubonic plague will be, etc. But again, the total deaths is just one major problem. The economic harm also cannot be afforded by such events as these.

Flattening the curve just burdens the hospitals for longer period of time thus completely exhausting employees and resources. There is no proof quarantining the entire world will stop this virus. It will be there once you come out of your house again. So good luck being fearful for just right now, you won't be able to go back to your normal life ever again if you really fear these viruses.

Now you're just talking nonsense. There is plenty of 'proof.' Some countries which took the most extreme measures were able to lower the spread significantly. South Korea has tested more than 270,000 people, which amounts to more than 5200 tests per million inhabitants—more than any other country except tiny Bahrain.
The country seems to have greatly slowed its epidemic and it has done so without locking down entire cities or taking some of the other measures that China had to take. They took it seriously and their hospitals, while greatly impacted, are not overburdened near the degree that they would have been or that Italy or some other countries are. Now contrast that to Italy, which did not take the pandemic as seriously and, as a result, whose hospital system is possibly on the verge of a collapse in many parts because they have a shortage of doctors and supplies and are resorting to choosing to treat younger people and leave some elderly to die. Both events played out very differently for both countries because of the actions taken and not taken. Spain is also in a similar situation to Italy due to their leaders incompetence. The pandemic has still hit South Koreas hospitals hard, but they are doing better than Italy and Spain at the moment because they took action.

If you don't want to be 'fearful', then go ahead and not take it seriously. I don't feel sorry for those who get sick because they chose to. But don't act like your actions won't possibly lead to spreading it to a person with health issues or an elderly person and them getting critically ill or dying. Having to wear a mask when I go out, keep my distance, and not go to non-essential places until it blows over for a few months isn't the end of the world and really doesn't bother me all that much. It's mainly people who are out of work that are most affected, but other than that, the following the guidelines for a few months isn't a big deal to me and is pretty reasonable. People are blowing it way more out of proportion than they need to. But again, not working is probably the biggest legitimate concern for those who cannot work from home, etc.

Models show that just a small increase in sick patients is enough to overwhelm the hospitals. Hospitals are well aware of what their capacity is to handle the total number of sick patients, so to 'flatten the curve' would mean less sick patients going in at the same period of time, so yes, it would be better, mathematically, to have any amount of less sick people. And yes, once again, while far from prefect, we do have proof that it helps with our Italy vs South Korea example. Even far less healthcare workers are getting sick there compared to Western countries. Quarantining is necessary in dropping the R0 value that is naturally so high, but it must be done in conjunction to medications that can be readily dispersed and testing.

 

[tankasnowgod]

@sugarbabe would you mind sharing your criticism of the "flattening the curve" idea? I was extremely skeptical of it once I started hearing it everywhere, was a bit eerie and reminiscent of mass marketing campaigns than anything rational since it's being repeated by everyone who seemingly became epidemiologists overnight.

The idea is that it doesn't even stop any infections or deaths, it simply redistributes them to other months (so, instead of say, 40,000 all getting sick in April, you can have 10,000 sick in April, May, June, July). Sacrifice every industry so hospitals can catch up.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/pdf/community_mitigation-sm.pdf

"Each of the models generally suggest that a combination of targeted antiviral medications and NPIs can delay and flatten the epidemic peak, but the degree to which they reduce the overall size of the epidemic varies. Delay of the epidemic peak is critically important because it allows additional time for vaccine development and antiviral production. However, these models are not validated with empiric data and are subject to many limitations.20"

Coronavirus: What is 'flattening the curve,' and will it work? | Live Science

"Health officials take for granted that COVID-19 will continue to infect millions of people around the world over the coming weeks and months. However, as the outbreak in Italy shows, the rate at which a population becomes infected makes all the difference in whether there are enough hospital beds (and doctors, and resources) to treat the sick.

In epidemiology, the idea of slowing a virus' spread so that fewer people need to seek treatment at any given time is known as "flattening the curve." It explains why so many countries are implementing "social distancing" guidelines — including a "shelter in place" order that affects 6.7 million people in Northern California, even though COVID-19 outbreaks there might not yet seem severe."

Untold economic destruction, when basically setting up some mobile hospitals and recruiting some extra nursing staff would have sufficed.

 

[InChristAlone]

Fatality rate in South Korea was 0.9% that's the entire population including the elderly, so the actual percentage for under 50 is probably more like 0.02% fatality rate. Random sampling testing there shows a lot of people tested positive for antibodies to the virus that DID NOT show up to the hospital.

The Oxford model says there's a gigantic number of people that have already been infected by the virus, we'd need to do antibody tests to see how big it really is (NOT forced testing I don't agree with that). And if the numbers are very big then it's not that big of deal and that most of our population is creating immunity to it (The UK predicted to be 60%). There will be a peak it will be very high and sharp but then it will come down and it won't be an 18 month problem it will be a crisis of a few months and a tiny percentage of people that become very ill. And even though the number seems very large because the infected population is so large, we've already done measures to help lighten the load off hospitals but the virus has already spread too far too fast and it cannot be stopped there is nothing that can slow it down dramatically. Most of us are fine, it didn't just get here in March, it's been here all winter and most described just a really bad cold. 60% of the population may already be immune.

@Waremu Stop suggesting I am going to harm anyone. I have been home for the last 3 weeks with my family who I already homeschool and who have not been sick at all this winter or spring. You are bordering on harassment.

 

[InChristAlone]

Also there's no such thing as "healthy person is spreading infectious disease". You may not feel super bad, but there will be at least a couple symptoms to be able to have a high enough viral load to spread to anyone else. I'm so sick of the misinformation about this.

 

[charlie]

Coronavirus job losses could total 47 million, unemployment rate may hit 32%, Fed estimates

 

[InChristAlone]

Coronavirus job losses could total 47 million, unemployment rate may hit 32%, Fed estimates

Yeah especially in tourist industries. Thousands of jobs lost in just one city.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

On top of the things you mentioned, I would add drastic increases in substance abuse, domestic violence (increasing both homicides/suicides), drug dealing, prostitution, mental health outbreaks, petty crime and so on. Over the last month radio stations in major Eastern cities have been reporting increases in liquor sales of 70-80%, which led to emergency orders to close down liquor stores in the most problematic areas. As if that would do any good! People buy their "quarantine sips" elsewhere.
When the concentration of people per square foot increases and is maintained higher for a certain amount of time - bad things start to happen. Yes, even when those people are related.

If i we're them I would use a silly virus as scapegoat to shut down the economy, later blaming that shut down on the worst depression in living memory. A perfect ploy to keep attention away from the worlds biggest debt bubble and asset price inflation from central banks inflated. I would also use the virus as an excuse to roll out martial law/police/and retired vets and mass amounts of medical equipment to deal with the injury's and deaths coming from the shootouts....Oh Wait. Thats exactly what they're doing.

Mass impoverishment of the bottom 50% of America, who will be slung into debt peonage starting tomorrow once they miss their rent/credit card payments. Will lead to much much worse crime than petty theft.

I bet the next 2-3 weeks the riots will start, infact rent strikes are starting in St.Louis and other places. Hell No wonder they kicked out the tax date out three months, fearing a tax strike.


Random Smuck: "Dude that corona virus wiped out my familys wealth, and economic future, I lost my job, house, and now since theirs no tax revenue and small business/commerical real estate we cannot afford public schools. Don't worry though my daughter can learn through Khan academy online, It had absoulelty zero to do with neoliberal economics and decades of asset price inflation and stagnant wages. It's cool though I get my monthly debased currency check direct deposited into my account of $1,000 that I cycle through to walmart/amazon as they are the only corporations left standing, and all that open commerical real estate left plenty of room for small densly packed section 9 goverment housing, man life is great for us proles"

This is the most conservative thing I have seen on CNBC, I was thinking closer to 75 Million

 

[Deleted member 5487]

The social isolation is what is going to affect many people the hardest, this situation is unlike any other economic recession in recent history. People cannot travel or reach out to friends or family either.

The funny thing is you think this is temporary. Have you ever heard of tyranny

 

[InChristAlone]

The funny thing is you think this is temporary. Have you ever heard of tyranny

For our sake I hope you are wrong, but this lockdown was so easy for them I'm thinking you are not. People are begging for government control. Begging to shut down businesses for not complying, begging to shut down state to state travel. This was like easy peasy. It is going to be absolutely devastating.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

I'm not afraid of the virus at all, but I feel really messed up psychologically. I figured it was loneliness and boredom, but now I feel like there is this really nasty energy about. I know, it's woo woo, but I still feel it.

Fear is the currency of tryranny. Of course you feel stressed and isolated. We all do, Its programmed.
Humans are social animals, we are intentionally being degraded into mere serfs and filthy peasants.

I cannot get a haircut, my hair looks horrible. I cannot see the dentist my teeth are bad. I cannot see friends or talk with family. My chance of mating is greatly diminished. I cannot find a job, or afford my rent. I am a slave.

The Road to Serfdom - Wikipedia

"n the book, Hayek "[warns] of the danger of tyranny that inevitably results from government control of economic decision-making through central planning."[6] He further argues that the abandonment of individualism and classical liberalism inevitably leads to a loss of freedom, the creation of an oppressive society, the tyranny of a dictator, and the serfdom of the individual. Hayek challenged the view among British Marxists that fascism (including National Socialism) was a capitalist reaction against socialism. He argued that fascism, National Socialism and socialism had common roots in central economic planning and empowering the state over the individual."

 

[Waremu]

Fatality rate in South Korea was 0.9% that's the entire population including the elderly, so the actual percentage for under 50 is probably more like 0.02% fatality rate. Random sampling testing there shows a lot of people tested positive for antibodies to the virus that DID NOT show up to the hospital.

You're proving my point. Although the fatality maybe higher than even stated, it is lower compared to the aforementioned countries which didn't take the same measures South Korea took. As they saw what happened in China, they rushed to test people and quarantine and didn't wait until the last minute, hence the lower fatality rate, compared to Italy or Spain. Italy has a case fatality rate of 10% last I checked. So you're comparing apples to oranges here with South Korea (a country that did the right thing as opposed to Italy). So we have some decent data out of these Asian countries that slowed the spread, contrary to what the clowns at the CDC falsely claim, that such measures do not either work or have a known/much effect. Even China, which has the most questionable data, like tried to soften their numbers, and the death troll is much higher due to a number of factors, like many poor who have no access to the hospital dying before they began recording data, and were not record at all, tens of millions of government-controlled chat and phone accounts being deleted, etc. But again, I am more concerned with the Hospital system anyway.

​

The Oxford model says there's a gigantic number of people that have already been infected by the virus, we'd need to do antibody tests to see how big it really is (NOT forced testing I don't agree with that). And if the numbers are very big then it's not that big of deal and that most of our population is creating immunity to it (The UK predicted to be 60%). There will be a peak it will be very high and sharp but then it will come down and it won't be an 18 month problem it will be a crisis of a few months and a tiny percentage of people that become very ill.

Their models is not evidence that a large percentage or most of the UK population already have the infection.

Actually, that is still largely just speculation. A few models claimed that the mortality rate is much lower because most people were never tested, and I believe Haidut has mentioned this, but there are a few issues with that conclusion, particualry with the numerator and denominator with the calculations.

Some say or speculate the virus has already spread to a large percentage of the population, but I don't think that is the case and in fact I think that it has yet to spread to a significant percentage of the population for the reasons above, etc. Many people do not understand exponential growth and compounding, it seems, and this thing I believe is just getting started. We have not yet reached peak immunity. But anyway, a few problems with that line of reasoning..

So either undetected infections are much larger than stated, or much lower than stated, because the testing has been so bad, thereby inflating or deflating the fatality percentage. This means we do not know what the epidemic curves truly are. But that in of itself does not prove that the total number of cases are larger or smaller, thus we cannot jump to a conclusion that the fatality rate is this or that. These are some of the same errors the UK piece that you mention made. They assumed the fatality rate was lower based on this faulty assumption and built it into their models. You must have correct inputs!

The Oxford study can't be correct that as much as half the population of the UK already is infected because we know how the math works insofar as the doubling time of the virus, with regards to it's exponential growth. We have good enough data on South Korea and large enough sample size to have a good idea of how the doubling time works and while it is very infectious and spreads very fast, the doubling time isn't that great to allow for such a large discrepancy. And IF half the UK population already had the virus, you would have seen similar doubling time reflected in the South Korea data, but you do not. You would have seen far more cases. But you do not. Not even close.

Of the 364,000 total tests South Korea ran, 341,000 were negative. 9241 were confirmed positive. So if the virus behaves anything similar to the one in UK, which we know it does, then based on the South Korea data, it is very unlikely that half the UK population is already infected. If half the UK population were infected, you would have seen far more cases in the South Korean data. But you do not see anything even remotely close to it. This also suggests that this pandemic is just getting started. But there are so many other errors in that Oxford study. This also goes back to the numerator/denominator issue in their calculations, how they are overestimating D and underestimating N.

I also find it funny that, for people like you who believe in the anti-vaccine conspiracies' and what not, and a general mistrust of the government/powers that be (I have trust issues with them too), you are so quick to read a government piece and not critically examine it and instead believe it. Why now is the UK government and WHO all the sudden trustworthy when it comes to reporting death rates (which they likely would have a bias towards covering up to not make it look worse than it is, if anything), but not trusting what they say on other issues such as vaccines? A little double standard-sheepish behavior, no? I am actually quite surprised at the number of people within the 'Peat' community who believe all kinds of conspiracies, yet are so quick to believe the government and not question what their true motive is, if there is any bias, and if so, what they would have to gain or lose in how they report the fatality rate. Kind of odd.

One such paper that makes the claim that the number of cases are greatly understated, due to UK/Stanford/Oxford calculations, makes a few mistakes in their conclusions/calculations. Let's apply these to some good cases we have where we can gather enough data from, which they also use and make some assumptions on, and even overlook a number of things:

1) The Princess Diamond ship example. They say the average age of those on a cruise is not a representative example of those getting the virus --- this much is true. It may be our best example because the ship was our most contained cohort and we can track them from the beginning of the case to resolution. And so the death rate was 1.4%. However, one thing to point out is that there are still many crucially unresolved cases from that ship. 115 active cases last I checked, to be exact. That is still A LOT of active cases and are well over a month old. And if more people in those critical condition cases die, the "low 1.4% case fatality rate" number goes up. (They say likely less than 1% when adjusted for average age, etc..). So they are speculating that the case fatality rate is under 1% when we still have 115 cases -- any of which can lead to more expirations thus increasing the overall rate.

2) They mention that as the infection goes into a more generalized population (which has a broader age range), it will go into lower age ranging, affecting more younger people, resulting in less deaths. This is also true. And the thing that would support this would be South Korea. Let's look at South Korea, as of a few days ago (numbers have likely gone up by now, but not by much):

Over 126 new deaths out of 9000+ total cases, last checked...

However, out of cases that have resolved, 126 out of 3730.

That gets us to a pretty reasonable case fatality rate of 3.2%. And South Korea as of right now is running the gold standard on data/testing.

(Updated numbers as of today now have 9786 total cases, 5408 recovered cases, 4216 active cases. 162 total deaths (of which, 4 are new). So still around the 3% mark.)

3) Now the argument you made, and which is made by the paper, is that it is not the real case fatality rate because there are a lot people who have it and are asymptomatic or have not yet caught it. And that is a fair point -- we do not know where this will yet settle out, for that reason.

But then one or I could also argue that there are also a lot of people dying who are not being recorded as having been part of this data. So you see, it can work both ways. And some information in China suggests the death rate may be much higher than they're admitting to --- for example, over 21 million user phone accounts gone, possibly suggesting a higher death toll, etc. But again, as mentioned at the beginning, the South Korean data suggests that the cases are no where near as high as is overstated by the paper, so there is that as well.

21 million drop in China’s mobile users suggests higher COVID-19 death toll: Report

So anyone who died before the state started testing for Cov-19, or anyone who has died who has not tested positive for Cov-19 is NOT going to be recorded as contributing to the death rate.


So that claim as well fails to withstand the test of time and is therefore not a strong argument, thus negating the claims made by them/WHO. Absence of evidence is not evidence. There may be many more cases, but also many more deaths, so we really can only go by the best data we have.

4) An argument in favor of lockdown is that it allows time to flatten the curve so that drugs/vaccines can be developed, taking strain off the healthcare system. Do we know this works? Yes. Again, Asian countries mentioned above already showed this works. To ignore this and continue to claim that flattening the curve doesn't work at all, is just not true. if we can flatten it out until we get medication out to everyone then that is a massive success that buys us time.

5) The widely shared WSJ article uses much of the same faulty reasoning:

Opinion | Is the Coronavirus as Deadly as They Say?

The small Italy Town "VO"-case is used by the authors to 'prove' that the death rate is lower. They claim:

"As of March 6th, all 3,000 people of Vo were tested, and 90 were positive, a prevalence of 2.7%. Applying that prevalence to the whole province (population 955,000), which had 198 reported cases, suggests there were actually 26,000 infections at that time. That's more than 130-fold the number of actual reported cases. Since Italy's case fatality rate of 8%is estimated using the confirmed cases, the real fatality rate could in fact be closer to 0.06%."

Okay, time to tear that apart.

They also say:

" An epidemic seen on Jan.1 implies that by March 9 about six million people in the US would have been infected. As of March 23, according to the CDC and Prevention, there were 499 Covid-19 deaths in the US. If our surmise of six million cases is accurate, thats a mortality rate of 0.01%, assuming a two week lag between infection and death. This is one-tenth of the flu mortality rate of 0.1%. Such a low death rate would be cause for optimism."

If the flu mortality rate is 0.1% and this virus has a mortality rate of about one-tenth that, then this thing ought to be one-tenth as demanding on our hospitals as the flu....right. Morgues shouldn't overflow (like they are in parts of NYC and Europe).

Well, the reality is when you view most-to all of the video footage of the hospitals in Spain, Italy, China, you can see that the number of people at the hospitals sick are well above one-tenth that of the flu. Now, some there are not sick with the virus, one could say, but many of them have been relocated to other places and mobile hospitals to make room for the Cov-19 infected patients, so we can safely assume a large enough percentage of them, big enough to be more than one-tenth demanding as flu patients, are indeed there for the Cov-19 virus and infected. You do not see anything like what is in those videos during flu season. And by now, most of those non-infected patients are moved out of the hospitals to mobile units and ships. This for example recently happened in NYC where they put non-infected hospital patients on a hospital ship and kept the hospital building only for the Cov-19 infected patients.

Secondly, we can go to other data, like all the currently active cases in the world. As of a few days ago, the total active cases were at 321,242 and about 4% of them are seriously ill or critical. There is no way flu is close to that. And closed cases is at 133,700. We have resolution in the closed cases numbers. Out of resolved cases, 85% recovered or discharged (113,153), 15% of them (20,247) resulted in deaths. This is not like the flu at all.​

And even though the number seems very large because the infected population is so large, we've already done measures to help lighten the load off hospitals but the virus has already spread too far too fast and it cannot be stopped there is nothing that can slow it down dramatically. Most of us are fine, it didn't just get here in March, it's been here all winter and most described just a really bad cold. 60% of the population may already be immune.

No, it is still spreading because a large percentage of people (many whom think they're immune to it and giving it to others and that it's just like the seasonal flu) are not following the basic quarantine guidelines and because it has a high infection rate, it negates much of what is being done to lower the R0 value. And no, the virus has not spread to the majority of the population already. Not even half of the population has it, because we can calculate the rate of growth from the data we have on South Korea. We are at the early stages and the Hospitals are already breaking down. This should worry you, if anything. We are likely to see an utter collapse of the US hospital system in the coming months if no medication is mass produced to treat and cure at least a large percentage of critically ill patients.

@Waremu Stop suggesting I am going to harm anyone. I have been home for the last 3 weeks with my family who I already homeschool and who have not been sick at all this winter or spring. You are bordering on harassment.

1) I never assumed you would harm anyone. I insinuated that if you do spread it then it's on you. Can you not read? I never assumed you were spreading it. (Maybe you assumed it because you want us to know you are not following CDC guidelines? )



2) No one is harassing you. Nice job playing boy who cried wolf. I can pretend that you harassed me too too:

I was told that the fear is justified because the virus is so contagious. Heart disease isn't contagious so no one talks about those deaths. So now we have millions of people becoming germophobes. Wonderful. Where is @Amazoniac when we need him to discuss germ theory

You're claiming I am crazy and all who follow basic CDC guidelines are "germaphobes." You're bordering on harassment!!
​

 

[Deleted member 5487]

For our sake I hope you are wrong, but this lockdown was so easy for them I'm thinking you are not. People are begging for government control. Begging to shut down businesses for not complying, begging to shut down state to state travel. This was like easy peasy. It is going to be absolutely devastating.

They have us, it was way too easy.

It is not tempory at all, even if if the veil is "lifted" the programming and psychological damage is done. We are animals, tax slaves, even indentured debt servants.
You may be able to travel but it will be very costly and require quarantines, you will have to plan for months and months.
You may be able to visit friends and family, but must keep your distance from your elders.
You may visit the store but you must wait in line..

Nothing will be the same.

 

[achillea]

Professor Pietro Vernazza MD; Chief Physician of Infectious Disease St. Gallen Central Hospital.
“ found 82-90% of all infections occurred without noticing the infection”

 

[Regina]

They have us, it was way too easy.

It is not tempory at all, even if if the veil is "lifted" the programming and psychological damage is done. We are animals, tax slaves, even indentured debt servants.
You may be able to travel but it will be very costly and require quarantines, you will have to plan for months and months.
You may be able to visit friends and family, but must keep your distance from your elders.
You may visit the store but you must wait in line..

Nothing will be the same.

They have us, it was way too easy.

It is not tempory at all, even if if the veil is "lifted" the programming and psychological damage is done. We are animals, tax slaves, even indentured debt servants.
You may be able to travel but it will be very costly and require quarantines, you will have to plan for months and months.
You may be able to visit friends and family, but must keep your distance from your elders.
You may visit the store but you must wait in line..

Nothing will be the same.

Yes. I agree the damage is done.
Even in the magical thinking that all the commercial retail, cute shops and cafes will open back up (they won't) with cheery proprietors and workers, the people already have brain damage from this. As Dr. Peats says, "structure and function are interdependent."
Chicago had been a city with a highly educated populace; hard-working and polite, friendly and cheerful.
This is gone. When I walk around during the "social distancing", I try to smile to everyone I pass. Because that is what Chicagoans have always done.
Not only do people not smile back, they do not sneer either. They are grey rocking with zero response. Literally, like I do not exist. And it is everybody.
Dissociative and anhedonic. They were probably already tired and getting up and going to work was difficult but generally done with some cheer and acceptance. Now, I think they were quietly happy for the time off to stay in their pajamas til noon and dutifully put #StayTheFckHome# memes on their FB page. They loved being told of their virtue to stay home. But that is giving way to no longer bothering with any niceties at all. Other people are, like you say, filthy peasants to veer away from. As if, all their previous smiles and social niceties were a mask that has been ripped off.
There will be no return to "normal" or how it was.

 

[Lejeboca]

Fear is the currency of tryranny. Of course you feel stressed and isolated. We all do, Its programmed.
Humans are social animals, we are intentionally being degraded into mere serfs and filthy peasants.

I cannot get a haircut, my hair looks horrible. I cannot see the dentist my teeth are bad. I cannot see friends or talk with family. My chance of mating is greatly diminished. I cannot find a job, or afford my rent. I am a slave.

The Road to Serfdom - Wikipedia

"n the book, Hayek "[warns] of the danger of tyranny that inevitably results from government control of economic decision-making through central planning."[6] He further argues that the abandonment of individualism and classical liberalism inevitably leads to a loss of freedom, the creation of an oppressive society, the tyranny of a dictator, and the serfdom of the individual. Hayek challenged the view among British Marxists that fascism (including National Socialism) was a capitalist reaction against socialism. He argued that fascism, National Socialism and socialism had common roots in central economic planning and empowering the state over the individual."

I want to revive Thomas Jefferson from the grave back into presidents !
Note that he was pro-vax himself, I believe, but never imposed anything on anyone as long as that creature "didn't pick his pocket or didn't break his leg".

 

[foodandtheworld]

Thank you @tankasnowgod for the explanation.
One of the other depressing observations from this lockdown that your post @Regina reminds me of is the learned helplessness and social and cultural isolation leading to this very bubble-like existence. It's like it's unfathomable and impossible that there is any other way of dealing with this. My friend across the sea sends me pictures of her visiting mountains, going to nice restaurants, and life is pretty much as normal and free as it can be. And in that country, nothing terrible has happened, no apocalypse has arrived from not implementing house imprisonment. But this isn't covered in the media, and as the media is people's only window out of their current jail cells, it's like no other way of living is possible. I think at a certain point after this, people refuse to even want to hear it, because it would suggest they were jailed for nothing and were manipulated at such a large scale.

 

[haidut]

As to some of @haidut's points, Buzzfeed talking about the lockdown effect on the Opiod Epidemic- The Coronavirus Pandemic Has Made The Opioid Epidemic Even Worse

Here is another one in support of my statements.
For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity | Sian Norris
"...the police force has reported at 20.9% increase in domestic violence incidents.’"

And this is after just 2 weeks of lockdown. Imagine what would happen in another month.

 

[haidut]

Mass impoverishment of the bottom 50% of America, who will be slung into debt peonage starting tomorrow once they miss their rent/credit card payments. Will lead to much much worse crime than petty theft.

Looks like MSM is not entirely senile.
Pandemic-Related Unemployment and Shutdowns Are a Recipe for Social Unrest

 

[Jing]

That's your subjective opinion. Just because you do not value taking any precautions to stop the spread because you do not take it seriously, like some nut jobs on here who think every pandemic is a "hoax" do, doesn't mean others do not. Many people who mocked and made fun of others getting sick didn't take it seriously until they got sick as well. And no, those are not even the guidelines. People are asked to keep six feet or so away from others in public areas. That isn't as necessary if people are living together and are quarantining together.

Why do you want lockdown and social distancing now? Why have you not called for this in the past for other deaths?

What about the police stopping and fining people? Why are they allowed to come close to you? But you are not allowed to meet a friend?

 

[Goat-e]

Yes. I agree the damage is done.
Even in the magical thinking that all the commercial retail, cute shops and cafes will open back up (they won't) with cheery proprietors and workers, the people already have brain damage from this. As Dr. Peats says, "structure and function are interdependent."
Chicago had been a city with a highly educated populace; hard-working and polite, friendly and cheerful.
This is gone. When I walk around during the "social distancing", I try to smile to everyone I pass. Because that is what Chicagoans have always done.
Not only do people not smile back, they do not sneer either. They are grey rocking with zero response. Literally, like I do not exist. And it is everybody.
Dissociative and anhedonic. They were probably already tired and getting up and going to work was difficult but generally done with some cheer and acceptance. Now, I think they were quietly happy for the time off to stay in their pajamas til noon and dutifully put #StayTheFckHome# memes on their FB page. They loved being told of their virtue to stay home. But that is giving way to no longer bothering with any niceties at all. Other people are, like you say, filthy peasants to veer away from. As if, all their previous smiles and social niceties were a mask that has been ripped off.
There will be no return to "normal" or how it was.

It's the ultimate 'divide and rule'. Make people suspicious of each other and you have no effective form of opposition to authority...