The Freeze Response At The Root Of "learned" Helplessness

[Xisca]

Why "learned"? It is not that much in the neo-cortex.
What happens at the level of the autonomous nervous system is the root that results in helpless behaviours and powerless feelings.

For various reasons, the freeze response in much less taken into account than the fight and flight response. The 3 of them are valid though. The word "freeze" has been chosen because of the F, because this is usually an immobility response. It is better described as a discontinuity in the felt sense, for protecting reasons. This happens when the activation coming from the impossibility to manage a danger successfully is too strong and cannot be taken safely by the system. So you stop feeling it. The same system exists in your home electric system! So you do not burn out.

When any animal from insects to humans is repeatedly defeated, the real problem is that the high activation is still running underneath the apparent immobility. This has many purposes that are beyond the scope of a short description. The difficulty to go out of immobility is the too strong activation when too much has been acumulated. There comes a moment when it needs to be discharged by bits instead of all at once. That is what makes it more difficult to do it when you do not know how it works.

This explains why it becomes impossible to act again even when the problem or the threat is gone. For our system, the problem is considered as gone only when the activation has been discharged. Whatever solution you chose to deal with helplessness, the sometimes invisible result will be a discharge of activation, that is behind ALL successful methods.

And I would say better than learned, it is accumulated or imprinted in the body. You can access it by the felt sense, which is the language of the Autonomous Nervous System (ANS). Peter Levine call it the unspoken voice... The reason why we focus on thoughts and emotions is that they are a translation of the felt sense when it is too strong to be comfortable. Also, physical symptoms are the body's way to release some steam and avoid explosion.

Animals are better than us at going out of immobility, because their neo-cortex in not as strong. Ours is not strong enough to control the automatic activation when we are challenged, but it is strong enough to control the discharge of activation that MUST happen after each activation. When we do not reach the freeze stage, the discharge is not too unconfortable, and we mostly let it happen. But when we respond by immobility, which mean that the activation is still at its highest point underneath, it is very unconfortable to go out of it. That is why our powerful cortex "help" us to control it, preventing the total discharge.

All experiences with animals about the freeze response include being caged. Wild animals do not get that much traumatised because this situation does not exist in the wild. Traumatised animals in the wild got a problem such as loosing their mother at early age, preventing them to strenghten their nervous system with support.

For all of us, and especially children, the best way to prevent trauma is to live successful experiences and celebrate them. This strenghten our ability and our resilience, so that we can take more stress before having to freeze. We do not choose to freeze or fight or flee, our instinct chose. But we can use our brain to chose how to practise our life. It would be like the samourai: they practise their defense strategies, and their system will automatically use it at its best level whenever it is necessary. Therefore, they can sleep quietly with their spade at their side, because they can trust their reaction.

 

[Makrosky]

Xisca,

Thanks for sharing your ideas with us. I think you missed including what do you suggest in a practical manner. Trembling with Bercelli's system for some time ?

I want to add one thing I just realized this week re-reading "Generative Energy" Book :

I think Peat tends to see things : life, the body, the earth, evolution, etc. in a way that the past is not that much important, things are reorganizing spontaneously in the right way, provided there exist the right circumstances.

Every moment is as good as any other to become at full potential. How you see your personal past is also determined by how your present health is (I've experienced this a lot).

So your idea that you once got a trauma that got stucked in the body, and then you have to go back layer by layer like an onion to heal it, it's an idea based on the other idea that the past determines present in a heavy way.

The good thing about Peat philosophy is that your health can be immediately improved NOW. You don't have to detox acccumulated toxins, process old psychological traumas, etc.

What do you think ?

 

[Greg says]

Xisca,

Thanks for sharing your ideas with us. I think you missed including what do you suggest in a practical manner. Trembling with Bercelli's system for some time ?

I want to add one thing I just realized this week re-reading "Generative Energy" Book :

I think Peat tends to see things : life, the body, the earth, evolution, etc. in a way that the past is not that much important, things are reorganizing spontaneously in the right way, provided there exist the right circumstances.

Every moment is as good as any other to become at full potential. How you see your personal past is also determined by how your present health is (I've experienced this a lot).

So your idea that you once got a trauma that got stucked in the body, and then you have to go back layer by layer like an onion to heal it, it's an idea based on the other idea that past conditions present in a heavy way.

The good thing about Peat philosophy is that your health can be immediately improved NOW. You don't have to detox acccumulated toxins, process old psychological traumas, etc.

What do you think ?

 

[Makrosky]

Greg? You just quoted me but I don't see your answer.

 

[Greg says]

Greg? You just quoted me but I don't see your answer.

Greg? You just quoted me but I don't see your answer.

Ha, yeah, this website won't load fully on my computer ….. I was going to agree with you. "How you see your personal past is also determined by how your present health is".

Ray's take on overcoming trauma (from a reader):

Q - "So if someone has experienced a child trauma but also had thyroid problems, could the healing of the thyroid heal the emotional trauma all at once? Or would the person still have to do the work of getting in touch with their feelings about it? I do think feelings are like energy, they can't be stuffed. Could the increased energy from the thyroid bypass the need for direct emotional healing and coming to terms with all the fears and blind spots created by the emotional trauma?"

A - "Yes, no, yes. Nothing is stored, it's like the pasts are all present in the same room, and we periodically have a different perspective on them. When the present balance of stuff, toxicants, euphoriants, etc., is good, you can think and feel what you want to about things." —RP

 

[Drareg]

Ha, yeah, this website won't load fully on my computer ….. I was going to agree with you. "How you see your personal past is also determined by how your present health is".

Ray's take on overcoming trauma (from a reader):

Q - "So if someone has experienced a child trauma but also had thyroid problems, could the healing of the thyroid heal the emotional trauma all at once? Or would the person still have to do the work of getting in touch with their feelings about it? I do think feelings are like energy, they can't be stuffed. Could the increased energy from the thyroid bypass the need for direct emotional healing and coming to terms with all the fears and blind spots created by the emotional trauma?"

A - "Yes, no, yes. Nothing is stored, it's like the pasts are all present in the same room, and we periodically have a different perspective on them. When the present balance of stuff, toxicants, euphoriants, etc., is good, you can think and feel what you want to about things." —RP

Ray Peats answer here I can confirm myself personally from following some of Peats guidelines. Many more on here will confirm this.

Has anyone noticed a PUFA heavy meal can send them into a mildly depressive mindset/filter?
I started noticing it when dining out a few times, I used vitamin E and it alleviates it within and hour, mitolipin works even quicker. Same with grains but not as quick.
This is one of the reason I becoming way pickier on when I am eating out.

It becomes a bit disconcerting when you become aware of how different chemicals are subtly changing how your filter on reality, most people as did I before Peat need strong substance to alter consciousness noticeably.
Adrenalin makes you an instant mirror to your environment, more cons than pros in this behaviour, Its interesting in this case that we use the term reflect to imply thinking.

The question begs sometimes, who am I, I'm not an I but made of many thoughts and ideals from the past/culture, spooky I think.
Is it more what am I becoming,the realisation of this and self directing accordingly from a Peat perspective?

 

[Makrosky]

Has anyone noticed a PUFA heavy meal can send them into a mildly depressive mindset/filter?

More like fried food or condimented with cheap vegetable oils. Other PUFA like avocado aren't that bad.

 

[Drareg]

More like fried food or condimented with cheap vegetable oils. Other PUFA like avocado aren't that bad.

Exactly.
Most high end Asian restaurants are full of poor oils, stuff is everywhere.
It seems some of the classic French cuisine which was labelled unhealthy because of saturated fats are clean of most pufa laden oils.

 

[Nighteyes]

Adrenalin makes you an instant mirror to your environment, more cons than pros in this behaviour, Its interesting in this case that we use the term reflect to imply thinking.

Hi would you maybe explain a bit deeper about this sentence? So adrenalin makes you react to more stressors and stuff around you?

 

[HDD]

RP: When the blood sugar falls, or when you have any stress, the adrenalin, after the glycogen is depleted, the adrenalin starts mobilizing free fatty acids out of your fat cells, but also out of your other tissues cells, where phospholipids are turning down very fast. And phospholipids will come into the blood, releasing free fatty acids. And if you’ve incorporated a lot of the polyunsaturated fats into your tissues, these free polyunsaturated fats happen to not only interfere with sugar metabolism, but they also signal more stress hormone production. So, they will tell your brain that the stress is worse than it was.

 

[moss]

Ha, yeah, this website won't load fully on my computer ….. I was going to agree with you. "How you see your personal past is also determined by how your present health is".

And how you feel today is far more influenced by they way you handle the present than by what happened in your past.

Q - "So if someone has experienced a child trauma but also had thyroid problems, could the healing of the thyroid heal the emotional trauma all at once? Or would the person still have to do the work of getting in touch with their feelings about it? I do think feelings are like energy, they can't be stuffed. Could the increased energy from the thyroid bypass the need for direct emotional healing and coming to terms with all the fears and blind spots created by the emotional trauma?"

A - "Yes, no, yes. Nothing is stored, it's like the pasts are all present in the same room, and we periodically have a different perspective on them. When the present balance of stuff, toxicants, euphoriants, etc., is good, you can think and feel what you want to about things." —RP

Great quote.

 

[Drareg]

Hi would you maybe explain a bit deeper about this sentence? So adrenalin makes you react to more stressors and stuff around you?

It's just my own observation from working in high pressure environments with long hours,you see the feedback progress as the day unfolds.
The worst culprits are the low calorie types,it may not be by choice they are low calorie,just no time to eat, they consume coffee and nicotine,elevating adrenalin more.

I wouldn't just say it's adrenalin that causes reaction, it's the other stress substances that Peat mentions,the difference is serotonin causes depression causing ruminating,sometimes leading to scheming and potentially sociopathy, this is a slower process,it's lower functioning but still some thinking involved.

Adrenalin however is just fast responses from past conditioning/programming, adrenalin has the potential to unfold the real you in an instant,like throwing someone under a bus so to speak.
People with better conditioning from childhood will deal with situations differently. Training to react like the op mentioned with the samurai,soldiers or sports, this can hide adrenalin and make the response seem elegant,the question here to ask however, with training or a good childhood are you epigentically changed and less likely to react with adrenalin in novel situations?
This is to your advantage, adrenalin severely limits creative capacity, adrenalin is like a door for conditiones responses only.

Fight or flight could be renamed for modern times and capitalism, screw you or screw me.

 

[Xisca]

Xisca,

Thanks for sharing your ideas with us. I think you missed including what do you suggest in a practical manner. Trembling with Bercelli's system for some time ?
I think Peat tends to see things : life, the body, the earth, evolution, etc. in a way that the past is not that much important, things are reorganizing spontaneously in the right way, provided there exist the right circumstances.

1) I did not include more because it was already long, and because you can also read Peter Levine.
2) Trembling is not the only way to discharged unused energy after a stressing moment.
3) Of course Peat is right in this, but "the right circumstances" are not so easy to get.
This is possible including without supplements.

I think we have enough topics to talk about chemicals and neurotransmitors and any supplement, so I wanted to highlight things and knowledge that are complementary.

We can take pills etc to correct a disbalance,
but then, this is not what Peat says:
THINGS ARE REORGANIZING SPONTANEOUSLY.
Yes they do, and I have some ideas about how.

 

[Xisca]

Q - "So if someone has experienced a child trauma but also had thyroid problems, could the healing of the thyroid heal the emotional trauma all at once? Or would the person still have to do the work of getting in touch with their feelings about it? I do think feelings are like energy, they can't be stuffed. Could the increased energy from the thyroid bypass the need for direct emotional healing and coming to terms with all the fears and blind spots created by the emotional trauma?"

A - "Yes, no, yes. Nothing is stored, it's like the pasts are all present in the same room, and we periodically have a different perspective on them. When the present balance of stuff, toxicants, euphoriants, etc., is good, you can think and feel what you want to about things." —RP

Peat's answer is not complete enough to understand it.
The question is wrong: it has nothing to do with FEELINGS. Feelings are consequences to manage a physical stress. Peat is right about physiology, but this is not his specialty to deal with the spontaneous changes that all animals practise without requiring taking drugs.

When he says nothing is stored, what is "nothing", this is the story, the event, the memory.
But yes the energy can still be present if it was not discharged the way it should.

When the balance of stuff is good, of course it make things easier, but you still do not know what charge of stress you can handle. Sure, more, but up to what point? And how do you correct it without taking supplements? They are a good help, but why stay away from the natural spontaneous healing? For most of us, because we do not know how to do it in a comfortable way, and correcting our chemistry is simply done, when you can get the right stuff.

And this, we have plenty of room in other parts of the forum.

About food, yes I do considere that the wrong foods put a stress on us, same as any dangerous event. I think we can act at many levels, and i propose one I know to be effective, plus an understanding of the nervous system that is helpful. Then it is up to each of us to chose if you want to use one or more strategies.

 

[Xisca]

And how you feel today is far more influenced by they way you handle the present than by what happened in your past.

This is right that the problem is not in the STORY, so not in the past that is past.
-->> But the way you handle the present is under the influence of how you handled the past. <<--
It depends on how you let the natural process settle down after stress.

This topic is about FREEZE.

Freeze is the most difficult stuff to discharge, because we freeze when the system is overwhelmed. When coming out of it, it is very uncomfortable, but we have to let the physiological response regulate alone. This is what animals do, and what we are not as good at as them.

 

[Drareg]

This is right that the problem is not in the STORY, so not in the past that is past.
-->> But the way you handle the present is under the influence of how you handled the past. <<--
It depends on how you let the natural process settle down after stress.

This topic is about FREEZE.

Freeze is the most difficult stuff to discharge, because we freeze when the system is overwhelmed. When coming out of it, it is very uncomfortable, but we have to let the physiological response regulate alone. This is what animals do, and what we are not as good at as them.

Surface tension perhaps?
Requires energy to maintain it,when energy is low it makes sense not to act as this requires energy you don't have access to,you are not the aggressor in these situations so you freeze waiting for the other to move before you invest energy and react.

 

[Xisca]

... depression causing ruminating ...
... fast responses from past conditioning/programming,
Training to react like the op mentioned with the samurai,soldiers or sports, this can hide adrenalin and make the response seem elegant,the question here to ask however, with training or a good childhood are you epigentically changed and less likely to react with adrenalin in novel situations?
This is to your advantage, adrenalin severely limits creative capacity, adrenalin is like a door for conditiones responses only.

ruminating is mental, from the cortex, and emotions are from the limbic brain.
Physiology is in the autonomous nervous system primarily (of course there are links between the 3, so it is called the triune brain).

It is necessary to understand what we are talking about with words, because what happens with thoughts and emotionsare effective strategies to keep in control the powerful activations.

This is not so much conditioning or programming but unfinished states of activation, the wave has gone up and has to go ddown, so that the system does not feel the issue is still running. All about physiology and hormones etc is right, but you have to go deeper and see why this can go awry instead of regulating spontaneously all the time.

Training is not either the ultimate solution. The samurai is not working on adrenaline like soldiers or in sport. They work on the nervous system, they learn at physiological level to TRUST that their system will react adequately whenever it is necessary.
So they do not have to stay hypervigilant all the time. The training is there to train what will be used when aroused and when they will have to defend themselves.

If not about training, then what?
Discharge the unused energy after a stress.
If you do not understand what is under the simple word discharge, that's what is needed.
FREEZING is about undischarged energy in the BODY-

 

[Xisca]

Surface tension perhaps?
Requires energy to maintain it,when energy is low it makes sense not to act as this requires energy you don't have access to,you are not the aggressor in these situations so you freeze waiting for the other to move before you invest energy and react.

I do not understand you, about surface tension, sorry!

Yes, the right thing is to be able to stand more before freezing. It make sense not to act when you can be hurt more, ot when your BODY knows it exceed its force, capacity etc. And yes, a prey can escape by coming out of freeze at the right moment, and it will react strongly BECAUSE the activation is still HIGH below the freeze response!

But it is useful to remember that noone can chose its reaction, F, F or F, because it is under the reptilian brain power.
When you are still running under unfinished past activations, you are less creative because the system becomes less free to adapt to only the present situation.

 

[Drareg]

ruminating is mental, from the cortex, and emotions are from the limbic brain.
Physiology is in the autonomous nervous system primarily (of course there are links between the 3, so it is called the triune brain).

It is necessary to understand what we are talking about with words, because what happens with thoughts and emotionsare effective strategies to keep in control the powerful activations.

This is not so much conditioning or programming but unfinished states of activation, the wave has gone up and has to go ddown, so that the system does not feel the issue is still running. All about physiology and hormones etc is right, but you have to go deeper and see why this can go awry instead of regulating spontaneously all the time.

Training is not either the ultimate solution. The samurai is not working on adrenaline like soldiers or in sport. They work on the nervous system, they learn at physiological level to TRUST that their system will react adequately whenever it is necessary.
So they do not have to stay hypervigilant all the time. The training is there to train what will be used when aroused and when they will have to defend themselves.

If not about training, then what?
Discharge the unused energy after a stress.
If you do not understand what is under the simple word discharge, that's what is needed.
FREEZING is about undischarged energy in the BODY-

Those emotions coming from differing regions in the brain are questionable based on research,removing certain parts of the brain still slow for the unfolding of said emotions. The brain region beleives are far from black and white,it seems the brain is an aerial of sort for unfolding information that's stored outside the brain, Peat mentions the brain needing charge from energy flow,if this charge is slighly low the brain can only unfold limited amounts of information,being tired for example effects memory,shock etc, all this effects reaction.

Ray Peat describes death as a sort of progressive freezing,Lack of coherent flow/energy.
I think based on this it could be correct to say it's Undischarged energy in a way, it can't flow through correctly,like you say words are the issue, perhaps flow instead of discharge?

 

[Xisca]

Fight or flight could be renamed for modern times and capitalism, screw you or screw me.

Yes, so I will give you in the same words the definition of the utility of freeze...
"let me screw you, or I remove the vaseline."

So when you can go out of the freeze, you just try to screw the bastard in a way he will not know, so that he won't screw you again. When we "freeze" a murderer in jail, we are quiet until the day he goes out. Then we do not know what.... there are places where people kill you so that they are sure not to suffer back.