The gut is full of DHT! Whats the connection to hair?

GorillaHead

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This study says that the gut has high levels of the androgen dht. Knowing this how does this connect with parkinsons and androgenic alopecia?

haidut posted studies that low level androgens cause parkinsons. He also posted studies that Parkinson's is caused by gut issues.

both aga and Parkinson's susceptibility share similar genes.

the answer is close. We are circling it

reading the study my understanding is that if the microbiome travels to the skin or brain dht will rise to protect the body.
Studies have shown that dht is antifungi.

i wonder if drugs like finasteride increase your chances of parkinsons. I remember when i was on finasteride my strength was demolished. Gone. So weak
 
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haidut

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i wonder if drugs like finasteride increase your chances of parkinsons

There is some evidence to suggest that may indeed cause that condition. The downregulation of tyrosine hydroxylase is especially concerning. Even if it does not cause Parkinson (which I am pretty sure it would do if used long enough), the massive drop in dopamine would probably make you feel like a zombie and destroy your sex life, mood, and cognitive function - i.e. basically the signs/symptoms every person with PFS reports.
"...It was found that in adolescent male rats, administration of finasteride at doses of 25 and 50 mg/kg for 14 days dose dependently inhibited open‐field behaviors, reduced contents of dopamine and its metabolites in frontal cortex, hippocampus, caudate putamen, nucleus accumbens, and down‐regulated tyrosine hydroxylase mRNA and protein expressions in substantia nigra and ventral tegmental area. However, there was no significant change of these parameters in early developmental rats after finasteride treatment."
 

Iceman2016

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It would be interesting to see the effects of low dose DHT in a liquid medium ingested orally for individuals who are experiencing gut (dopamine?) issues as part of their PFS symptoms.

Assuming there isn't a lot of intestinal absorbtion, the local effects could maybe provide some benefits?
 

cupofcoffee

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There is some evidence to suggest that may indeed cause that condition. The downregulation of tyrosine hydroxylase is especially concerning. Even if it does not cause Parkinson (which I am pretty sure it would do if used long enough), the massive drop in dopamine would probably make you feel like a zombie and destroy your sex life, mood, and cognitive function - i.e. basically the signs/symptoms every person with PFS reports.
"...It was found that in adolescent male rats, administration of finasteride at doses of 25 and 50 mg/kg for 14 days dose dependently inhibited open‐field behaviors, reduced contents of dopamine and its metabolites in frontal cortex, hippocampus, caudate putamen, nucleus accumbens, and down‐regulated tyrosine hydroxylase mRNA and protein expressions in substantia nigra and ventral tegmental area. However, there was no significant change of these parameters in early developmental rats after finasteride treatment."
From the conclusion of the article
imply finasteride as a potential therapeutic option for neuropsychiatric disorders associated with hyperactivities of dopaminergic system and androgen.
They always try to find a positive?‍♂️
 

haidut

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It would be interesting to see the effects of low dose DHT in a liquid medium ingested orally for individuals who are experiencing gut (dopamine?) issues as part of their PFS symptoms.

Assuming there isn't a lot of intestinal absorbtion, the local effects could maybe provide some benefits?

Most of that can be achieved by dissolving the steroid in tocopherols and ingesting. Multiple studies have shown that tocopherols do not absorb at once but stay in the gut for up to 2 days (within the intestinal wall) and a portion of the wall-attached amount absorbs into the systemic/portal circulation every time the person ingest a meal with some fat in it. To make it fully gut specific, you can take the steroid with some charcoal, so the steroid will adsorb onto it, and that way the steroid will pass through the entire digestive track mostly unabsorbed.
 

haidut

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From the conclusion of the article

They always try to find a positive?‍♂️

Reminds me of a that story of a pharma executive where he was told the new drug the company was working on was effective but as a side effect it was giving cancer to most patients and they quickly died. The pharma CEO said something along the lines of "Perfect, submit it to FDA for approval! Instead telling FDA it causes cancer, submit a document that says it makes people appreciate the fragility of life".
 
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GorillaHead

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Do any of you yall know how the gut influences the skin? Is it bacterial migration? Or immune response built up in the skin.

think about this if dht is high in the gut. How does dht get high in the skin?
 

golder

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Most of that can be achieved by dissolving the steroid in tocopherols and ingesting. Multiple studies have shown that tocopherols do not absorb at once but stay in the gut for up to 2 days (within the intestinal wall) and a portion of the wall-attached amount absorbs into the systemic/portal circulation every time the person ingest a meal with some fat in it. To make it fully gut specific, you can take the steroid with some charcoal, so the steroid will adsorb onto it, and that way the steroid will pass through the entire digestive track mostly unabsorbed.
Love this Haidut. I noticed Peat gave the charcoal idea a very slight nod of approval when you briefly mentioned it with Danny the other day (which is good from a man that doesn’t enthuse very much). Not to derail, but I really want to give the charcoal mixture combination a try. What substances do you think would worthwhile to help heal a once dysbiotic/abused/sluggish intestine? I’m thinking a small amount of tocopherol dissolved: DHT, T, DHEA, Progesterone, DPPC, DSPC. Can you think of anything else that would have a therapeutic effect here? Thank you!
 

Iceman2016

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Most of that can be achieved by dissolving the steroid in tocopherols and ingesting. Multiple studies have shown that tocopherols do not absorb at once but stay in the gut for up to 2 days (within the intestinal wall) and a portion of the wall-attached amount absorbs into the systemic/portal circulation every time the person ingest a meal with some fat in it. To make it fully gut specific, you can take the steroid with some charcoal, so the steroid will adsorb onto it, and that way the steroid will pass through the entire digestive track mostly unabsorbed.

Thanks for the reply to this.

Yes, dissolving in tocopherol seems like a good option. The charcoal idea is also good. I was thinking a somewhat higher volume of liquid (30ml?) to try to get as much contact coverage of the GI tract walls as possible. Maybe it doesn't make much difference.
 

haidut

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Love this Haidut. I noticed Peat gave the charcoal idea a very slight nod of approval when you briefly mentioned it with Danny the other day (which is good from a man that doesn’t enthuse very much). Not to derail, but I really want to give the charcoal mixture combination a try. What substances do you think would worthwhile to help heal a once dysbiotic/abused/sluggish intestine? I’m thinking a small amount of tocopherol dissolved: DHT, T, DHEA, Progesterone, DPPC, DSPC. Can you think of anything else that would have a therapeutic effect here? Thank you!

Well, really anything antiseptic in general. I personally like the MCT oil mixed with charcoal as those fatty acids have strong antibacterial AND antifungal effects and if they can be prevented from absorption so the entire GI tract is exposed to them they should similar to the antibiotic rifaximin.

So, a tablespoon of MCT oil taken with a few grams of charcoal should work quite well to control endotoxemia and the steroids with charcoal (or carrot salad) can be used to heal any damage in the intestinal wall or musculature.
 

haidut

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Thanks for the reply to this.

Yes, dissolving in tocopherol seems like a good option. The charcoal idea is also good. I was thinking a somewhat higher volume of liquid (30ml?) to try to get as much contact coverage of the GI tract walls as possible. Maybe it doesn't make much difference.

The amount of charcoal would depend on the amount of steroid administered. Since most steroids are used in mg amounts there is probably no need to take more than a capsule or two of a charcoal product for a total amount of 500mg-1g. If something like MCT oil is used, which is usually ingested in 10g+ doses, then higher doses of charcoal would be needed for optimal mixture.
 
T

TheBeard

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The amount of charcoal would depend on the amount of steroid administered. Since most steroids are used in mg amounts there is probably no need to take more than a capsule or two of a charcoal product for a total amount of 500mg-1g. If something like MCT oil is used, which is usually ingested in 10g+ doses, then higher doses of charcoal would be needed for optimal mixture.

Thank you!

You gave me a new experimentation idea: I will mix 15ml coconut oil + 2g of charcoal + 20mg testosterone raw base powder and drink the solution twice a day.

I never took testosterone orally, I'm curious to see how it behaves compared to transdermal.

If I understand correctly, you are saying the oil will act like an ester an slow the absorbtion of the steroid?
 
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I've been dealing with terrible gut / estrogen issues lately. Bloating. Water retention. Feeling like I have a huge rock in my gut and walking around like I'm pregnant all day long. ******* terrible.

I started taking 12.5 mg of iodine several days ago and since then I completely forgot about the problem. Gut feels 90% normal, light, no bloating there, jaw looks more defined, honestly amazing. The downside is I'm losing hair like nobody's business. Like seriously receding like a ****...

Iodine seems to be great at clearing out excess estrogen or it does something to that extent anyway. And also no LOW estrogen symptoms - joints feel perfectly fine and libido is there etc.
 

PolishSun

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I've been dealing with terrible gut / estrogen issues lately. Bloating. Water retention. Feeling like I have a huge rock in my gut and walking around like I'm pregnant all day long. ******* terrible.

I started taking 12.5 mg of iodine several days ago and since then I completely forgot about the problem. Gut feels 90% normal, light, no bloating there, jaw looks more defined, honestly amazing. The downside is I'm losing hair like nobody's business. Like seriously receding like a ****...

Iodine seems to be great at clearing out excess estrogen or it does something to that extent anyway. And also no LOW estrogen symptoms - joints feel perfectly fine and libido is there etc.
I totally agree about iodine.
 

JKX

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Do any of you yall know how the gut influences the skin? Is it bacterial migration? Or immune response built up in the skin.

think about this if dht is high in the gut. How does dht get high in the skin?
I think they are one and the same. The skin is your largest organ and a potent generator of sterols. It covers your entirety both externally and internally so it is the gut. As a single organ it would make sense to me that the location of internal skin (gut) issues would result in an equal and opposite external issue. The exact mechanisms I do not know, but I wonder if for example leaky gut occured in an area next to a specific internal organ, this would create localised inflammation within that organ or would the effect be system wide? Or both?

Its interesting that endotoxin and the inflammatory markers associated with it are directly correlated with several external skin disorders. When I had gut issues I used to get mild psoriasis type irritation on the back of my hands. My gut is perfect now as is my external skin. Coincidence? Doubt it.
 
T

TheBeard

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I've been dealing with terrible gut / estrogen issues lately. Bloating. Water retention. Feeling like I have a huge rock in my gut and walking around like I'm pregnant all day long. ******* terrible.

I started taking 12.5 mg of iodine several days ago and since then I completely forgot about the problem. Gut feels 90% normal, light, no bloating there, jaw looks more defined, honestly amazing. The downside is I'm losing hair like nobody's business. Like seriously receding like a ****...

Iodine seems to be great at clearing out excess estrogen or it does something to that extent anyway. And also no LOW estrogen symptoms - joints feel perfectly fine and libido is there etc.

Nothing to do with estrogen.

It's an antiseptic and antibacterial, it's clearing the bacteria overgrowth in your gut, that's all.
 

CLASH

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As far as clearing a dysbiosis:
oregano oil, cinnamon oil, and monolaurin all dissolved in extra virgin coconut oil had a pretty potent effect for me. Also grapefruit seed extract, spore based probiotics for a short course, and serrapeptase seemed to help as well.

Using the oil mixture mentioned above as an enema helped with some colonic dysbiosis as well.


I also bought bacteriophages from Russia and those wiped out a klebsiella pneumonia dysbiosis I had after one course. I confirmed it with stool tests. It was a real hard time procuring the phages. Had to get an MD to sign off to get them through customs, doubt its possible now with all the pandemic stuff.
 
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This study says that the gut has high levels of the androgen dht. Knowing this how does this connect with parkinsons and androgenic alopecia?

haidut posted studies that low level androgens cause parkinsons. He also posted studies that Parkinson's is caused by gut issues.

both aga and Parkinson's susceptibility share similar genes.

the answer is close. We are circling it

reading the study my understanding is that if the microbiome travels to the skin or brain dht will rise to protect the body.
Studies have shown that dht is antifungi.

i wonder if drugs like finasteride increase your chances of parkinsons. I remember when i was on finasteride my strength was demolished. Gone. So weak

There are some studies that have actually looked at using finasteride to aid in Parkinson’s treatment. Link

Also there have been some anecdotes of people having better digestion on finasteride. We know DHT also is a reactive measure to help modulate inflammation. Perhaps a concentration of high free DHT in the gut is pointing towards high localised inflammation. Finasteride will also alter the gut micro biome, possibly even in a Positive way?

Maybe hair growth results can be attributed to Finasteride acting on the gut as well as in the scalp.

Even the carrot salad, with coconut oil (Lauric acid) and carrot (lycopene), which we use to help clean out our intestines, both have in fact inhibitory effects on 5AR.
Could the carrot salad possibly bring benefits through reducing inflammation and therefore reducing DHT? Or maybe the benefits are from reducing 5ar activity itself?
 
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GorillaHead

GorillaHead

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There are some studies that have actually looked at using finasteride to aid in Parkinson’s treatment. Link

Also there have been some anecdotes of people having better digestion on finasteride. We know DHT also is a reactive measure to help modulate inflammation. Perhaps a concentration of high free DHT in the gut is pointing towards high localised inflammation. Finasteride will also alter the gut micro biome, possibly even in a Positive way?

Maybe hair growth results can be attributed to Finasteride acting on the gut as well as in the scalp.

Even the carrot salad, with coconut oil (Lauric acid) and carrot (lycopene), which we use to help clean out our intestines, both have in fact inhibitory effects on 5AR.
Could the carrot salad possibly bring benefits through reducing inflammation and therefore reducing DHT? Or maybe the benefits are from reducing 5ar activity itself?

I think dht offers a form of protection. I def believe its apart of an immune response.

however if the imuunne response is overly aggressive which happens often with inflamation, then id wager thats how finasteride could be beneficial. I dont know the study you are refering to for finasteride and parkinsons being helpful but id bet the study found it helped the patients conditions assuming its in vivo and thats the only type of study u should even consider.

but we know finassteride is def not a cure and as u age hormone development does begin to drop off.
 
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Nothing to do with estrogen.

It's an antiseptic and antibacterial, it's clearing the bacteria overgrowth in your gut, that's all.

If I were you, I wouldn't be so convinced I had it all figured out.

No other antibacterial does this, and I've also never heard of antibacterials reducing water weight and gyno symptoms.

Here you can see what happens to estrogens during Lugol's supplementation:

Capture.JPG
(https://agemed.org/wp-content/uploads/WRIGHT-Cobalt-Iodine-Effects-on-Estrogen-Metabolism.pdf)

Numerous other examples in there.
 

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