The Freeze Response At The Root Of "learned" Helplessness

[Amazoniac]

True that. You can just hide under the bed when Dad is shakng his balls.

This is the type of dad that would put the front of his long-sleeved shirt behind his neck to pretend that he's Jax from Mortal Kombat just to entertain his kid..

 

[Xisca]

When I see the Word catarsis, I tend to go away...
I prefer softer methods....

 

[Amazoniac]

I think the reason why retired people decide to take care of pets or even plants is not just to keep the mind busy, it's also to give them back the sense of utility. When you lose it, your existence makes little difference on earth: you could drop dead at any time and nothing would change. That should explain the lone cat caring stereotype as well.

I remember someone on Youtube leaving a comment on a video of a guy that took care of colonies of ants. The commenter summarized quite well: you're essentially after the feeling of empowerment and the sense of playing Zeus.

Since we're on the subject of empowerment, dependency and conditioning, I was reminded of this (which part of it I posted elsewhere, but now the entire part) from Stress in Health and Disease by Hans Selye:

"From what the laboratory and the clinical study of somatic diseases has taught me concerning stress, I have tried to arrive at a code of ethics based not on traditions of our society, inspiration, or blind faith in the infallibility of a particular prophet, religious leader or political doctrine, but on the scientifically verifiable laws that govern the body's reactions in maintaining homeostasis and living in satisfying equilibrium with its surroundings.
In a recent monograph (Stress Without Distress) on the behavioral implications of the stress concept, I attempted to show in more detail how we can adjust our personal reactions to enjoy fully the eustress of success and accomplishment without suffering the distress commonly generated by frustrating friction and purposeless aggressive behavior against our surroundings.
There I tried to illustrate this possibility by an example taken from daily life that shows how diseases can be produced indirectly by inappropriate or excessive adaptive reactions. When you meet a helpless drunk who showers you with insults but is obviously quite unable to do you any harm, nothing will happen if you take a syntoxic attitude—go past and ignore him. However, if you respond catatoxically and fight, or even only prepare to fight, the consequences may be tragic. You will discharge catecholamines that increase blood pressure and pulse rate, while your whole nervous system becomes alarmed and tense in anticipation of combat. If you happen to be a coronary candidate, the result may be a fatal brain hemorrhage or coronary accident. In this case, who is the murderer? The drunk didn't even touch you. This is biologic suicide! Death was caused by choosing the wrong reaction. If, on the other hand, the man who showers you with insults is a homicidal maniac with a dagger in his hand, evidently determined to kill you, you must take an aggressive catatoxic attitude. You must try to disarm him, even at the calculated risk of injury to yourself from the physical accompaniments of the alarm reaction in preparation for a fight. Contrary to common opinion, it is clear that Nature does not always know best, because on both the cellular and the interpersonal level, we do not always recognize what is and what is not worth fighting for.
Yet, it is a biologic law that man—like the lower animals—must fight and work for some goal that he considers worthwhile. We must use our innate capacities to enjoy the eustress of fulfillment. Only through effort, often aggressive egoistic effort, can we maintain our fitness and assure our homeostatic equilibrium with the surrounding society and the inanimate world. To achieve this state, our activities must earn lasting results; the fruits of work must be cumulative and must provide a capital gain to meet future needs. To succeed, we have to accept the scientifically established fact that man has an inescapable natural urge to work egoistically for things that can be stored to strengthen his homeostasis in the unpredictable situations with which life may confront him. These are not instincts we should combat or be ashamed of. We can do nothing about having been built to work, and it is primarily for our own good. Organs that are not used (muscles, bones, even the brain) undergo inactivity atrophy, and every living being looks out first of all for itself. There is no example in Nature of a creature guided exclusively by altruism and the desire to protect others. In fact, a code of universal altruism would be highly immoral, since it would expect others to look out for us more than for themselves.
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a command filled with wisdom, but as originally expressed it is incompatible with biologic laws; no one needs to develop an inferiority complex if he cannot love all his fellow men on command. Neither should we feel guilty because we work for treasures that can be stored to ensure our future homeostasis. Hoarding is a vitally important biologic instinct that we share with animals such as ants, bees, squirrels and beavers.
How can we develop a code of ethics that accepts egoism and working to hoard personal capital as morally correct? That is what I attempted to do in Stress Without Distress and here I shall summarize the main conclusions in the form of three basic guidelines:
(1) Find your own natural stress level. People differ with regard to the amount and kind of work they consider worth doing to meet the exigencies of daily life and to assure their future security and happiness. In this respect, all of us are influenced by hereditary predispositions and the expectations of our society. Only through planned self-analysis can we establish what we really want; too many people suffer all their lives because they are too conservative to risk a radical change and break with traditions.
(2) Altruistic egoism. The selfish hoarding of the goodwill, respect, esteem, support and love of our neighbor is the most efficient way to give vent to our pent-up energy and create enjoyable, beautiful or useful things.
(3) EARN thy neighbor's love. This motto, unlike love on command, is compatible with man's structure, and although it is based on altruistic egoism, it could hardly be attacked as unethical. Who would blame him who wants to assure his own homeostasis and happiness by accumulating the treasure of other people's benevolence towards him? Yet this makes him virtually unassailable, for nobody wants to attack and destroy those upon whom he depends.
These are the three main principles derived from observations on the basic mechanisms that maintain homeostasis in cells, people and entire societies, and which help them face the stressors encountered in their constant fight for survival, security and well-being. Once understood and clearly formulated we can use them best by conscious control.
However, there remain many techniques whose value in improving the quality of life has been established by purely empirical observations. Although they are not directly related to attaining any particular goal, these techniques help us indirectly by improving our physical and mental fitness. Among these, I should mention muscular exercise, hot baths, saunas and a number of psychologic techniques such as Transcendental Meditation, yoga and Zen, whose beneficial effects upon general well-being and mental performance cannot yet be fully explained in somatic terms. With time, such explanation will undoubtedly become possible. Great progress has been made in this direction by demonstrations, for example, of the biochemical changes that accompany the refreshing relaxation induced by such different indirect means of improving well-being as athletics, relaxed meditation, a cup of coffee, or even psychotropic drugs (for example, tranquilizers). Of course, excessive or inappropriate use of any among these can cause considerable damage, and until we know more about their mechanisms of action, indications and contraindications cannot be clearly formulated for each individual in every situation. Yet in view of the great progress being made in our knowledge of the roles played by chemical compounds (catecholamines, 5-HT, hypothalamic neurohumors), it is in this field that we can see the greatest future for the further development of a code of behavior based upon biologic laws."​

 

[Dhair]

I think the reason why retired people decide to take care of pets or even plants is not just to keep the mind busy, it's also to give them back the sense of utility. When you lose it, your existence makes little difference on earth: you could drop dead at any time and nothing would change. That should explain the lone cat caring stereotype as well.

I remember someone on Youtube leaving a comment on a video of a guy that took care of colonies of ants. The commenter summarized quite well: you're essentially after the feeling of empowerment and the sense of playing Zeus.

Since we're on the subject of empowerment, dependency and conditioning, I was reminded of this (which part of it I posted elsewhere, but now the entire part) from Stress in Health and Disease by Hans Selye:

"From what the laboratory and the clinical study of somatic diseases has taught me concerning stress, I have tried to arrive at a code of ethics based not on traditions of our society, inspiration, or blind faith in the infallibility of a particular prophet, religious leader or political doctrine, but on the scientifically verifiable laws that govern the body's reactions in maintaining homeostasis and living in satisfying equilibrium with its surroundings.
In a recent monograph (Stress Without Distress) on the behavioral implications of the stress concept, I attempted to show in more detail how we can adjust our personal reactions to enjoy fully the eustress of success and accomplishment without suffering the distress commonly generated by frustrating friction and purposeless aggressive behavior against our surroundings.
There I tried to illustrate this possibility by an example taken from daily life that shows how diseases can be produced indirectly by inappropriate or excessive adaptive reactions. When you meet a helpless drunk who showers you with insults but is obviously quite unable to do you any harm, nothing will happen if you take a syntoxic attitude—go past and ignore him. However, if you respond catatoxically and fight, or even only prepare to fight, the consequences may be tragic. You will discharge catecholamines that increase blood pressure and pulse rate, while your whole nervous system becomes alarmed and tense in anticipation of combat. If you happen to be a coronary candidate, the result may be a fatal brain hemorrhage or coronary accident. In this case, who is the murderer? The drunk didn't even touch you. This is biologic suicide! Death was caused by choosing the wrong reaction. If, on the other hand, the man who showers you with insults is a homicidal maniac with a dagger in his hand, evidently determined to kill you, you must take an aggressive catatoxic attitude. You must try to disarm him, even at the calculated risk of injury to yourself from the physical accompaniments of the alarm reaction in preparation for a fight. Contrary to common opinion, it is clear that Nature does not always know best, because on both the cellular and the interpersonal level, we do not always recognize what is and what is not worth fighting for.
Yet, it is a biologic law that man—like the lower animals—must fight and work for some goal that he considers worthwhile. We must use our innate capacities to enjoy the eustress of fulfillment. Only through effort, often aggressive egoistic effort, can we maintain our fitness and assure our homeostatic equilibrium with the surrounding society and the inanimate world. To achieve this state, our activities must earn lasting results; the fruits of work must be cumulative and must provide a capital gain to meet future needs. To succeed, we have to accept the scientifically established fact that man has an inescapable natural urge to work egoistically for things that can be stored to strengthen his homeostasis in the unpredictable situations with which life may confront him. These are not instincts we should combat or be ashamed of. We can do nothing about having been built to work, and it is primarily for our own good. Organs that are not used (muscles, bones, even the brain) undergo inactivity atrophy, and every living being looks out first of all for itself. There is no example in Nature of a creature guided exclusively by altruism and the desire to protect others. In fact, a code of universal altruism would be highly immoral, since it would expect others to look out for us more than for themselves.
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a command filled with wisdom, but as originally expressed it is incompatible with biologic laws; no one needs to develop an inferiority complex if he cannot love all his fellow men on command. Neither should we feel guilty because we work for treasures that can be stored to ensure our future homeostasis. Hoarding is a vitally important biologic instinct that we share with animals such as ants, bees, squirrels and beavers.
How can we develop a code of ethics that accepts egoism and working to hoard personal capital as morally correct? That is what I attempted to do in Stress Without Distress and here I shall summarize the main conclusions in the form of three basic guidelines:
(1) Find your own natural stress level. People differ with regard to the amount and kind of work they consider worth doing to meet the exigencies of daily life and to assure their future security and happiness. In this respect, all of us are influenced by hereditary predispositions and the expectations of our society. Only through planned self-analysis can we establish what we really want; too many people suffer all their lives because they are too conservative to risk a radical change and break with traditions.
(2) Altruistic egoism. The selfish hoarding of the goodwill, respect, esteem, support and love of our neighbor is the most efficient way to give vent to our pent-up energy and create enjoyable, beautiful or useful things.
(3) EARN thy neighbor's love. This motto, unlike love on command, is compatible with man's structure, and although it is based on altruistic egoism, it could hardly be attacked as unethical. Who would blame him who wants to assure his own homeostasis and happiness by accumulating the treasure of other people's benevolence towards him? Yet this makes him virtually unassailable, for nobody wants to attack and destroy those upon whom he depends.
These are the three main principles derived from observations on the basic mechanisms that maintain homeostasis in cells, people and entire societies, and which help them face the stressors encountered in their constant fight for survival, security and well-being. Once understood and clearly formulated we can use them best by conscious control.
However, there remain many techniques whose value in improving the quality of life has been established by purely empirical observations. Although they are not directly related to attaining any particular goal, these techniques help us indirectly by improving our physical and mental fitness. Among these, I should mention muscular exercise, hot baths, saunas and a number of psychologic techniques such as Transcendental Meditation, yoga and Zen, whose beneficial effects upon general well-being and mental performance cannot yet be fully explained in somatic terms. With time, such explanation will undoubtedly become possible. Great progress has been made in this direction by demonstrations, for example, of the biochemical changes that accompany the refreshing relaxation induced by such different indirect means of improving well-being as athletics, relaxed meditation, a cup of coffee, or even psychotropic drugs (for example, tranquilizers). Of course, excessive or inappropriate use of any among these can cause considerable damage, and until we know more about their mechanisms of action, indications and contraindications cannot be clearly formulated for each individual in every situation. Yet in view of the great progress being made in our knowledge of the roles played by chemical compounds (catecholamines, 5-HT, hypothalamic neurohumors), it is in this field that we can see the greatest future for the further development of a code of behavior based upon biologic laws."​

I very much like this quote. Thank you for posting this. Have you read the whole book?

 

[Amazoniac]

I very much like this quote. Thank you for posting this. Have you read the whole book?

The parts I found boring I only skimmed. I believe Hans Selye had slaves to collect all those references for him, it's impossible for a human to be that well-read.
Becoming Stress Proof: The History Of Stress With Hans Selye

 

[Amazoniac]

Blossom or charliezord, could you please move this and the following two posts here? Sorry to Dhair, I just assumed that thread was about someone's observations on the subjects of helpless and hopelessness, I didn't know there was a guru asking for help.
__
I think producing babyzords is similar, which is why adolescents and young adults tend to lack interest in them. It's only when this song hits you, that anchors suddenly become sort of footprints in this world #louvre. Writing an impacting book can replace having a baby. Now excuse me that I have to run because there are a bunch of parents coming after me with pacifier knuckles, baby bottle molotov cocktails, and fury.

 

[Blossom]

Blossom or charliezord, could you please move this and the following two posts here?

Is this correct?

 

[Amazoniac]

Is this correct?

Thank you.

 

[griesburner]

@Xisca



"If what you see me doing here makes you cringe and feel uncomfortable, you may need this more than anyone."

wow i just felt the energy coming up only viewing this i think i need to do this realy bad. But i dont have such a soundproof room and dont live alone. Would be too awkward then. Then i will just start shaking my balls in silence.

 

[Xisca]

I think the reason why retired people decide to take care of pets or even plants is not just to keep the mind busy, it's also to give them back the sense of utility. When you lose it, your existence makes little difference on earth: you could drop dead at any time and nothing would change. That should explain the lone cat caring stereotype as well.

I agree that this is part of the reason. The other part is called vagal ventral co-regulation! This is the basis, the first and main reason: Robinson cannot live well without Friday or Wilson!

And thanks for the good ttext.... The part about egoist altruisim is always what I explain to people that their pets do.... they seem deceived, but it is just natural and good. Owners of dogs can hardly accept, though they say yes, that they feel good and are happy themselves when they treat their dog! So they do not give the treat only to please the dog.... Selfsih care is anyway the best because it increses co-regulation of both nervous systems and connexion.

 

[Amazoniac]

I agree that this is part of the reason. The other part is called vagal ventral co-regulation! This is the basis, the first and main reason: Robinson cannot live well without Friday or Wilson!

And thanks for the good ttext.... The part about egoist altruisim is always what I explain to people that their pets do.... they seem deceived, but it is just natural and good. Owners of dogs can hardly accept, though they say yes, that they feel good and are happy themselves when they treat their dog! So they do not give the treat only to please the dog.... Selfsih care is anyway the best because it increses co-regulation of both nervous systems and connexion.

Some gurus prefer dogs owa cats, dogs in general appear more dependent. The only way I can think that could explain the cat caring stereotype is that cats are less expressive and so demand less recirpro- recipor- demand less retribution, they're more comfortable in stillness and so there's no sense of guilt that the person is destroying their cheerfulness.
I knew the mushrooms were too concentrated this time.

 

[Amazoniac]

wow i just felt the energy coming up only viewing this i think i need to do this realy bad. But i dont have such a soundproof room and dont live alone. Would be too awkward then. Then i will just start shaking my balls in silence.

I think those jaw moves at 1:35 are my favorite part.
As Michael would say: de-pression.

 

[Amazoniac]

Suchzord once shared a news link, I don't remember what it was, but a related news there was showing some atrocities in some middle-eastern country. There were corpses laying on the ground, blood everywhere, separated heads, but the only thing blurred on the photos was the genitalia of people. Can you believe it? The main part that caught members' attention in the video above was the shaking balls. And there are people that still discredit Wilhelm Reich..

 

[Xisca]

Some gurus prefer dogs owa cats, dogs in general appear more dependent. The only way I can think that could explain the cat caring stereotype is that cats are less expressive and so demand less recirpro- recipor- demand less retribution, they're more comfortable in stillness and so there's no sense of guilt that the person is destroying their cheerfulness.

Really, with the nice good thinking you have, why not read peter levine? You will love it! There is another reason to explain this. People need different proximity / distance, according to the style of their nervous system. According to your personal boundaries and how they were eventually trespassed, people need different velocity in the approach and the contact. Even dog breeds are different in this respect. I have seen it in therapy with animals.

 

[Amazoniac]

Really, with the nice good thinking you have, why not read peter levine? You will love it! There is another reason to explain this. People need different proximity / distance, according to the style of their nervous system. According to your personal boundaries and how they were eventually trespassed, people need different velocity in the approach and the contact. Even dog breeds are different in this respect. I have seen it in therapy with animals.

You always talk about him and I feel like you're saying interesting things but I have difficulty understanding many of your posts. I seem to get lost on the terminology and mi tensión increases.

 

[Wagner83]

I think those jaw moves at 1:35 are my favorite part.
As Michael would say: de-pression.

He looks like he's doing fine, he's almost 40, in the past I enjoyed his videos in which he gives his thoughts and advice on broader topics other than fitness). He said he's following a mostly ketogenic diet but doesn't like it, he functions better that way, like jamesiv (also into fitness) he adds carbs depending on physical activity.

 

[Xisca]

You always talk about him and I feel like you're saying interesting things but I have difficulty understanding many of your posts. I seem to get lost on the terminology and mi tensión increases.

I would answer any question about terminology for sure! I would talk all from myself and not somebody else, if it was not that people do not believe who does not give any reference.... And he is indeed a big basis about this understanding.

I answer posts when I see that there is a good explanation in the ANS work, as this you said about cats. People who feel invaded by dogs behaviour have certain type of nervous system. After all, this is an organ though it is never said... It can have wounds and be less elastic between activation and relaxation phases. Why know all about digestion and hormones, when this is run by the ANS who gives the orders?

Actually, I have never read any easy stuff about the ANS. It seems to be most understandable only when you have finished the puzzle. Whatever is the missing piece for you, just tell me and ask, after all there are more complicated things here on this forum! I know you have already wise knowledge on the subject, after all, I read you too....

 

[Xisca]

You always talk about him and I feel like you're saying interesting things but I have difficulty understanding many of your posts. I seem to get lost on the terminology and mi tensión increases.

A post cannot be long, but if you have some time, this page is nice for this:
111: Interview With Irene Lyon | 7 Health

 

[Amazoniac]

A post cannot be long, but if you have some time, this page is nice for this:
111: Interview With Irene Lyon | 7 Health

Thank you, Xisca. I have to infuse my brain with your knowledge, and it can take some time.

 

[Xisca]

Thank you, Xisca. I have to infuse my brain with your knowledge, and it can take some time.

The main sentence they repeat us in SE is "Take your time"...
I thought hearing Irene's story could be a good embodyment of what this kind of work bring to lingering health problems....