The "Flu" May Be Simply A Sign/Symptom Of Elevated Endotoxin

haidut

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Ray has said a number of times that he thinks the majority of "flu" cases are simply symptoms of toxicity caused by increased levels of endotoxin in the blood. It seems that he may have been right about this. The study I am posting here is interesting for two reasons. One of them is more or less confirming Ray's view on flu. The study claims that the body treats endotoxin as an "infection" signal and mounts an immune response with symptoms collectively known as the "flu". The second reason is how misguided mainstream science really is. The study actually trained people to raise their adrenalin levels through mental exercises, and the ones that managed to do it were considered as more "protected" from the effects of endotoxin. It is beyond me how established doctors would consider elevated adrenalin a good thing for infection. Chronically elevated adrenalin destroys the thymus (thus destroying the immune system) and also dramatically increases gut permeability, which would make the endotoxin that much more dangerous.

https://www.radboudumc.nl/Research/Page ... ceman.aspx

"...By administering a dead bacterial component we are actually fooling the body. The immune system responds as if living bacteria are present in the blood stream and produces inflammatory proteins. As a result of this the subjects develop symptoms such as fever and headache. We can therefore use this approach to investigate the immune system of humans.”

"...We indeed observed that in the trained subjects the release of inflammatory proteins was attenuated and that they experienced far less flu-like symptoms,” says Kox."
 
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Suikerbuik

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Hi Haidut,

I am not sure if you can read the full text somewhere. http://www.innerfire.nl/files/pnas.pdf Not sure if this links stays online. The article was free on PNAS the first days too, after some days you had to pay for it. I can sent a copy to who wants it when this link shuts down however.

The trained people did this by using breathing exercises (accompanied by mindfullness); hyperventilation followed by breath retention. See figure 2, they measurements of pO2, pCO2, HCO3- and lactate.

I also wondered if this is a good thing or not. The researchers used beloved words for the effect they measured. I am not so sure either.

I don't know if higher levels of monocytes, neutrophils and leucocytes hours after exposure if is beneficial (see link to supplementary data below). Can also be seen as a sign that the clearance of LPS was not complete or fast after initial exposure. What if they injected viable bacteria, would they be alive longer??? This may also show that chronic adrenalin exposure can be a cause of increased incidence modern dissease, by weakening the acute immune respons and that Peat is right again. Acute immune respons must definitely be seen as something good (Flu is a result of cytokine expression rather than direct bacterial or viral exposure.)
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2...pplemental/pnas.201322174SI.pdf#nameddest=SF2
A well-functioning immune system protects our body from pathogens. But sometimes the immune response is too pronounced or persistent.
Protects us from pathogens only? and what about the role in regulating tissue homeostasis? Too pronounced or persistent immune respons is because of the immune system likes so? Na.. something MUST be behind that, we just don't know yet.
It was always thought that we could not voluntarily influence either the immune system or the autonomic nervous system.
This does show that medical textbooks to have no clue about the internal relationships within a human body. Ofcourse the nervous system can be influenced by thoughts, meditation and others, and that the autonomous nervous system interacts with the immune system. That is something that shouldn't even be questioned... And doctors are supposed to take care of us, lol..?

I think the anti-inflammatory proteins released by epinephrine is because then we waste less energy on things that are not first priority (survival) and we have less nuisance from the acute immune response. This helps us flight and fight for longer periods of time. Like the digestive system that is almost completely shut down too, certainly not a good thing either.
 

pboy

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as ive honed my diet, ive come to realize all sickness is initially related to undigested food, microbes or their excreted substances, or prolonged exposure to cold. That's really it. Everything else that is stressful can eventually be dealt with or escaped and the stress immediately subsides, but lingering gut irritants or exposure to harsh cold can actually damage ones body mind and soul to where it can take a day or two to recover...granted you didn't have the same thing the next day, and the next, which is how it is for most westerners at this point...an everyday gut onslaught. People actually think sickness is random or because of random things in the air! LOL but no one ever considers all the bottles and chemicals and solvents used every day that say immediately contact poison control center if ingested, or things that smell or look bad or that burn if put on the skin, or that are the equivalent of roadkill (actually, factory meat is worse than roadkil). I don't think people are as dumb as they are, I think they purposely avoid looking at sensitive issues because not even for one second in their almighty minds do they want to think that their behaviors thoughts and actions are actually what is contributing to the common bad
 

Kasper

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The second reason is how misguided mainstream science really is. The study actually trained people to raise their adrenalin levels through mental exercises, and the ones that managed to do it were considered as more "protected" from the effects of endotoxin. It is beyond me how established doctors would consider elevated adrenalin a good thing for infection. Chronically elevated adrenalin destroys the thymus (thus destroying the immune system) and also dramatically increases gut permeability, which would make the endotoxin that much more dangerous.

@haidut
I think your misinterpreting the study design. The study didn't "train" people to raise their adrenalin levels.
The study tested a training method of Wim Hof who claims to be able to adjust his immune response using his method.
Wim Hof (also known as the iceman) is able to sit in a icebath for more 1.5 hour without dropping his core temperature. They tested him and he does this by raising his metabolism with 300%. He claims that he is able to do this with his mind and breathing techniques.

In this study they tested if people that use Wim Hof's method are able adjust their immune response using Wim Hof's method. They didn't know that this method raises adrenalin, that is what they found in this study. At least, that is what the authors told in the documentary of this study. I don't understand your reasoning btw, you talk about the bad effects of chronic elevated adrenalin, but this study was clearly not about that. In this study there was a short and signifcant increase of adrenalin, but adrenalin dropped to normal levels afterwards. I can nowhere find where the study claimed that it is good to elevate adrenalin chronically. The study says that short term elevation of adrenalin may have caused the trained subjects to have less inflammation. In the documentary it was also clearly visisble that the trained subjects didn't react to the endotoxin with flu like symptoms, while the untrained subjects became sick and had flu like symptoms.

You can find the documentary with english subtitles here: http://www.eenvandaag.nl/extra/wimhof/?language=en
 

haidut

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Kasper said:
The second reason is how misguided mainstream science really is. The study actually trained people to raise their adrenalin levels through mental exercises, and the ones that managed to do it were considered as more "protected" from the effects of endotoxin. It is beyond me how established doctors would consider elevated adrenalin a good thing for infection. Chronically elevated adrenalin destroys the thymus (thus destroying the immune system) and also dramatically increases gut permeability, which would make the endotoxin that much more dangerous.

@haidut
I think your misinterpreting the study design. The study didn't "train" people to raise their adrenalin levels.
The study tested a training method of Wim Hof who claims to be able to adjust his immune response using his method.
Wim Hof (also known as the iceman) is able to sit in a icebath for more 1.5 hour without dropping his core temperature. They tested him and he does this by raising his metabolism with 300%. He claims that he is able to do this with his mind and breathing techniques.

In this study they tested if people that use Wim Hof's method are able adjust their immune response using Wim Hof's method. They didn't know that this method raises adrenalin, that is what they found in this study. At least, that is what the authors told in the documentary of this study. I don't understand your reasoning btw, you talk about the bad effects of chronic elevated adrenalin, but this study was clearly not about that. In this study there was a short and signifcant increase of adrenalin, but adrenalin dropped to normal levels afterwards. I can nowhere find where the study claimed that it is good to elevate adrenalin chronically. The study says that short term elevation of adrenalin may have caused the trained subjects to have less inflammation. In the documentary it was also clearly visisble that the trained subjects didn't react to the endotoxin with flu like symptoms, while the untrained subjects became sick and had flu like symptoms.

You can find the documentary with english subtitles here: http://www.eenvandaag.nl/extra/wimhof/?language=en

@kasper - you are right, the study did not say that chronically elevated adrenalin is bad. That was my assertion. But the study does make the claim that raising adrenalin short term is what prevented the trained subjects from reacting to the endotoxin:

"...Kox: “The trained men produced more of the hormone epinephrine as a result of the techniques they had learned.” Epinephrine is a stress hormone that is released during increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system and it suppresses the immune response."

So, I am making the claim that suppressing the "immune response" is NOT good acutely or chronically. Adrenalin suppresses the immune function short term and destroys the immune system long term by shrinking the thymus gland. So, the fact that the subjects did not react to endotoxin is not good in my opinion. Your immune system should react to endotoxin, not just sit idly by while it poisons you from inside out.
You can probably replicate the study by inducing hypoglycemia, which raises cortisol and also suppresses the immune system. Or you can take a hefty dose of fish oil (EPA/DHA) and still get the same "good" result of no reaction to known poisons.
 

Kasper

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Your immune system should react to endotoxin, not just sit idly by while it poisons you from inside out.

This doesn't make sense to me. The immune system is helpfull for killing pathogens, but I don't see how the immune system is able to do anything helpfull for endotoxin.

So, I am making the claim that suppressing the "immune response" is NOT good acutely or chronically.

I'm not sure if there is nothing positive in supressing the immune response sometimes.
 

haidut

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Kasper said:
Your immune system should react to endotoxin, not just sit idly by while it poisons you from inside out.

This doesn't make sense to me. The immune system is helpfull for killing pathogens, but I don't see how the immune system is able to do anything helpfull for endotoxin.

So, I am making the claim that suppressing the "immune response" is NOT good acutely or chronically.

I'm not sure if there is nothing positive in supressing the immune response sometimes.


I will have to defer to someone else with more knowledge than me on this one. However, there was a thread on the forum several days ago about whether getting sick is a symptom of good health or bad, and the consensus was that it is good to actually react to pathogens/toxins. I think someone consulted with Peat who said the same thing - i.e. something along the lines of not reacting to noxious substances was not a good sign, since it means the body probably can't mount an active defense.
 

tara

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haidut said:
Kasper said:
Your immune system should react to endotoxin, not just sit idly by while it poisons you from inside out.

This doesn't make sense to me. The immune system is helpfull for killing pathogens, but I don't see how the immune system is able to do anything helpfull for endotoxin.

So, I am making the claim that suppressing the "immune response" is NOT good acutely or chronically.

I'm not sure if there is nothing positive in supressing the immune response sometimes.


I will have to defer to someone else with more knowledge than me on this one. However, there was a thread on the forum several days ago about whether getting sick is a symptom of good health or bad, and the consensus was that it is good to actually react to pathogens/toxins. I think someone consulted with Peat who said the same thing - i.e. something along the lines of not reacting to noxious substances was not a good sign, since it means the body probably can't mount an active defense.

I don't know enough to know the detailed mechanisms of how the immune system does or should respond to anything, including endotoxin.

But my simple understanding of my immune system is that its job is to protect my cells from harmful substances and micro-organisms, and this includes disposing of endotoxin.

1. The immune system learns to distinguish 'me' from ''foreign cells' and responds accordingly. The thymus is where it learns how to tell the difference. The thymus sends out lots of discerning fighter cells to destroy pathogenic invaders. The spleen may have a role too. If the thymus is badly atrophied (eg from starvation and other high stress states), it doesn't turn out so many strong and discerning immune cells. This can sometimes lead to not being able to fight infections effectively and/or to fighting our own cells by mistake (autoimmune issues).

2. Somehow other parts of my immune system distinguish between benign substances that I can use for fuel, support or repair of my cells, and toxic or excess substances that will interfere with my wellbeing. Its job is to remove the harmful stuff from my body. This involves lots of processes, and the liver and kidneys play key roles in the detoxification aspect. If the liver is undernourished and overburdened, it has trouble keeping up with this job.

Surely the latter (2) would have a major role in protecting us from endotoxin by removing it before it does too much harm?

Maybe this doesn't address the detail of the argument in this thread, but I'm curious about whether I got the super-simple picture more or less right? :?:
 

Amazoniac

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Endotoxin Residues in Food (P. Venter)
http://reference.sabinet.co.za/webx/access/electronic_journals/interim/interim_v9_n1_a10.pdf

2.2.2 Endotoxin Toxicity
Mentioning how the immune response to endotoxins is milder when glucocorticoids are typically elevated.

4 Endotoxins and Food-Borne Pathogen Survival
Really interesting part on how bacteria that grew on stressful environments are more resistant to attacks and elicit a greater immune response.

5 Conclusion
Some ways to counteract the inflammatory response to endotoxins, like moderate activity and chewing properly.
 

Amazoniac

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Forgot to mention that some people benefit from antibiotics but as soon as the treatment stops, the problems become worse. As cantstoppeating, the poet, suggested once; they are treating with medicine but their diet and lifestyle remain the same. So, unless it's acute, infections progress slowly due to incapable immunity, regardless of the reason; the antibiotic treatment in those cases is not enough to eradicate the infection and it's just creating that stressful environment and making the problem worse in the long-term.
 

michael94

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Forgot to mention that some people benefit from antibiotics but as soon as the treatment stops, the problems become worse. As cantstoppeating, the poet, suggested once; they are treating with medicine but their diet and lifestyle remain the same. So, unless it's acute, infections progress slowly due to incapable immunity, regardless of the reason; the antibiotic treatment in those cases is not enough to eradicate the infection and it's just creating that stressful environment and making the problem worse in the long-term.

Ray has said a number of times that he thinks the majority of "flu" cases are simply symptoms of toxicity caused by increased levels of endotoxin in the blood. It seems that he may have been right about this. The study I am posting here is interesting for two reasons. One of them is more or less confirming Ray's view on flu. The study claims that the body treats endotoxin as an "infection" signal and mounts an immune response with symptoms collectively known as the "flu". The second reason is how misguided mainstream science really is. The study actually trained people to raise their adrenalin levels through mental exercises, and the ones that managed to do it were considered as more "protected" from the effects of endotoxin. It is beyond me how established doctors would consider elevated adrenalin a good thing for infection. Chronically elevated adrenalin destroys the thymus (thus destroying the immune system) and also dramatically increases gut permeability, which would make the endotoxin that much more dangerous.


Prevention of influenza episodes with colostrum compared with vaccination in healthy and high-risk cardiovascular subjects: the epidemiologic study... - PubMed - NCBI

Colostrum is one of the best things for restoring intestinal integrity so makes a lot of sense. There's also a lot of immune system components.
 

DaveFoster

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Also estrogen. High-estrogen is exactly like the flu with elevated histamine and associated effects, lethargy, and irritability.
 

Peata

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Also estrogen. High-estrogen is exactly like the flu with elevated histamine and associated effects, lethargy, and irritability.
Related to that, I think liver problems. When I was riddled with estrogen dominance and having gallbladder and fatty liver, I had flu-like symptoms that last all month except a short time during my period and just after when I had some relief.
 

haidut

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If you have high stomach acid, flu and cold are practically non-existent.

Very, very true. And high levels of stomach acid depend on thyroid and CO2 levels, so it all goes back to metabolism:):
 

Fractality

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I have an anecdotal experience to share. I recently dealt with flu-like symptoms. Remembering this thread, I took activated charcoal. I ended up having to only endure one night of intense fever. A few other symptoms lingered but the fever went away after just one night. Perhaps the AC soaked up endotoxin?
 

Soren

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had a moderate number of drinks last night, something I rarely do, and woke up with chills and this morning flu like symptoms. Does anyone know if alcohol has an affect on endotoxin levels?
 

haidut

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had a moderate number of drinks last night, something I rarely do, and woke up with chills and this morning flu like symptoms. Does anyone know if alcohol has an affect on endotoxin levels?

I don't know for sure if it will raise endotoxin but it definitely acts like it. Ethanol is one of the most potent activators of the endotoxin receptor (TLR4), so it is similar in effects to endotoxin.
TLR4 - Wikipedia

When you add to that that ethanol is also agonist of the 5-HT3 receptor and triggers histamine release, you get a pretty potent inflammatory punch. Cyproheptadine can probably stop most of these reactions in their tracks.
 
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Soren

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Of course it does, ethanol is one of the most potent activators of the endotoxin receptor (TLR4).
TLR4 - Wikipedia

When you add to that that ethanol is also agonist of the 5-HT3 receptor and triggers histamine release, you get a pretty potent inflammatory punch. Cyproheptadine can probably stop most of these reactions in their tracks.

Thanks Haidut. Do you think serotonin antagonists such as Metergoline would be effective at stopping these reactions in a similar way to cyproheptadine?
 

haidut

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Thanks Haidut. Do you think serotonin antagonists such as Metergoline would be effective at stopping these reactions in a similar way to cyproheptadine?

Yep, they have been used to control alcohol withdrawal symptoms with great success.
 
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