The Great Vitamin D Debate with Georgi Dinkov, Danny Roddy, Kate Deering & Matt Blackburn

charlie

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Very timely, thank you. :hattip
 

RealNeat

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This wasn't really a debate. Matt has almost zero valid points and just insists on things because he hates to be wrong before he's ready to be wrong. I don't understand why he was even chosen for this because he literally just takes the viewpoint of people like Morley Robbins, who would have been a better pick for discussion. I don't trust the guy and his constant supplement pushing and cherry picking. I've had personal encounters with him and tried to keep things civil while having valid debates and discussions, he just blocks people who disagree with him. In the public eye however he seems to be trying to hold up some persona.

I'm glad he got called out multiple times.

I'm not saying vitamin D is safe 100% of the time or that it's better than the sun, however, the anti vitamin D people seem to be hopping on the bandwagon just to show some sort of "hidden" knowledge and "more woke than you" type of ego.

Our bodies capability to produce it's own vitamin D via some internal UV production is something Jack kruse has talked about in the past (probably where Matt got it from since he was taking Jacks ideas and making supplements before taking Peat's ideas and making supplements) and is worth exploring. No wonder Jack Kruse snapped on him for trying to profit off of his info by adopting a reductionist view of "light, water, magnetism" and making a algal DHA supp.

Its unfortunate to have people who will play with people for profit and hide the truth.
 

Mito

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This wasn't really a debate.
It basically came down to 2 fundamental disagreements.

1. Does supplementing Vitamin D increase or decrease parathyroid hormone (PTH)?
I didn’t realize anyone actually questioned this. The medical reference range for serum PTH is based on what 25-hydroxy vitamin D level will maximally suppress PTH based on testing of a large group of people. Danny referenced the paper supporting this. Matt claimed to have a paper suggesting the opposite sometimes happens (D3 supplementing raises PTH).

2. Does 25-hydroxy vitamin D antagonize the Vitamin D receptors (VDR) or does it act as an agonist similar to 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D just at a lower intensity? Matt claimed to have a paper suggesting it’s a antagonist (and thus immunosuppressive). I think Georgi said all the papers he’s seen show it’s an agonist and three of the large chemical suppliers advertise D3 as an agonist of VDR.

The only thing they kind of agreed on is that maybe sunlight or topical D3 supplementing would not raise 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D as much as oral D3 would, but nobody offered any solid evidence for that assertion.

A follow up show would be interesting after Georgi and Danny had a chance to review the papers Matt is referencing.
 

Inaut

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This wasn't really a debate. Matt has almost zero valid points and just insists on things because he hates to be wrong before he's ready to be wrong. I don't understand why he was even chosen for this because he literally just takes the viewpoint of people like Morley Robbins, who would have been a better pick for discussion. I don't trust the guy and his constant supplement pushing and cherry picking. I've had personal encounters with him and tried to keep things civil while having valid debates and discussions, he just blocks people who disagree with him. In the public eye however he seems to be trying to hold up some persona.

I'm glad he got called out multiple times.

I'm not saying vitamin D is safe 100% of the time or that it's better than the sun, however, the anti vitamin D people seem to be hopping on the bandwagon just to show some sort of "hidden" knowledge and "more woke than you" type of ego.

Our bodies capability to produce it's own vitamin D via some internal UV production is something Jack kruse has talked about in the past (probably where Matt got it from since he was taking Jacks ideas and making supplements before taking Peat's ideas and making supplements) and is worth exploring. No wonder Jack Kruse snapped on him for trying to profit off of his info by adopting a reductionist view of "light, water, magnetism" and making a algal DHA supp.

Its unfortunate to have people who will play with people for profit and hide the truth.
Georgi completely dismantled the vitamin d - potassium depletion rat study in like 1 minute...
 

RealNeat

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It basically came down to 2 fundamental disagreements.

1. Does supplementing Vitamin D increase or decrease parathyroid hormone (PTH)?
I didn’t realize anyone actually questioned this. The medical reference range for serum PTH is based on what 25-hydroxy vitamin D level will maximally suppress PTH based on testing of a large group of people. Danny referenced the paper supporting this. Matt claimed to have a paper suggesting the opposite sometimes happens (D3 supplementing raises PTH).

2. Does 25-hydroxy vitamin D antagonize the Vitamin D receptors (VDR) or does it act as an agonist similar to 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D just at a lower intensity? Matt claimed to have a paper suggesting it’s a antagonist (and thus immunosuppressive). I think Georgi said all the papers he’s seen show it’s an agonist and three of the large chemical suppliers advertise D3 as an agonist of VDR.

The only thing they kind of agreed on is that maybe sunlight or topical D3 supplementing would not raise 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D as much as oral D3 would, but nobody offered any solid evidence for that assertion.

A follow up show would be interesting after Georgi and Danny had a chance to review the papers Matt is referencing.
I'm all for exploring those things and don't have the references to dissect it myself. However, Matt should not be the one to represent these views, it's better to go to the source.
 

Andman

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This wasn't really a debate. Matt has almost zero valid points and just insists on things because he hates to be wrong before he's ready to be wrong. I don't understand why he was even chosen for this because he literally just takes the viewpoint of people like Morley Robbins, who would have been a better pick for discussion. I don't trust the guy and his constant supplement pushing and cherry picking. I've had personal encounters with him and tried to keep things civil while having valid debates and discussions, he just blocks people who disagree with him. In the public eye however he seems to be trying to hold up some persona.

I'm glad he got called out multiple times.

I'm not saying vitamin D is safe 100% of the time or that it's better than the sun, however, the anti vitamin D people seem to be hopping on the bandwagon just to show some sort of "hidden" knowledge and "more woke than you" type of ego.

Our bodies capability to produce it's own vitamin D via some internal UV production is something Jack kruse has talked about in the past (probably where Matt got it from since he was taking Jacks ideas and making supplements before taking Peat's ideas and making supplements) and is worth exploring. No wonder Jack Kruse snapped on him for trying to profit off of his info by adopting a reductionist view of "light, water, magnetism" and making a algal DHA supp.

Its unfortunate to have people who will play with people for profit and hide the truth.
thats basically my impression too
 

LLight

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To quote @Rafael Lao Wai:

Peat thinks that activating the vitamin D receptor isn't good. It has effects which are parallel to the parathyroid hormone, such as calcifications of soft tissues and lowered metabolism. Calcitriol, the so called active form of vitamin D, does activate this receptor, but the calcifediol, or 25(OH) vitamin D, doesn't. In an interview, Ray said that this form of vitamin D, which is "inactive", has neurosteroidal effects on the brain and speeds up metabolism( similarly to thyroid). From the little that I know about Marshall, he thinks that calcifediol isn't good, since it antagonizes the vitamin D receptor, therefore vitamin D supplementation( cholecalciferol) isn't indicated, since it will increase calcifediol and decrease calcitriol.

It's not to confront what you said Rafael, but to fully understand what is Ray Peat stance on that topic.

Do you all thing this is the correct position of Ray ?
 

Mito

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Dave Clark

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Let's bring Jim Stephenson Jr. into the debate,. Morley and Jim against Georgi and Danny. Now the playing field is a bit more leveled.
 

charlie

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Let's bring Jim Stephenson Jr. into the debate,. Morley and Jim against Georgi and Danny. Now the playing field is a bit more leveled.
Yes!
 

pauljacob

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Thank you Mito, but I still can't find a download button anywhere. I consider myself a professional downloader :cool:, but I'm stumped here.
 

charlie

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Thank you Mito, but I still can't find a download button anywhere. I consider myself a professional downloader :cool:, but I'm stumped here.
Code:
https://episodes.buzzsprout.com/cmpx2tm32ruwcrunmo381wav9a4t?
Then click on the 3 dots and then download.
 
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To quote @Rafael Lao Wai:



It's not to confront what you said Rafael, but to fully understand what is Ray Peat stance on that topic.

Do you all thing this is the correct position of Ray ?
No problem, LLight. I too want to see if that's what Ray really thinks, so If my understanding is wrong, I'll be glad to correct it.
 

CastorTroy

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Sadly they didn't elaborated more on exposing on getting D from UVB lamp exposing vs oral supplements. My though is the body may auto-regulate better its general D status in all of their forms. Also, other metabolites gets synthesized trough skin on UVB exposure.
 

RealNeat

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I can feel oxalate rich foods quite painfully in my kidneys and have done some research on it. This article says something interesting that may explain certain peoples issue with Vit D.

"The purpose of the calcium citrate is to help release oxalates from your tissues, so when looking for calcium citrate, make sure it does not have vitamin D in it, as the vitamin D encourages absorption of oxalates."

I don't have a reference however.

 

Belsazar

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Let's bring Jim Stephenson Jr. into the debate,. Morley and Jim against Georgi and Danny. Now the playing field is a bit more leveled.
Id like to hear Haidut discussing with Masterjohn.

(And maybe "a great Vitamin A debate" with Grant Genereux)
 

Inaut

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I think Morley should interview Peat. No debate needed. I’m pretty sure he’d be open to that too.
 
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