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"The Fallacy Of Administering Mixtures Of Crystalline Vitamins Alone In Nutritional Deficiency"

  1. "The fallacy of administering mixtures of crystalline vitamins alone in nutritional deficiency"
    Stressing the word because these vitamins are not only extremely beneficial but quite often required for an effective therapy as long as the rest is covered.

    Book Series: Vitamins And Hormones
    Nutritional Therapy of Endocrine Disturbances - ScienceDirect

    By the ultra-pimp: Morton S. Biskind.
    Other relatives that often collaborate or research related subjects:
    Gerson (as GR Biskind), John (as JI Biskind) and Leonard (as LH Biskind).

    Believe it or not, these are some selected parts:

    "Although direct nutritional therapy of endocrine disturbances is of very recent origin, numerous clinical observations during the past half century, viewed in retrospect, reveal surprising correlations between nutritional and endocrine disturbances. And scattered animal investigations during the past thirty years have indicated a more direct relation between nutritional deficiency and changes in endocrine function.

    Among these older studies were the use of liver and liver extracts in diabetes (Gilbert, and Carnot, 1896). Stockton (1908) described the characteristic appearance of the tongue in diabetes as “large, red, ‘beefy,’ and bordered with a fissured margin...,” a description now accepted as classical of pellagra. Functional changes in the central nervous system in diabetes that we now recognize as characteristic of thiamine and niacinamide deficiency were described with great accuracy by Futcher in 1907. The occurrence of hyperglycemia in pigeons on a “vitamin-free” diet was reported by Funk and von Schoenborn in 1914; this observation was followed up by other workers but its clinical implications were long neglected."

    "Plaut (1923) first reported hypertrophy of the adrenals in avitaminosis in animals."

    "Testicular atrophy occurring secondary to “malnutrition” was mentioned by Reynolds and Macomber in 1921, and both testicular atrophy and gynccomastia have been known for some time to be associated vvith hepatic cirrhosis (cited by Glass et al., 1940)."

    "More direct evidence of a relation between nutrition and endocrine function was provided by Evans and Bishop (1922); they reported that rats on a vitamin B free diet became anestrous. This phenomenon was later shown to be due to the suppression of the anterior pituitary (Parkes, 1928; Marrian and Parkrs, 3929)."

    "On the basis of the latter investigations, and others implicating nutritional defects in alterations of hepatic morphology (Patek, 1937; Ando, 1938; Rhoads et al., 1938, 1940; Sebrell and Onstatt, 1938; Nakahara et al., 1939; Gyorgy and Goldblatt, 1939, 1940; Rich and Hamilton, 1940) (cf. also: Blumberg and McCollum, 1941; Daft et al., 1941; Earlet et al., 1941, 1942; Lillie et al., 1941, 1942; Lowry et aZ., 1941; Patek and Post, 1941 ; Broun and Muether, 1942), M. S. and G . R. Biskind (1941), utilizing the method of splenic implantation, found that, while castrate female rats with pellets of estrone in their spleens remained anestrous when on a normal diet, they went into continuous estrus when the diet was depleted in B complex vitamins, thus demonstrating that, in this type of nutritional deficiency, the liver loses its ability to inactivate estrogen. Addition of brewers yeast, or a mixture of crystalline thiamine, riboflavin, pyridoxine and calcium pantothenate, to the diet restored the anestrous state and subsequent depletion again led to continuous estrus (M. S. and G. R. Biskind, 1942; M. S. Biskind, 1943). Thus, the flow of estrogen through the liver could be controlled at will by witholding the B vitamins or restoring them to the diet. Impairment of the estrogen-inactivating mechanism of the liver occurred in the absence of detectable morphologic change in this organ (Fig. 1) (M. S. and G. R. Biskind, 1942); conversely, inactivation of estrogen can occur in livers which are the site of severe necrosis and fat infiltration, induced by a B complex-free diet supplemented with thiamine, riboflavin, pyridoxine and calcium pantothenate (Fig. 2) (M S. Biskind, 1944). The functional and morphologic changes in the liver thus bear no necessary relation to each other."

    "Subsequent investigation of the problem of estrogen inactivation in the liver has shown that, in the rat, thiamine and riboflavin alone among the B vitamins are adequate to permit hepatic destruction of estrogen (Singher, Taylor et al., 1944; Singher, Kensler et al., 1944; Segaloff and Segaloff, 1944: Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944) and that the presence of methionine is essential to this function (TJnna, Singher et al., 1944; Gyorgy and Goldblatt, 1945)."

    "Unna, Singher et al. (1944), György and Goldblatt (1945) and György (1945) have shown that, in the absence of an adequate amount of proteid, the B vitamins cannot maintain estrogen-inactivation in the liver. Hence, restriction of diet as performed in the paired feeding experiments of Drill and Pfeiffer could easily have reduced the protein intake below the critical level, and the apparent failure of methionine in their experiments, in contrast to the positive effect reported by Unna et al. and György, may have been due (assuming the possibility that other factors were equal) to differences in the basic proteid intake.
    From unpublished experiments of G. R. and M. S. Biskind (interrupted by vvartime exigencies) other factors in addition to thiamine, riboflavin and methionine appear to be involved in the estrogen-inactivating mechanism, and it appears that inanition can also disturb it, even though this has little practical significance. As discussed subsequently, in the clinical syndromes in which nutritional deficiency is associated with excess estrogen, the vast majority of subjects are extremely well fed; the latter respond dramatically to administration of the whole B complex."

    Vitamins B1 & B2 Are Required For Estrogen Inactivation By Liver

    "The observation by Plaut (1923), previously mentioned, that the adrenal cortex is hypertrophic in avitaminosis B in rats, is undoubtedly related to failure of inactivation of estrogen in the liver. Excess estrogen regularly produces this phenomenon (Korenchevskq and Dennison, 1935), and it was observed by the author in vitamin B deficient castrate animals with a pellet of estrogen or an ovary implanted in the spleen, showing protracted estrual reactions as a result of impaired inactivation in the liver."

    "A survey of necropsy records of female patients with cirrhosis of the liver (M. S. and L. H. Biskind, 1943) showed evidence of excess estrogen in every case in which data were available on the pelvic organs."

    "Bean (1942, 1943) has found that cutaneous vascular spiders and palmar erythema formerly associated mainly with cirrhosis of the liver, occur also in nutritional deficiency and at the period in pregnancy when estrogen increases significantly."
    "A considerable proportion of patients who have lesions of nutritional deficiency associated with functional uterine bleeding, cystic mastitis and premenstrual tension also have cutaneous vascular of the spiders and palmar erythema noted by Bean and by Perera. In addition, a tendency to develop petechial hemorrhages from relatively minor bruises and an increased tendency to bleed, are extremely common among these patients. This clears up rapidly on vitamin B complex therapy (M. S. Biskind, 1943; M. S., G. R. and L. H. Biskind, 1944; M. S. Biskind, unpublished), indicating that this phenomenon is related to dilatation of cutaneous vessels under the influence of estrogen and is not due to vitamin K deficiency, which has been thought to bear a relation to menorrhagia (Gubner and Ungerleider, 1944). However, in the patients who have prominent cutaneous vascular spiders, these rarely show more than slight or moderate regression under treatment[.] The palmar erythema, however, occasionally shows definite diminution after prolonged and intensive nutritional therapy (M. S. Biskind, unpublished)."

    "Deficiency of the vitamin B complex sets up a vicious cycle. For not only does vitamin B deprivation impair the inactivation of estrogen in the liver, but estrogen may cause vitamin B deficiency."

    "Heilig and Kantiengar (1942) found that in women in whom there is relatively low liver function (as measured by the ability to convert benzoic to hippuric acid) on the 13th or 14th day of the menstrual cycle, there is a further diminution in liver function on the first day of menstruation. This suggests that in women who have impaired liver function as a result of vitamin B complex deficiency, there is further impairment during the period of the cycle when the highest level of estrogen occurs."

    "[There is a need for greatly increase] intake of vitamin B complex during pregnancy and the puerperium."

    "[..]in diabetes, T. B. Futcher wrote in 1907, “Loss of sexual desire and power in men is common, and may be an early feature.” In intoxication with carbon disulfide, a liver poison, Edsall, writing the same year, pointed out that partial or complete impotence usually supervened. Cirrhosis of the liver has long been known to lead to testicular atrophy (cited by Glass et al., 1940). Reynolds and Macomber (1921) noted the occurrence of testicular atrophy in “malnutrition.”"

    "There was a striking correlation between the occurrence of indications of nutritional deficiency (atrophic glossitis, cheilosis, gingivitis, seborrhea alae nasae, keratosis of the lower eyelids, conjunctival injection, cutaneous vascular spiders, emotional instability, insomnia, rapid fatigability, peripheral neuritis, etc.) and the presence of testicular softening and atrophy. Gynecomastia occurred occasionally. Not infrequently in these cases, the liver was large and tender. Under intensive vitamin B complex therapy, not only did the lesions of nutritional deficiency clear up (with rapid diminution in the size of the liver when this was enlarged) but there was rapid and dramatic restoration of libido and potency. This was especially striking in cases of diabetes (Biskind and Schreier, 1945), in which diminished gonadal function in the male has long been considered almost invariable (cf. Root and Bailey, 1945)."

    "Numerous studies already cited have established that cirrhosis of the liver can be produced by nutritional deficiency or nutritional imbalance and that the B vitamins (especially choline) and the protein content of the diet play a major role in this phenomenon. In addition to the lesion just mentioned, other disturbances have been produced in the liver, both functional and morphological, by vitamin B deficiency (Rhoads and Miller, 1938; Sebrell and Onstatt, 1938). Gyorgy and Goldblatt (1939, 1940, 1942) have shown that, in experimental cirrhosis of the liver in rats, the lesions may be prevented by the administration of brewer’s yeast, yeast extract or choline. Subsequently, Blumberg and McCollum (1941) also reported prevention of dietary cirrhosis with choline, and Lowry and his co-workers (1941) have reported successful treatment of this condition with choline and casein. Patek (1937) and Yatek and Post (1941), have noted amelioration of clinical hepatic cirrhosis with dietary therapy, mainly with sources of the vitamin B complex. Choline has also been found to be useful in clinical cirrhosis (Broun and Muether, 1941)."

    "Failure of the liver to inactivate estrogen in a deficiency of the vitamin B complex while this organ continues to inactivate androgen must seriously disturb the estrogen-androgen equilibrium. One possible consequence of such an alteration is indicated by the work of Lipschutz and his collaborators (1939-1944; cf. also Vargas, 1942; Marx et al., 1942; Dosne, 1944; Iglesias et al., 1944). Lipschutz et al. have shown that subserous fibroids can be produced by the continuous (but not by the intermittent) action of estrogen, not only in the uterus but also in other abdominal organs and in the abdominal wall. Fibroids thus produced can be prevented by the simultaneous administration of testosterone (or of progesterone or other steroids having the androstene nucleus)."

    "When viewed in the light of present knowledge on the relation of the B vitamins to inactivation of estrogen in the liver, a number of otherwise puzzling facts, especially in regard to tumors of the breast, become explicable. It is well known that the incidence of cancer of the breast is higher in obese women than in those of more nearly average proportions. This applies also to the occurrence of menorrhagia and other disturbances related to excess estrogen (M. S. Biskind, 1943). Loeb, Suntzeff et al. (1942) have shown that there is a definite direct correlation between body weight and the incidence of spontaneous mammary cancers in mice. The converse has been demonstrated by Tannenbaum (1940; 1942), who showed that caloric restriction diminished the incidence of mammary carcinomas."

    "As the need for thiamine and riboflavin is directly related to the caloric intake of carbohydrate, in a diet in which there is less than the minimal amount of these factors (and this is especially true of the present average American diet as well as that elsewhere) (Drummond and Wilbraham, 1939; Stiebeling, 1941, 1943; Jolliffe, 1943; Adamson et al., 1945), the greater the caloric intake, especially of carbohydrate, the greater the vitamin deficit. Clinically, obese patients virtually always show signs of avitaminosis unless they have had a nutritional supplement."

    "The fact that diabetics show an incidence of cancer six times that of the general population as a whole (Ellinger and Landsman, 1944) is quite in keeping with the etiologic relationship of nutritional deficiency to diabetes (see Section V)."

    "In the male, not only is spermatogenesis and spermic function affected directly by nutritional deficiency (vitamin A, vitamin E, [cf. Mason, 1939], riboflavin [MacLeod, 1942] and undoubtedly other factors) but the rise in body estrogen which results from failure of inactivation in the liver secondarily affects spermatogenesis. Biskind and Falk (1943) studied the effect of therapy with vitamin B complex (in some cases with addition of vitamin E) and found definite increases in sperm counts and in motility, and diminution in the percentage of abnormal forms, with apparent restoration of fertility in eight of thirteen cases."

    "The majority of the patients with syndromes related to excess estrogen studied by M. S., G. R and L. H. Biskind (1944) had a low basal metabolic rate. This was especially true of the patients with signs of severe or moderately severe nutritional deficiency. Administration of thyroid to these patients, in the absence of a vitamin B supplement, usually caused exacerbation of the signs and symptoms of the deficiency without significant change in the metabolic rate. The low metabolic rate in these patients may be the expression of a safety mechanism; the rise in body estrogen resulting from failure of inactivation in the liver depresses the pituitary with diminution in secretion of the thyrotropic principle."

    "In several patients with enlarged thyroids who were treated nutritionally for syndromes related to excess estrogen (M. S., G. R. and L. H. Biskind, 1944; M. S. Biskind, unpublished), a definite diminution in the size of this gland was observed after several months of therapy with vitamin B complex; this was sufficiently striking to be noticed spontaneously by members of their families. In none of these cases, however, did the goiter completely regress during the period of observation. This is of interest in view of the well-known observation that patients with goiters show periodic further enlargement of the gland during the latter part of the intermenstruum, when the body estrogen rises, and that administration of estrogen to some patients with hyperthyroidism leads to diminution in the basal metabolic rate (Goldman et al., 1940). (Because the administered estrogen causes further exacerbation of an already tenuous nutritional equilibrium produced by the hyperthyroidism [see Fig. 71 it would seem inadvisable to use estrogen therapy for this purpose unless the nutritional defect were simultaneously corrected.)"

    "Williams and Kendall (1943) have reported that administered thyroid is “less effective in promoting metabolic activity... in a state of thiamine deficiency than it is when the intake of thiamine is adequate.”"

    "The observations described clarify numerous problems of thyroid therapy that have formerly been both confusing and frustrating. Thyroid is not only one of the most valuable of endocrine substances but it is also one of the most misused. Until the relation of thyroid function (and the physiologic activity of thyroxine) to nutritional status had been clarified, it was impossible to evaluate a number of clinical phenomena related to thyroid function and the metabolic effects of administered thyroid. Until the relation of thyroid function (and the physiologic activity of thyroxine) to nutritional status had been clarified, it was impossible to evaluate a number of clinical phenomena related to thyroid function and the metabolic effects of administered thyroid. Among these are: (1) the significance of the basal metabolic rate as an indication for thyroid therapy; (2) the frequent failure of administered thyroid to affect the basal metabolic rate, although side actions such as tachycardia and nervousness may be prominent; (3) the development of endocrine complications (e.g., menorrhagia, cystic mastitis) following the use of thyroid in the treatment of obesity."

    "It is notable that both the nutritional factors affecting thyroid function operate in the same direction. Failure of inactivation of estrogen in the liver leads to a consistently high blood estrogen which depresses the thyrogenic function of the anterior pituitary, and thiamine deficiency (the effect of other factors has not yet been reported) prevents the development of the normal metabolic effects of thyroxine, whether endogenous or administered. Thus, in the presence of nutritional deficiency, a low basal metabolic rate might be expected and little effect on the metabolic rate would be derived from ingestion of thyroid. Precisely this occurs. In such cases, both the usual assumption that a low basal metabolic rate is a necessary indication for thyroid, and that this can be remedied by giving thyroid, are fallacious. Actually the administration of thyroid in the presence of nutritional deficiency is sharply contraindicated; the sole effect of thyroid therapy in such cases is to cause an exacerbation of the nutritional deficiency, although, probably because of the protective mechanisms discussed, this exacerbation is often not as striking as that produced by estrogen."

    "The author makes it a practice always first to correct the avitaminosis and, when the lesions are healed, then, and then only, to administer thyroid if this is required, continuing the vitamin therapy at the same time."

    "The association of deficiencies in accessory dietary factors with certain defects in carbohydrate metabolism has been the subject of numerous studies. Among substances known to be necessary for utilization of carbohydrate are thiamine, riboflavin, niacin amide, pantothenic acid, ascorbic acid, vitamin A and vitamin D, although the role of the latter three is not as well understood as that of the B vitamins (the literature is cited by Itosenberg, 1932)."

    Volunteers are needed for Energin alone and Energin + pantethine in small amounts.

    "Soskin and his collaborators (Soskin et al., 1934, 1935, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1944), in a series of fundamental investigations, have demonstrated the basic role of the liver in maintaining normal carbohydrate balance."

    "As Waters and Rest (1942) have pointed out, “If one were obliged to name the organ in which insulin exerts the most potent influence, there would be little hesitation in selecting the liver.”"

    "It has become customary to think of diabetes mainly in terms of insulin deficiency (cf. Root and Bailey, 1945). On the basis of an investigation into the nutritional aspects of diabetes, Biskind and Schreier (1945) have suggested an alternative explanation, namely that, owing to impaired function of the liver, the latter organ is no longer able to respond to endogenous insulin, which need not be deficient. Carbohydrate balance could then be restored in two ways, by administration of additional insulin, which (if the functional defect is not too great) forces the recalcitrant liver to behave, or by restoring normal hepatic function so that the liver can respond to pancreatic insulin. Thus the concept of insulin resistance, now restricted to cases in which there is failure of response to exogenous insulin, might be extended to include many more (and perhaps most) cases of diabetes, which they believe are caused by the fact that the liver becomes resistant to the action of endogenous insulin."

    "Biskind and Schreier believe that impairment of the ability of the liver to maintain carbohydrate balance occurs as a result of nutritional deficiency, and they have shown that intensive nutritional therapy can partly or entirely restore this function."

    "In a group of 94 diabetics studied by Biskind and Schreier, every one showed signs and symptoms of deficiency of factors of the vitamin B complex. Glossitis occurred in almost all the patients (cf. Fig. 12). Cheilosis, nasolabial seborrhea, keratosis of the lower eyelids, splitting of the fingernails in layers, clouding of consciousness, nervousness, insomnia, impairment of memory for recent events, precordial pain or distress, gastrointestinal disturbances and polyneuritis were noted frequently. Syndromes related to excess estrogen occurred concomitantly." "For the most part, all these conditions showed a more or less prompt response to intensive nutritional therapy. Associated with the improvement in the avitaminotic lesions, marked improvement occurred in carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases the insulin requirement could be reduced; in others insulin could be eliminated altogether. Improvement in general health was usually striking."

    "In 1896, Gilbert a nd Carnot reported that liver had a beneficial but variable effect on diabetes. Following their initial publication, numerous French investigators studied the effects of various liver extracts with similar variable results. In 1922, Levine, in this country, reported improvement in 3 of 4 diabetics treated with a special liver extract. And several years later Blotner and Murphy (Murphy and Blotner, 1927; Blotner and Murphy, 1929, 1930) conducted an extremely well-controlled investigation which demonstrated conclusively in patients, that the feeding of raw liver (or of liver fractions other than those containing the antipernicious anemia factor) had a definite effect in lowering the blood sugar of diabetics."

    "Gaebler and Ciszewski (1945) found in 3 of 4 pancreatectomized dogs kept on a maintenance dosage of insulin, that withdrawal of the B vitamins from the diet caused exacerbation of the diabetic state and increased the insulin requirement by 50%. Using as a source of the B vitamins, either yeast (which has also been credited in the past with containing a blood sugar-reducing substance [cf. Dubin and Corbitt, 1923], and which has a history of use in diabetes almost as long as that of liver), or a mixture of thiamine, riboflavin, nicotinic acid, inositol, pyridoxine, pantothenic acid and p-aminobenzoid acid, they were able to produce prompt amelioration of the diabetic state and to reduce the insulin requirement to its former level. Richter et al. (1945) have shown that partially depancreatized rats, given free choice of various nutrients, consumed more proteid, more fat, much less carbohydrate and more of the components of the vitamin B complex--thiamine, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine and choline--than normal animals given a similar choice. So long as the depancreatized animals remained on the high proteid, high fat, high vitamin diet of their own selection, they showed no symptoms of diabetes; on a stock diet symptoms of diabetes appeared promptly."

    This is very interesting. They refrained from niacin and relied on tryptophan conversion instead, just like babyzords and dairy, to not boost oxidation and cause problems. Such diet is conserving and can prevent complications when there is not enough resources.

    "The use of single drugs has a strong modern tradition in medicine and, as a consequence, the tendency to administer thiamine or riboflavin or niacinamide alone, in an effort to correct lesions showing a predominant deficiency of one of these factors, is widespread. But clinically, single uncomplicated deficiency rarely, if ever, occur, and considering the difficulties involved in producing such deficiencies in animals under strict laboratory control, it would be extremely surprising to find a deficiency of a single vitamin in a human being even with the most esoteric dietary habits. The tendency to administer mixtures of the known crystalline B vitamins, while an improvement over the use of single factors, produces clinical effects only slightly better. The addition to these mixtures of adequate quantities of yeast, yeast extracts, rice bran extract, suitable liver extracts or whole liver, produces dramatically superior results. For the purpose of supplying necessary nutritional factors that are as yet unidentified, liver is far superior to yeast or rice of the brans, the most suitable products being the 80% alcohol-insoluble fraction or whole desiccated liver (in doses supplying the equivalent of at least two or three ounces of liver a day)."

    @haidut - maybe you find something inspiring here.

    "The fallacy of administering mixtures of crystalline vitamins alone in nutritional deficiency is illustrated by the experiments of M. S. and G. R. Biskind (1942, 1944) illustrated in Figs. 1 and 2 (p. 152). In these experiments it was possible, by producing deficiency of all the factors of the B complex, to impair the estrogen-inactivating function of rat livers that appeared perfectly normal histologically. However, by administering a mixture of thiamine, riboflavin, pyridoxine and calcium pantothenate as the sole source of B vitamins, the estrogen-inactivating function could be restored but these rats all developed fatty livers containing focal areas of necrosis. This principle is further illustrated by a recent clinical report of T. and J. Gillman (1945) who studied liver biopsies in infantile pellagrins before and during nutritional therapy. The use of a mixture of thiamine, niacin and ascorbic acid or of riboflavin and niacin in these patients not only failed to effect histologic improvement in the fatty livers (which resembled morphologically the rat livers illustrated in Fig. 2 of this review) but caused actualy aggravation of the hepatic lesions. T. and J. Gillman demonstrated that "crude" parenteral antianemic liver extract was only moderately superior to the crystalline vitamins used. However, so compelling is the prevailing view that aqueous extracts of liver represent all the activity of whole liver that these workers turned, for an adequate source of essential nutritional factors, not to desiccated whole liver but to desiccated stomach, which they found to be superior to the parenteral liver extract previously used.
    It is unfortunate, from the standpoint of nutritional therapy, that liver extracts concentrated mainly with a view to increasing their antianemic potency, were for a long time virtually the only ones available; and only a small fraction of such extracts currently produced are used for the purpose for which they were originally intended--pernicious anemia. Most of them are employed for treatment of conditions for which they are ill-adapted--mainly nutritional deficiency. This is the more regrettable as the whole liver from which the extracts are derived would, if ingested as food, produce dramatically superior results.
    An investigation of the effectiveness of whole liver and various liver fractions in the treatment of avitaminosis was carried out by M. S. Biskind (1944), with a view to elucidating the factors involved in the refractoriness of certain lesions of avitaminosis B, especially certain types of atrophic glossitis. He found that although the great majority of patients had an excellent response to commercial preparations of the vitamin B complex, and the ameliorative effect persisted indefinitely as long as maintenance therapy was continued, in a few of them the atrophic glossitis showed only a temporary response to the B complex (even though other signs subsided), and this lesion the recurred in a more refractory form. Subsequent administration of aqueous liver extracts (together with the crystalline B factors) orally and parenterally, usually failed to have more than a slight effect on this type of glossitis. Addition to this regimen of the known liposuluble vitamins (A, D, E and K) was equally ineffective. However, the ingestion of cooked whole liver in an amount much less than that from which the ineffective extracts were derived, caused a rapid and complete healing of the tongue. If the ingestion of whole liver discontinued, the glossitis recurred in a few days. The lesion could again be healed on resuming this therapy and the tongue could be maintained in the normal state indefinitely as long as liver was ingested at lest several times a week. But whole liver alone could not control the associated signs and symptoms of nutritional deficiency; these responded to intensive therapy with the water-soluble B factors.
    Among the factors missing from the ineffective liver extracts is biotin, which is bound to the protein in liver. In view of the report by Sydenstricker et al. (1942) that atrophic glossitis may occur as a result of biotin deficiency in man, a biotin concentrate was administered parenterally in one patient, in a dose providing 50 y per day; no perceptible effect occurred.
    Accordingly, Biskind further investigated the effect of different liver extracts in maintaining or restoring the estrogen-inactivating function of the liver in rats (utilizing the technic of G. R. Biskind and Mark, 1939), when these extracts were added to a vitamin B complex-free diet. The first preparation was an antianemic extract soluble in 70% alcohol; the second was a nonsaponifiable liposoluble extract originally described by Wiles and Maurer (1939), obtained from the portion of liver remaining after the antianemic fraction is separated.
    The nonsaponifiable lipoid extract of liver had a definite, but quite limited, effect in preventing impairment of the estrogen-inactivating function of the liver in animals on a vitamin B complex-free diet and in restoring this function in animals not previously depleted. Another aqueous antianemic liver extract, more highly purified by additional alcohol precipitation, was even less effective.
    The lipoid extract could neither restore the body weight of animals depleted in the B complex nor maintain it in nondepleted animals. The antianemic fraction likewise could not restore the body weight in depleted animals but could maintain it (and actually permit a further gain) in rats not previously depleted.
    In contrast to the limited effects of either extract alone, a mixture of the water-soluble and liposoluble fractions, in proportions representing equal amounts of fresh liver, had a striking effect in restoring the estrogen-inactivating function of the liver and in maintaining it. In addition this mixture caused rapid gainz in body weight in animals previously depleted.
    This evidence provides experimental confirmation for the existence of factors essential to nutrition in the lipoid fraction of liver and suggests the advisability of combining these liver factors with those now employed in manufacturing commercial preparations for nutritional therapy. Turner and Miller (1943) have obtained from liver lipoids two substances that stimulate the production of white blood cells.
    The simplest method of administering a combination of aqueous and lipoid fractions of liver is to use the whole desiccated unfractionated liver substance. This, as already indicated, has been found to be extremely effective as a source of accessory nutritional factors in the nutritional therapy of syndromes related to excess estrogen by M. S. Biskind (1944) and of diabetes by Biskind and Schreier (1945). Cooperman et al. (1945) have found whole desiccated liver to contain a factor or factors (not present in aqueous liver extracts tested) which are essential to nutrition of the monkey.
    Failure of absorption is common in severe deficiencies, as changes take place in the gastro-intestinal of the tracts rather early. Many patients therefore require parenteral therapy. However, as the available parenteral liver extracts lack essential nutritional factors, it is not as yet possible to administer complete B complex therapy by the parenteral route. Therefore, mixtures of crystalline B vitamins are thus used along with oral administration of the more nearly complete preparations.
    The following is the therapeutic regime employed by Biskind et Schreier (1945) in the nutritional therapy of diabetes. The nutritional factors given orally are usually administered in the following daily amounts, in divided doses after meals:

    36-45 mg. thiamine
    21-36 mg. riboflavin
    ..200 mg. niacinamide (occasionally increased to 500 mg.)
    12-27 mg. calcium pantothenate
    ......3 mg. pyridoxine
    ...210 mg. choline
    27-150 mg. inositol
    60-280 y L. casei factor (folic acid)

    These vitamins were derived in part from crystalline material and in part from brewers' yest extract, 80% alcohol-insoluble liver extract, desiccated whole liver or combinations of these (the inositol and folic acid were derived solely from the natural sources); 300 mg. ascorbic acid was often included."

    "Although many patients respond rapidly and dramatically to therapy with the vitamin B factors, not a few have severe lesions of nutritional deficiency which respond slowly despite intensive therapy (cf. Kruse, 1942, 1943). Sometimes rather sudden improvement occurs following protracted intensive therapy, as in some of the cases of diabetes observed by Biskind and Schreier (1945). Perseverance is therefore important. And, as already indicated, the importance of including in the nutritional regime adequate amounts of accessory B complex factors (preferably in the form of suitable liver fractions or desiccated liver or combinations of these) cannot be too strongly stressed. Few patients respond satisfactorily to mixture of crystalline B factors alone or to those containing, as sources of accessory factors, a few grains of brewers' of the yeasts."

    "As in other conditions related to nutritional deficiency, large doses of B complex factors must be administered indefinitely even after all morphological defects have healed, the minimum maintenance dosage at this stage being at least five to ten times the maintenance amounts for normal persons (cf. Martin and Koop, 1942) and often much more."
  2. I want you to know I really appreciate this post even though you used fuschia as a bolding agent. I think that the point of adrenal hypertrophy is important - enlarged adrenals, as a consequence of chronic stress, greatly exacerbate physiological responses to perceived challenges for quite some time. This can make it rather difficult to maintain homeostasis, as one factor in the feedback loop has a wholly disproportionate response, leading to instability in the autonomic nervous system.

    I've recently increased vitamin A intake, in several forms, and it has greatly increased my need for water soluble vitamins of the ß. I can feel a change in the nervous tones controlling my liver and pancreas, and my stools have changed considerably. I think my liver is becoming more adept at excretion, but how can I stop the fat droplets from condensing? I don't want to aggravate any hepatic legions.

    Thank you!
  3. The Technic of Nutritional Therapy
    Same author.

    "[..]with the increasing availability of chemically pure dietary essentials, the tendency to administer single substances in relatively large amounts has carried over into the field of nutrition. At the least, administration of therapeutic doses of single substances (or even incomplete groups of them) is either only partially effective or even altogether ineffective. At the most it may actually be harmful."

    "Not only are deficiencies multiple but the administration of single nutritional factors or even of a combination of a few of them may actually lead to serious disturbance of a tenuous nutritional equilibrium and precipitation of new avitaminotic lesions. Those familiar with the history of the early use of niacin in the treatment of pellagra will recall the glowing preliminary reports of healing of the skin lesions and the glossitis soon to be followed by pessimistic accounts of the appearance of secondary lesions, such as cheilosis and peripheral neuritis. The addition of an adequate natural source of nutritional factors to the therapeutic regime led to prompt subsidence of all the lesions. Similarly, in a recent study ou the treatment of the peripheral neuritis of beri-beri in prisoners of war, administration of thiamine alone failed to affect the neuritis although there was definite amelioration of this lesion in patients who received the whole B complex."

    "Simply adding desiccated liver or suitable liver fractions to the regime invariably has resulted in a dramatic and lasting improvement, often evident within a few days."

    "A few citations from recent literature should suffice to illustrate the growing evidence that a number of unidentified [1952] substances occur in liver that are at least as important to nutrition as many of the factors already known. Among these are: a heat stable factor or factors present in whole liver (but not significantly in aqueous extracts) effective clinically in healing certain types of glossitis (10, 11); a substance or substances in the nonsaponifiable lipoid fraction (103) which is essential to normal liver function (inactivation of estrogen) (10, 11); liposoluble substances essential to the production of granulocytes and lymphocytes (99); a substance or substances in the non-saponifiable lipoid fraction that prevents the rusting and dermatitis that otherwise result in estrogen-treated rats on a vitamin B complex-free diet (10); a factor soluble in methanol which is essential to nutrition in the mink and the fox, and still another factor necessary to these animals which resides in the remaining portion of the liver (28); a heat stable substance or substances which occurs in the non-water soluble portion of liver that prolongs the lives of rats receiving toxic doses of thyroid or of certain drugs such as atabrine or dinitrophenol (45-47); a substance occurring in desiccated whole liver but not in antianemic liver extracts that promotes the growth of rats fed thyroid (6); a substance appearing in the non-water soluble fraction of liver that is involved in the production of intestinal xanthine oxidase (83); a principle occurring in whole liver but not in aqueous extracts, necessary to the prevention of anemia in the monkey (28); a heat-stable substance in whole liver soluble neither in aqueous nor lipid solvents that has antiearcinogenie properties (74); a substance in whole liver which promotes resistance to fatigue (48); a heat stable factor called vitamin BT essential to certain larvae, present in liver, yeast and milk (50), recently isolated from liver and identified as carnitine (27)."

    "Of course, as only one of these factors has been identified, some may be identical; but the presence of essential factors in aqueous, lipoid and protein fractions of liver other than the known crystalline vitamins is now undisputed. It should be emphasized that, as indicated in several of the investigations cited, yeast (probably the most commonly used source of the natural B complex) provides either a poor source of one or more of these substances or contains none at all (for instance, yeast does not contain vitamin B12).
    That this applies clinically, has also been amply demonstrated, and is well illustrated in a case cited by Cahn (25). This was a case of chronic hypertrophic gingivitis in which the administration of six teaspoonfuls of desiccated liver led to rapid regression of the gingival lesions. Substitution of granular yeast for the liver led to recrudescence of the gingivitis which disappeared again when powdered liver was given and remained healed so long as the latter was continued. As Cahn states, "This illustrates what all nutritionists have learned, that liver supplies some fraction that yeast does not." Similar observations have repeatedly been made by the author and his associates in treating a variety of nutritional defects and their resultant endocrine disturbances. Suitable liver preparations and especially desiccated liver were found to be incomparably superior to yeast and rice bran extract as a source of therapeutically effective nutrients. Yeast and rice bran are nevertheless very useful and do provide some of the necessary unidentified factors when given in sufficient dosage. For whole dried yeast this would represent from three to six ounces a day. (How nearly insignificant then are the few grains of brewers yeast per capsule or tablet included in numerous commercial vitamin preparations as a source of accessory factors!) Yeast extracts, however, considerably more concentrated, are effective in correspondingly smaller doses, two or three heaping teaspoonfuls a day. Yeast extract or rice bran extract, or both, may effectively be combined with liver preparations."

    "Parenteral liver extracts especially, even the so-called "crude" extracts (which, from the standpoint of the nutritional content of the original whole liver are not really "crude" at all but represent considerable fractionation), are purified with a view to increasing their antianemic potency. In this process almost all the B vitamins, except B12, separate out into the portion of the aqueous extract that is discarded (not to mention the factors remaining in the lipoid and protein fractions). Thus only small traces of the B vitamins remain in these extracts as impurities; the amounts are so small as to be almost insignificant therapeutically unless doses so large are employed (20 to 40 cc. per day) as to approach or exceed the limits of therapeutic expediency. Obviously, most of the total commercial ontput of the antianemic liver preparations is used for conditions other than macrocytic anemia."

    "For years, one manufacturer had by far the best vitamin B complex preparation on the market because portions of the liver fractions remaining after preparation of the antianemic extracts were included as a source of the accessary factors, a practice which other firms adopted only after considerable delay. But of course, even these products, superior as they may be, unless they contain whole liver, lack some of the essential elements."

    "Among the factors involved in the depletion of the American diet are:"

    "(1) Progressive depletion of much of the soil in current cultivation with the consequent production of nutritionally inferior crops (85)."

    "(2) The increasing use on crops of incredibly toxic insecticides which leave stable and tenacious residues on and in food (7, 17, 30, 31, 33, 34, 40, 41, 49, 65, 08, 70, 76, 89, 106), and at the same time further impair the fertility of the soil by destroying soil microorganisms (91, 106) and earthworms and cumulating to a concentration inhibitory to plant growth (35, 106)." [He has some publications on DDT.]

    "(3) The increasing tendency to pick, ship, process and consmne orchard and horticultural produce before it is fully ripe, hence before it has attained its full complement of essential nutrients."

    "(4) The continuously increasing tendency toward processing (use of detergents, chemicals which promote "keeping," addition of dyes, coating with waxes, heating, etc., etc.) and "purification" (bleaching, decolorizing, and the like) of much of our food (40, 65)."

    "(5) The substitution of virtually pure, vitamin-free sucrose for as much as a fourth to a sixth of the average caloric intake."

    "The requirement for the B vitamins is in direct proportion to the intake of carbohydrate. Thus, in order to burn this sugar, B vitamins must be borrowed from the remainder of the diet which rarely has enough for its own calories. As the requirement for thiamine and riboflavin (the most extensively studied in this respect among the B vitamins) appears to be about 0.5 mg. each per thousand calories, the deficit for these factors alone produced by the intake of sugar, amounts to about 0.25 mg. a day. While various protective mechanisms probably function to prevent the full impact of this depletion, its significance may nevertheless be appreciated by the fact that this would represent a cumulative deficit of approximately 90 mg. of thiamine and riboflavin each in the course of a single year. For niacin, the deficit thus produced would be about ten times this amount. And those who refrain from using sugar in coffee or sprinkling it on cereals and fruit in the belief that the intake is thus reduced to zero, are of course mistaken. Sucrose is incorporated in so many staple foods today, even including bread, that it can hardly be avoided."​

    "(6) The use of a variety of chemical additives in food processing, some of which may be toxic and others of which, while apparently harmless, nevertheless displace essential nutrients (40)."​

    "But dietary deficiency is only one of a vast number of causes of nutritional deficiency (4, 64). Numerous studies have indicated that lesions of nutritional deficiency may be produced even in the presence of an adequate diet, by factors which impair absorption of essential nutrients (e.g., gastro-intestinal disturbances, biliary disease) or increase the requirement (e.g., pregnancy and lactation, hyperthyroidism, excessive physical activity, infections), or interfere with utilization (e.g., radiation therapy), or increase destruction (e.g., estrogens, sulfonamides, antibiotics, industrial poisons, inhalation of toxic products such as lead from the polluted air of our large cities and highways, insecticide residues on fruits, vegetahles and grain), or increase excretion (e.g., lactation, excessive perspiration, polyuria). Emotional disturbances, especially when they are severe or protracted, or both, can cause extremely marked exacerbations of nutritional lesions. These operate through several of the mechanisms mentioned."

    "Tissues once depleted, require much more of the essential factors than it is possible to obtain even in an optimal diet. It is nevertheless important that the diet be as rich in protein and vitamins as feasible. But the vitamin content of the diet may not be depended on to yield quantities sufficient to heal nutritional lesions. Experience indicates that at least ten, twenty, even fifty times the maintenance amounts for persons who have never been deficient, are often necessary for therapy."

    "The vitamins operate in a series of interrelated cellular enzyme systems. Many of them require phosphorylation and association with specific proteins as well as with trace minerals for their normal function. The absence of any one of the numerous essential factors at any one time may seriously disrupt the entire metabolic chain and cause profound disturbances in oxidative metabolism. Complete therapy therefore implies simultaneous availability of all essential nutrients."

    "This is impressively illustrated by investigations on protein synthesis. Numerous independent studies have shown that unless all the essential amino acids are available at the same time, these substances are irretrievably lost and protein synthesis cannot take place. If, after feeding a mixture containing all but one of the necessary amino acids, the missing substance is not supplied until three hours later, there is definite interference with the formation of protein (52).
    In fact, it has been found that simultaneous feeding of all the amino acids, nonessential as well as essential, is lnore effective than feeding the essential ones alone. (This is because, when the "nonessential" amino acids are absent from the diet, the body must manufacture them for the essential acids.) (52)"

    "The water-soluble vitamins are poorly stored even by healthy tissues and storage is even more evanescent after a nutritional defect has once occurred. The oil soluble vitamins are usually well stored by healthy tissues, but are lost readily once a severe deficiency has occurred. This is especially true when severe liver damage has taken place."

    "The large doses of vitamin A often prescribed, for instance, may precipitate a deficiency of B factors (cf. 56). Conversely, administration of the B complex appears to enhance the utilization of vitamin A and to make such large doses unnecessary.2 Excessive doses of niacinamide may make it difficult or impossible to heal lesions such as cheilosis[*], for instance, even though what would otherwise be an adequate dose of riboflavin is included in the regime. In fact the author has frequently observed the actual induction of cheilosis on the "therapeutic formula" type of product containing large doses of niacinamide and vitamin A with smaller proportionate doses of vitamin D, ascorbic acid, thiamine and riboflavin."
    *Not to be confused with Sheilosis, a condition in which the persons starts to be polite and express gratitude.

    "In unpublished observations some years ago by the late Dr. J. M. Lewis and the author in animals, estrogen was found to interfere both with blood levels and liver storage of vitamin A despite massive supplementation with the latter. We had previously shown that B complex deficiency leads to failure of inactivation of estrogen in the liver and the development of related clinical syndromes. Thus B complex deficiency alone may indirectly interfere with vitamin A metabolism, and correction of the former obviates the massive doses of vitamin A often used."

    "As already pointed out, large doses of thiamine alone or in combination with a few other crystalline vitamins are often of little value in the treatment of the neuritis and other manifestations of beri-beri, in which thiamin deficiency is unquestionably implicated, yet the whole B complex causes prompt amelioration of the disorder. Likewise massive doses of niacin or niacinamide are only of temporary benefit in the therapy of pellagra; protracted control of the disease is possible only with the inclusion of an adequate amount of a complete natural source of the B complex. As another example, Vilter and Schreiner (101) have recently reported amelioration of resistant seborrheic dermatitis by local application of pyridoxine. But here too, as they state, "the remission is usually not permanent because the fundamental abnormality is not simple pyridoxine deficiency.""

    "Thus, although the available crystalline vitamins are extremely valuable, the tendency to excessive fortification of natural sources is to be deprecated, since the dose is more often than not estimated on the basis of the synthetics present, rather than on the more rational basis of the amount of natural source."

    "Physicians who believe vitamins belong only in the diet and that the diet can always be depended on to supply them in adequate quantity, nevertheless, have no hesitancy in violating this belief with "lipotropics," for these by some miracle of logic are treated solely as drugs. But choline, inositol, pyridoxine and cyanocobalamine (vitamin B12) are all members of the vitamin B complex and methionine is an amino acid: their use therefore entails "nutritional" therapy. Furthermore other nutritional factors, identified and unidentified, also play a part in lipoid metabolism and the "lipotropic" factors have many other functions beside their role in the degradation, deposition and distribution of neutral fats, phospholipids and cholesterol.

    Realization of these facts is important to adequate therapy of nutritional disturbances involving such disorders. The use of large doses of choline, inositol or methionine alone may ultimately actually aggravate the basic nutritional defect. A balanced and complete regime containing moderate doses of these substances together with all the other recognized essential factors and a satisfactory natural source, invariably produces a superior therapeutic result."

    "[..]the proper object of nutritional therapy is treatment of the whole organism with reasonably balanced preparations and not simply a pharmacologic attack on the liver with massive doses of a single substance. In fact, addition of excess anaounts of the lipotropic factors to the type or regime we have used, in some cases actually has led to exacerbation of the original disorder (with subsidence on reverting to the original therapy). Liver preparations, especially desiccated liver, are by themselves a rich source of the lipotropic substances. In our experience the addition of larger amounts of the lipotropic factors (e.g., choline, one gram per day) a in patients with severe hepatomegaly and other signs of serious hepatic impairment, does in these cases provide additional benefit, but only when employed together with an otherwise complete regime. The large doses (e.g., choline 4 Gm. per day) often used, we have found neither necessary nor advisable."

    "Patients who have been exposed to anv of the organic phosphorus insecticides (e.g., parathion, tetraethyl pyrophosphate or "TEPP," hexaethyl tetraphosphate or "HETP") very widely used in agriculture, which cumulatively and irreversibly inhibit cholinesterase, may have enough of the much more active free acetylcholine (although this may be insufficient in quantity by itself to produce symptoms) to contribute to the autonomic effects of the injected choline. It might then be prudent to determine the cholinesterase level of the blood before adnfinistering choline parenterally.5"

    "A patient who persists in consuming vast quantities of sugar and other refined carhohydrates, to the detriment of protein intake, can similarly expect little benefit from nutritional therapy. Likewise, an individual under the stress of acute anxiety, which impairs absorption and utilization and increases destruction and excretion of the essential nutrients, will not respond even to massive doses of these substances so long as the emotional disturbance continues to act. We have repeatedly observed in many different patients and over and over again in the same patients, that anxiety causes rapid exacerbation of nutritional lesions and development of new ones, despite concurrent intensive nutritional therapy which previously was adequate. On subsidence of the emotional conflict rapid healing ensues."

    "Laug and his associates (68-70) of the Federal Food and Drug Administration, and others have shown that even the faintest trace of DDT (less than 0.1 part per million) and certain related compounds (e.g., chlordane) in the diet are cumulatively stored in the body fat of animals. Laug has called the body fat a "biological magnifier" of DDT. This substance is known to interfere markedly with cellular oxidation (62, 63, 84) and to cause morphologic damage to virtually every organ in the body (15, 17). Yet, in current nutritional research this problem is almost completely ignored. No attempts are made to analyze the hasic diets for their content of these substances nor to remove them when present. (It is currently ahnost impossible to obtain a stock diet free of these substances without the most rigorous precautions.) (7, 17, 19, 34, 40, 41, 65, 68, 75, 79, 82)."

    "Observations on the storage of DDT in human body fat and its excretion in mother's milk, in all series of cases studied from many parts of the United States, indicate that only a small fraction of the population has thus far escaped such storage (17, 19, 63, 70, 75, 79, 82, 89). DDT is known to inhibit heart muscle cytochrome oxidase, for instance, in extremely low amounts (63); it can be seen then that this one factor alone may cause serious initial ailments. And because the tissue storage is tenacious (89) and exposure universal, it also causes serious interference with attempts at correction of the basic enzymatic disturbances."

    "Careful questioning of the patient as to direct or indirect exposure to chemicals and drugs known to interfere with enzylnatic oxidation, is often of par and the amounts importance to successful nutritionaI therapy."

    "The estrogens are now known to use up the B vitamins in their detoxification in the liver (1, 8, 9, l l , 20), hence can produce lesions of avitaminosis and exacerbation of those already present. This too may occur despite nutritional therapy previously adequate."

    "Restoration of healthy self-regulatory mechanislus should be the primary aim of nutritional therapy. This can only be accomplished by supplying simultaneously all the necessary macro- and micronutrients in sufficiently intensive but not excessive amounts and in reasonable proportion. Nutritional products of modern chemistry are highly useful in this endeavor but at the present state of technology they can only supplement and not replace complete natural sources of nutrients."
  4. Check out the previous post, what a coincidence!
  5. So one aspect of energetic respiration is excitation to momentum, and this requires a change in the space created by the nervous tones of critical tissues. Glutamatergic excitation is one part of this sunny-side-up balancing act, and conversion into GABA (via GAD enzymes, etc.,) is the other part of the moons-over-my-hammy circus.

    Vitamin A encourages tissues towards the properly timed expression of this cycle, and can increase expression and production of GAD. GAD requires, as cofactors, a large fraction of water solubles (especially pyridoxine.) So in tissues that are unable to relax and balance without significant difficulty, water solubles may help to encourage the lysis of levitated stasis.

  6. @Amazoniac Thank you very much for all this! I have been spontaneously eating much more liver and a week or so ago added soft boiled eggs back to my diet and these changes have made a considerable difference in how I feel. I really appreciate the information you share.
  7. Ditto that.

    :+1 :yeahthat :thumbsup:
  8. ☝☝ ♡

    It has to be a liver extract somehow (for regular supplementation), otherwise copper would be limiting its consumption even before iron. Maybe it's more sustainable when people are supplementing thyroid or have very robust metabolisms.
    What do you mean by this?
  9. Priceless. And She is priceless.
  10. A priceless clue that there are trace minerals missing in the story (due to the generalized depletion) is when the smell of seeds (legumes, whole grains or nuts) starts to become interesting. It's very likely that there are specific ones missing from the diet. They mentioned that liver will also take care of these. On the hands of the others, here they mentioned that 45-75g of liver are used for such supplement, so you'll have at least 4mg of copper each day (given that the usual source is beef) + diet. That's [glitter]a lot[/glitter]!
  11. Interestingly enough, on my own, I had intuitively come to similar conclusions in this awesome thread you started: eating whole foods over isolated supplementation.

    Over the last month greatly reduced my supplements and even stopped NDT as I feel no need for it at the moment. I buy liverwurst from US Wellness Meats and along with my husband eat a “container” of it - like 8 ounces over the course of 3 or 4 days maybe once every three or four weeks. This seems nourishing and not over eaten or even somehow under eaten.

    Seriously food seems the way to go for deep thorough slow healing. Of course eating Ray friendly foods, including starch, like potatoes, with a few more veggies thrown in - skipping all wheat and grains except for organic, white Jasmine rice has been the secret to really improving my health.
  12. PS...thank you for the pdf :):
  13. Very informative indeed. So, basically dessicated liver would be a required addition to B-complex supplement for people with liver issues. I am waiting on a liver extract to arrive from one of our suppliers and if it dissolves well I will release as a new product. It should go very well with thyroid and of course the B vitamins.
  14. :clapping:
  15. YaY.
  16. This thread got me thinking about desiccated liver again, and I came across a company called Ancestral Supplements. They sell not just desiccated liver but desiccated kidney, thyroid, pancreas, prostate, intestines/tripe, heart, brain, trachea, gall bladder, spleen, thymus, bone marrow, and adrenals! All from grass-fed NZ cattle. And the reviews on Amazon are overwhelmingly positive for all the products (as well as the customer service). I've just ordered the liver and pancreas to try.
  17. This is from one of the excerpts

    The fallacy of administering mixtures of crystalline vitamins alone in nutritional deficiency is illustrated by the experiments of M. S. and G. R. Biskind (1942, 1944) illustrated in Figs. 1 and 2 (p. 152). In these experiments it was possible, by producing deficiency of all the factors of the B complex, to impair the estrogen-inactivating function of rat livers that appeared perfectly normal histologically. However, by administering a mixture of thiamine, riboflavin, pyridoxine and calcium pantothenate as the sole source of B vitamins, the estrogen-inactivating function could be restored but these rats all developed fatty livers containing focal areas of necrosis. This principle is further illustrated by a recent clinical report of T. and J. Gillman (1945) who studied liver biopsies in infantile pellagrins before and during nutritional therapy. The use of a mixture of thiamine, niacin and ascorbic acid or of riboflavin and niacin in these patients not only failed to effect histologic improvement in the fatty livers (which resembled morphologically the rat livers illustrated in Fig. 2 of this review) but caused actualy aggravation of the hepatic lesions.

    So why do defunct livers that have had their estrogen-activating ability restored begin to show signs of damage?
  18. Because deranged estrogen metabolism is one of the consequences of a more of the primaries problem.
  19. So what is the primary problem? If I'm understanding it correctly, these mice were raised deficient in water solubles, and lost their ability to bind and excrete estrogens. It seems prolonged depletion of these solubles induce changes in the organism, see this
    Maybe this is true for livers? So it looks like the livers ability to bind and excrete is restored by the solubles, but this may lead to liver damage which the solubles might aggravate? What has changed? I think it has to do with adrenergic innervation of hepatocytes and reduced sympathetic drive, but it's pure speculation.

    Role of β-adrenergic receptors in regulation of hepatic fat accumulation during aging

    Propranolol, a β-adrenoceptor antagonist, worsens liver injury in a model of non-alcoholic steatohepatitis.

    I wonder if administering a beta-agonist like clenbuterol along with the solubles might prevent the increased tendency towards liver damage?
  20. I usually omit these kind of passages on purpose because if you are prone to a hopeless mind of the sets, the guru can hold on to relatable (yet improbable) parts.

    One idea of this thread is to stress that once a nutrient deficiency appears, it starts affecting everything in cascade, and at some point you have a generalized depletion and the body turns on the conservation program for the goods. When you add isolated pieces for extra support in attempt to restore normal function, it has the risk of creating more distortions if the rest isn't covered. There is also the fact that a chronic deficiency implies stress, which increase the demand for support; when you add those nutrients a and synchronous and ly, they're used up so fast that (by the time the next is supplemented) it will no longer have the other needed pieces.

    From the second publication:

    "Another misconception is that deficiencies of single factors occur in human beings. This has been perpetuated mainly by some erroneous propositions commonly expressed in the literature on nutritional research. "Thiamine deficiency, "niacin deficiency," "riboflavin deficiency," and the like are used in publications under the assumption that they refer to pure uncomplicated deficiencies of single factors. Yet at the present state of nutritional research the impossibility of attaining this desirable end with any single vitamin is manifest. Obviously, until all the essential elements have been isolated and made available in sufficient quantities for supplementation of a vitamin-free basic diet, it is not possible to omit just one element without complicating the deficiency by the lack of all the essential elements yet unknown or unavailable. Thus, to produce "thiamine deficiency" an animal would be placed on a vitamin-free diet to which has been added all the available pure vitamins except thiamine. The deficiency produced is a deficiency of thiamine plus that of all the other factors not yet isolated. Added to this is the fact that a deficiency of this type is rapidly complicated by loss of other essential substances from the body stores. And, when thiamine is administered to such an animal and an effect noted, this cannot be assessed as an uncomplicated function of thiamine. It merely indicates what thiamine can do (within the the limits of the experiment) in the absence of other essential factors. When all the essential nutrients have been isolated it will he necessary to re-assess the functions of each."

    "For many years, investigators with experience in nutritional disorders have stressed the necessity for complete therapy. This of course requires the inclusion in the therapeutic regime of an adequate amount of a satisfactory source or the as yet unidentified essential factors. In the course of developing an adequate nutritional regime, Spies suggested some years ago, a "basic vitamin formula," consisting of thiamine, riboflavin, ascorbic acid and niacinamide. Inherent in the choice of the name "basic" was the intention that a preparation of this type be used only as the framework of the regime and that other substances, including an adequate natural source of nutritional factors, be added to it as the condition of the patient requires. But a further development soon supervened. Vitamins A and D were added to this preparation, to which of course there is no objection; but unfortunately, the new product was for a long time called "therapeutic vitamin formula." This name no longer carried the connotation of incompleteness and an amazing tendency rapidly developed into widespread practice for the use of such preparations as the sole source of nutritional elements. Many physicians administer such preparations under the impression that they provide all the important vitamins. As a result numerous therapeutic failures occur and nutritional conditions which would have been responsive to adequate therapy are considered to be other than avitaminotic in origin or to be completely refractory. This has repeatedly been observed by the author, who has seen numerous patients thus treated with a therapeutic vitamin formula over long periods who derived little or no benefit or who actually became worse. Simply adding desiccated liver or suitable liver fractions to the regime invariably has resulted in a dramatic and lasting improvement, often evident within a few days."
  21. @Diokine
    Those were kind words. Do you find the highlights distracting or helpful? Sometimes I find they interfere with the entire paragraph, but I'm not sure if I want to defy Makrosky: he forced me to do this.

    There is the conserving route for recovery, in which the person must slow everything down and hopefully the coma pays off over time and the person is able to regenerate. But people usually choose the stimulating path, which is great only as long as there's broad coverage.

    Casein is an example. It's very anabolic, but if the person is depleted, it will deplete the person further in a way that it was preferable to avoid it. This is why there has to be a foundation for therapeutic supplements to work, and when there is, even though the need for specific nutrients will be elevated for some time, no extreme amounts will be needed.

    I sent this to Zeus and thought that others might be interested.
    Of course, Gerson in his book:

    "The nuclei of liver cells contain a greater amount of nucleic acids which have to be broken down to uric acid and purin bases. The favorable results obtained with a saltless diet and of liver therapy in the form of raw liver, liver injections, and best with liver juice exceeded by far the results seen by the application of the normal nutrition plus the usual liver therapy.

    Practical experience taught us that in malignancies it is advisable to apply immediately larger doses of liver juice and injections with the crudest liver extract like Lilly . No. 370 3cc. combined with vitamin B12 1cc. equal 50 mcg. Vitamin B12 seems to help the body make the correct use of amino acids, so that they will not be burned unnecessarily but used instead for constructive purposes. In cancer, it is one of the essential processes to restore the conditions under which foodstuffs can be used in the correct manner. In the last seven to ten years we treated a great number of patients, mostly difficult or terminal cases, with relatively favorable results."

    "Liver can be taken as nourishment even by those allergic patients who are highly hypersensitive to animal proteins; as therapy, however, liver nutrition is not sufficient, but must be supported by a more specific liver therapy. Where stronger liver stimulation appears necessary, as in cases of serious intoxication and degenerative diseases, extensive liver injections and liver juice therapy are necessary. The combination of liver therapy and diet was necessary in serious cases of osteoarthritis, asthma, angina pectoris and malignancies. The combination of a saltless diet, poor in fat and proteins, with the liver therapy, regularly lowers the blood sugar considerably, so that the diet increased the effect of the liver enzymes, increased the effect of insulin, and decreased the adrenalin effect to a great extent. Accqrding to Ernst Leupold, the lowering of the blood sugar level is of great significance in cancer patients, and the decrease of the adrenalin effect is regarded so important, that in the last decade even both adrenals were removed by operation, which is too radical and prevents the restoration."

    "The fresh calfs liver juice contains the highest amount of oxidizing enzymes, most of the minerals of the potassium group, especially a high content of iron, copper and copalt, as well as hormones and vitamins in the best activated composition. The liver juice is prepared from equal parts of fresh (not frozen) young calf's liver and carrots. Do not add any medication to liver juice in order not to change the pH."

    "Cut 1/2 lb. fresh unwashed, NOT FROZEN, young calf's liver into 1" strips, (weight of entire liver 2 1/2 to 4 lbs.) Add 3/4 lb. of whole fresh carrots (not those in plastic bags3) and one small apple.

    Take alternate portions of liver and carrots and grind twice•, mix well.

    FOR PRESSING -- put 2 white paper napkins•, each folded in half, crosswise on moistened cloth. Place 2 tablespoons of mixture in center of napkin. Fold 4 sides of napkin over mixture, then fold cloth in the same way and press. Repeat process until all is pressed, each time taking new paper napkins. Drink IMMEDIATELY and take some orange juice after. Use nylon cloth 12" square.
    If you cannot get fresh liver daily", buy double the amount. Use half at once and save the other half unwashed in a tightly covered glass jar in refrigerator, above freezing -- 36°F. (DO NOT FREEZE) for the next day.

    • No medication in liver juice."

    "Ask butcher for 'bob veal liver'"​





    In my opinion, a liver extract is preferable to whole liver because copper will be a limiting nutrient, followed maybe by vitamin A. Juicing it might normalize the content for daily consumption.
  22. This is all music to my dog's ear and tastebuds. I wish I were he.
  23. Great thread. The Biskinds have earned a place on the RP reading list.
  24. @Amazoniac thank you for your tireless work. Priceless. We need to stop reinventing the wheel.

    Thank you for posting the liver juice recipe. I used to give raw liver juice to my children when they were little. I think I will re-introduce it. Is it any wonder diabetes is rampant.
  25. They work in the quality department: if they happen to refuse a piece of meat, you can bet it has something wrong with it. Do they refuse powdered meat?

    The Clinical Significance of the Interrelation of Nutrient Factors - ScienceDirect

    "Let us first consider the ramifications of vitamin A. The two physical signs most clearly associated with avitaminosis A are impaired adaptation to darkness and hyperkeratosis. However, Stewart2 reported that daily doses of 150 mg. of ascorbic acid produced as great an improvement in dark adaptation as did daily doses of 24,000 I.U. of vitamin A. Furthermore, good adaptation was invariably shown by subjects with a dietary history adequate for vitamins A and C. Poor adaptation was associated with a low intake of both of these substances. Vitamins A and C are also partially interrelated in that the blood and liver content of ascorbic acid was less than half of normal in experimental vitamin A deficiency, while scorbutic signs could be aggravated by increasing the protein content of the diet in avitaminosis A.3"

    Several reports have shown that hyperkeratotic lesion, similar to those seen in avitaminosis A, may be found in scurvy and niacin deficiency. The skin apparently may also reflect a disturbance in fatty acids and pyridoxine. If, as has been suggested,4 pyridoxine is connected with the utilization of unsaturated fatty acids we can see how a single lesion may be the result of an inadequate amount of two or more unrelated nutrients.

    Vitamin A, furthermore, is partially dependent on vitamin E. Adequate hepatic stores of vitamin A require a sufficient intake of vitamin E. Curiously, however, cod liver and other fish oils (which contain vitamin A) can destroy vitamin E in the intestines, if fed within a few minutes of each other.5 Here riboflavin enters the picture, for it can counteract this deleterious effect of marine fatty acids under certain conditions.

    In addition, a number of investigators have shown that in the presence of vitamin A deficiency large doses of vitamin D produced toxic changes which did not occur if adequate amounts of vitamin A were given.

    Vitamin A also plays a role in protein metabolism. It is essential for the growth of tissue (protein) in young rats, but not for its maintenance in adulthood. It has been said that vitamin A is held in the liver in the form of a protein complex. Alcohol invariably hastened the depletion of hepatic vitamin A stores, probably by lowering the liver component to which the vitamin is attached.

    It also appears that in patients with cancer an adequate intake of choline is necessary for normal lipid metabolism before vitamin A can be utilized.6 Thus we have seen that vitamin A is directly involved in the metabolism of choline and vitamins C, D and E."

    "Riboflavin deficiency undoubtedly results in cheilosis. However! This clinical sign is not "specific" for ariboflavinosis. Machella, 7 for example, found improvement in nine of thirteen cases of cheilosis on pyridoxine alone. The other four also failed to respond to riboflavin administration. In fact, vitamin C produced healing in two cases which had not responded to the entire B complex group.

    Corneal vascularization may be due to riboflavin deficiency. Kruse8 believes this is specific. However, it has been shown that the lesion merely means that at one time a deficiency of riboflavin occurred and trauma such as wind or dust may reactivate its presence. This vascularization may be a nonspecific response to a general vitamin deficiency. In Similar lesions have been described in experimental deficiencies of vitamin A, tryptophane, lysine, zinc and sodium.Eleven That the same lesion may be produced by multiple deficiency (Table 1) was further shown by Sydenstricker and his associatesTwelve in rats where corneal vascularization followed the lack of anyone of the ten essential amino acids as well as pyridoxine and pantothenic acid.

    Tongue changes have long been considered a specific B complex lesion. However, Bakwin and othersThirteen reported that in a group of sixty children with glossitis and fissures of the tongue even prolonged (as much as two years!) and adequate nicotinamide therapy produced a very slow, irregular response if at all. Furthermore, the diets of these children did not differ significantly from those with normal tongues and they concluded that it has not been proved that these common tongue lesions are caused by aniacinosis. Others14 also caution against the concept of a typical pellagra glossitis or "riboflavin tongue."

    Riboflavin and niacin are essential in the assimilation of protein and in its resynthesis into tissue protein. The site of this interaction is probably in the liver, for the hepatic content of those substances was increased by feeding a high protein diet and not by excessive feeding of the vitamins themselves. Thiamine did not join this group, for it varied directly with its dietary intake.15

    Niacin alone of the B group can alleviate the severity of choline deficiency in rats.16 Many other relationships between these members of the water-soluble group exist. Thus, in a deficiency of thiamine, riboflavin or vitamin A, but no pyridoxine, there is a reduction in the vitamin C content of tissue.17 Another example is the findings that thiamine and pantothenic acid deficiencies interfere with riboflavin mobilization in the liver.18

    At times, however, the administration of one member may produce a deficiency syndrome. This curious finding occurred when six members of the B complex group (thiamine, riboflavin, pyridoxine, niacin, choline and pantothenic acid) were fed with inositol. A syndrome developed which could only be prevented by para-aminobenzoic acid, but if paraaminobenzoic acid were added to these same six vitamins, inositol deficiency resulted.19 The explanation apparently lies in the bacterial synthesis of bacteria which will be discussed below.

    Another finding of clinical importance is that in cases of thiamine deficiency there is a disturbance in riboflavin metabolism, although the reverse does not hold true. Thus, riboflavin deficiency may exist as a result of impaired utilization in the presence of insufficient thiamine as well as a result of an intake insufficient for the body's needs.20

    Pellagra, of course, is known to be a "specific" deficiency disease. For many years the role of corn in the production of pellagra was a puzzle and challenge. It was known that aniacinosis may exist in corn eaters even when their diets contained more niacin than in other pellagra-producing diets. It was more recently found that niacin and tryptophane are essentially interchangeable. Corn protein has a very low tryptophane content and it is believed that pellagra represents a combined niacin and tryptophane deficiency. It is now known that pyridoxine (vitamin B6) is necessary for the conversion of tryptophane to niacin. Hence, it is likely that here, too, is an example of either the nonspecificity of nutritional "lesions" or better, the close interrelation of all vital stufffoods.

    The type of diet, of course, greatly affects the balance between vitamins. A high fat diet may increase the body's need for riboflavin and vitamin E but may spare some nicotinic acid.[*] Pantothenic acid deficiency becomes more pronounced on a high-carbohydrate diet than on a high fat diet, while if fat is omitted, a pyridoxine deficiency becomes more pronounced. Furthermore, the requirements for all members of the B complex group depends on the carbohydrate intake (for their role is predominantly in carbohydrate intermediary metabolism) (Table 2). But not all carbohydrates act similarly. Generally speaking, starch, lactose, glucose and sucrose in that order favor intestinal synthesis (vide infra) but that order varies somewhat with specific vitamins.21 Significantly, thiamine synthesis is depressed by rice, which itself is practically devoid of thiamine, and this may explain the prevalence of beriberi in rice-eating regions."
    *This explains the higher riboflavin content of milch. Some is lost when cheese is made. If it's no longer a high-fat food, niacin followed by the others must enter the story in greater amounts.

    "Ascorbic acid plays a role of many facets in our metabolism. While gingivitis is frequently found with lack of this vitamin, it may also be present in deficiency of vitamins A, D and niacin. Furthermore, scurvy exists without gingivitis and gingivitis in otherwise healthy individuals may not respond to ascorbic acid therapy.

    Vitamin C also favors the absorption of iron by preventing the oxidation of the ferrous form to ferric which is less readily absorbed.22 In addition, vitamin A is related to vitamin C in that the ability of cattle to synthesize vitamin C is reduced in the presence of vitamin A deficiency. The clinical value of an adequate vitamin C intake is apparent.

    Since vitamin C is necessary for the formation and maintenance of intercellular supporting tissues and vitamin D is essential for the calcification of such tissues as growing enamel dentin and alveolar bone, it may be worthwhile digesting to review what we know about that most common of all diseases--dental caries."


    "While one would like to think that nutritional deficiencies (therefore amenable to treatment) may cause caries, it is, however, frequently observed28 that caries occurs in people subsisting on an "optimal" diet and is just as frequently absent in people on a nutritionally deficient diet. In fact, it has even been suggested that there is a reduced susceptibility to dental decay in malnourished children.24 At any rate, it is more than likely that the physical nature of the diet is more important than the chemical content."

    "[..]calcium utilization is adversely affected by an excess of magnesium and oxalate in the diet. While both calcium and magnesium absorption is favored by a high phosphorus diet (as well as an acid reaction in the intestine), iron and manganese form insoluble phosphate compounds in the bowel and may therefore impair phosphorus absorption.24"

    "Follis11 has made the interesting observation that certain myocardial lesions may occur in experimental potassium deficiency, but if there should be a concomitant thiamine deficiency no such lesion appears."

    "[..]pyridoxine deficient rats had an impaired antibody producing ability."

    "[..]Even the l and d (optical rotary forms) amino acids seem to compete with each other "for the means by which cells concentrate the amino acids presented them by the extracellular fluid.34 The absence of a vitamin may affect the urinary excretion of amino acids. That is, the excretion of arginine, phenylalanine, tryptophane and histidine, for example, is increased by riboflavin deficiency but unaffected by lack of niacin.35"

    "[..]all the essential amino acids must be fed simultaneously for maximal growth in animals. After protein depletion, the increase in weight on re-feeding was retarded if protein and other nutrients were not fed at the same time. Furthermore, cataracts which develop on a tryptophane-deficient diet can be prevented only by feeding that essential amino acid simultaneously with the other amino acids."

    "These reports emphasize the vital necessity of an adequate diet, adequate in all respects and balanced so that at the same time all essential nutrients can enter the body and be used where they are needed. A house is composed of many things and many things must be available at the one time before it can be built."

    "Friedberg and Greenberg36 found that plasma amino acid levels were increased by thyroxine and adrenal cortical extract and decreased by insulin, epinephrine, estrogen, thiouracil and hypophysectomy."

    "Recently, the role of the B complex group of vitamins in estrogen metabolism has been studied. It was at first suggested that vitamin B complex deficiency impaired the liver's ability to inactivate estrogen.37 Later it was shown that the concomitant inanition was the chief factor in this effect.38 It now appears that folic acid enables the tissues to respond to estrogen. This also has been confirmed by the administration of folic acid antagonists.39"
    And from what I read, in cholin inadequacy, estrogen is needed to enhance internal synthesis. So taking extra folic acid can have that effect.

    "On the principle that if 1 mg. of thiamine is good, 100 mg. is 100 times better, many physicians are prescribing excessive quantities of one or several vitamins. However, many years ago, it was noted that if thiamine alone were used in the treatment of multiple dietary deficiencies, the symptoms of an acute niacin deficiency may occur; while the administration of niacin alone to pellagrins aggrevated certain signs presumably due to other nutritional deficiencies."

    "Recently it was shown41 that when patients with pernicious anemia and sprue were treated with folic acid, various signs of vitamin B complex deficiencies appeared only to disappear after liver therapy. Here, again, we see the importance of balance in the administration of nutrients."

    "A metabolic antagonist of particular clinical importance is that of a coumarin derivative (isolated originally from spoiled sweet clover) which prolongs the prothrombin time by interfering with the function of vitamin K. Structurally, vitamin K is very similar to one-half of the symmetrical configuration of Dicumarol."

    "Young and James47 found that vitamin C was destroyed by E. coli and A. aerogenes under both aerobic and anerobic conditions, but in the presence of fermentable carbohydrate (i.e., glucose) that vitamin was protected from microbic decomposition.48 From this one can expect that avitaminosis C will occur if insufficient carbohydrate is presented to an intestine harboring a luxuriant growth of these common organisms."

    "On the other hand, folic acid, biotin and para-aminobenzoic acid are synthesized by bacteria as their fecal and urinary excretion often exceeds the intake.49 Moreover, there is experimental evidence that bacterial synthesis of thiamine, riboflavin, niacin and pyridoxine may occur. In fact, the presence of relatively insoluble carbohydrates such as dextrin or starch may provide a substrate for added bacterial synthesis of these vitamins, for the vitamin requirements of animals was reduced by feeding this type of carbohydrate. Another example of the effect of the type of diet on bacterial synthesis of vitamins is the report that a high proteid diet tends to suppress riboflavin synthesis, but thiamine synthesis in the intestine is enhanced by dextrose."

    "Even under identical conditions of diet and environment, however, there is a wide variation in the quantities which one individual can synthesize as compared with another. Indeed, intestinal bacterial synthesis may reach high levels. Thus, Najjar and his co-workersso reported that on a riboflavin-free diet for over three months no clinical or chemical signs of deficiency occurred in human subjects. It is assumed that bacterial synthesis supplied this essential nutrient."

    "This brief review of the highlights of a massive literature on nutritional interrelationships emphasizes two concepts.
    (1) The results of experimental single nutritional deficiencies show widespread effects of metabolic disorders. This can readily be understood by remembering the function of vitamins, to mention only one group of nutrients (Table 2). These essential metabolites by virtue of their place in intermediary metabolism directly or indirectly influence every tissue and structure of the body.
    (2) Every nutrient affects and in return is affected by every other nutrient because our body is like a vast city in which the carpenter depends on the cobbler for shoes, and the cobbler on the carpenter for his bench and both on the baker for bread.

    Clinically, a pure single nutritional deficiency is a theoretical improbability or even impossibility, although such disorders may be predominantly of one type or another. The treatment of these deficiencies, whether due to decreased supply or increased demand, or both, involves not only replacement of the primary substance but also the administration of all interrelated nutrients, for each essential metabolite is its brother's keeper.

    We have seen that certain clinical lesions, formerly said to be "specific" for a nutrient insufficiency, may be caused by several avitaminoses. Most vitamins and amino acids are interrelated and one may substitute in part for the other. Minerals as well as vitamins are greatly affected by the type of diet consumed.

    Nutritional factors are affected by hormonal changes and in turn affect the endocrine system. Antimetabolites have been discovered and perhaps are important clinically in inducing or aggravating deficiencies. Furthermore, bacterial synthesis of vitamins at all times must be considered in the total nutritional picture.

    Because, for optimal effect, all essential nutrients must be available to the body at the same time, all therapeutic considerations must include the time element. Excessive and unbalanced administration of vitamins may precipitate other avitaminoses."
  26. Thank you amazoniac. These two paragraphs really ressonated with me.. if there is anything I have learned for sure with all the supplements I have bought is that anything taken in isolation will eventually imbalance the body. I like how much focus This imortant point has over at hackstasis. Although it also means everything is constantly uncertain when it comes to supplementing.. Eating enough and as varied a diet as possible seems the best approach to me if one suspects a deficiency :)
  28. Good points! The problem as I see it is determining exactly what to "overdose" on.. One winds up having to take bolus amounts of so many nutrients to avoid creating more imbalance.. slow and steady I reckon will win that race, although your quotes above say: maybe not-so-much.. :)

    Even hair testing which is quite the thing on the beforementioned forum is somewhat (read: very) confusing as once does not know what goes on inside the cell and what is dumped.. Even our former (now banned) guru recently said so.
  29. I agree it makes one think but doing anything becomes very difficult. It does seem to me that high-carbs diet may require b-vitamins assistance.
  30. Yeah while liver has helped, for me I needed more than that especially as liver has way more vitamin A than I felt comfortable with. Lately I have had a craving for sprouted grains and whole grains in general (after 6 years of mostly avoiding). I like to follow my craving when it comes to foods like that.
  31. What is a crystalline vitamin?
  32. First of all, I must say that I'm not intimidated by pinschers, but I am by territorial enbiggened dobermanns, pitbulls, rottweilers, german sheperds, @boxers and maybe alaskan malamutes. When I'm faced by one of them I just pretend that I don't feel threatened and pray inside that they correspond. I look away but only as far as I can keep monitoring while thinking about the next element of the environment that I'm going to use as self-defense weapon. I also feel the urge to speed up the walking pace but arrest it to not instigate chasing. But this has nothing to with your post.

    I think the vitamins directly involved in cellular respiration require extra supplementation, but they will only work if the base is increased as support.


    Going the slow route can set people back on every stimulation or stress, this is one of the problems in choosing the conserving path. It's still a better bet than not backing up the boosting route because in a short time it can leave the person in a worse condition than before.

    When I mentioned Gerson above, it wasn't Gerson Biskind, it was Max:

    "Q. Is cancer a state of reaction of unrestrained excessive factors of certain hormones working on various degenerated organs or tissues?

    A. No, I don't think so. There is much more, and to answer that question I have to go deeper into the problem. We have to separate the state of pre-cancerous condition from the state where the cancer appears. In the pre-cancerous condition, all is prepared. The liver is sufficiently damaged and the other organs of the intestinal tract are damaged enough and then later the symptoms appear. Until then we have the pre-cancerous condition and this condition cannot be cured with hormones and enzymes, etc. We can to a certain degree stimulate the liver with hormones. We can stimulate the liver with cortisone. We can stimulate the liver with adrenaline, etc., but then we take out the last reserves. We empty the liver instead of refilling it. What we have to do in cancer--a degenerative deficiency disease--is to refill the organs which are empty and poisoned. Therefore it is almost a crime to give cortisone and the other stimulants which will take away the last reserves and improve the condition for a short while only."​

    Isolated/pure vitamins, can be synthetic or extract.
  33. Since this discussion has been about a comprehensive approach, I think it's worth mentioning @j. and his valuable finding:

    These guys resorted to topical application (with success) because they were dealing with skin lesions that weren't responding to oral treatment.

    "[..]in certain diseases there may be a metabolic defect in the epidermal cells so that oral or parenteral administration of the vitamin fails to reach the affected site."​

    These are specific needs. The lesions healed only where the supplement was applied, which means that there wasn't a problem with absorption. It's always preferable to ingest them for better systemic affects et distribution, first passing through the liver (and nourishing it); unless there are problems such as extreme malabsorption or infection.
    Do the checkings for yourself:





    "[..]vitamin D is utilized as efficiently when topically administered as when fed orally."
  34. I have been doing the thoughts on the problem of gradual vs abrupt decline. Gradual decline allows time for adaptation and people barely feel the daily insidious insults. It has been a reason for the 'Dietary sources of acids' thread. This is a problem because when people have a waking up the call one day, the situation is almost out of control and more difficult deal with. Gradual decline also affects the drive to do something about it.

    Diokine and pboy's posts always had the will component in mind, and I guess they're right because that helps guide gurus in the right direction by aligning their bodies and aiding with more sensible decisions (not wasting time, trusting intuition and reactions, getting encouragement from every little progress, etc).

    People that have a 'recovered' picture often have a before picture which they took it in a way that clearly tells you it was the moment they made up their minds that they were going to improve, it isn't usually a random lost photo, it's a robotic posture with a marking purpose.

    A lot of animal research are done in a traumatic fashion, those experiments have less relevance for chronic degenerative conditions in which it's required to correct everything that got affected with the gradual decline.
  35. Interesting thoughts on gradual decline. I think this points to an important point often missed. This is where overtime, I have seen the biggest difference hanging out under the Ray umbrella, though occasionally I sneak out like today with a totally tasty handmade guacamole...yes true that. :eek
  36. I wish I knew which substances could be applied locally for me to get over skin lesions I have had for 2 yrs and 1 yr. I tried niacinamide, povidone, and just recently baths with sodium thiosulfate, borax and baking soda then applying ACV. It seems to be fungal. Hoping the ACV clears it out. It has scabbed up and got pretty angry. Awesome thing is the only parts that scabbed are the parts with the infection healthy skin doesn't get irritated at straight ACV.
  37. Most problems are induced in them in an acute way: by some strong car and cinogen. Researches aren't willing to wait for the gradual weakening, generalized depletion and spontaneous onset.

    Some people are exposed to such strong nargicocens and these are the cases which have some chance of recovering by taking extreme measures, such as fasting. But for most, they will only do the further weakenings.
    It's probably an issue of vitamins A and D insufficiency or imbalance, or all the nutrients required for them to work. Too much vit C affects trace minerals, you can be missing zinc, copper, selenium, molybdenum (gbolduev, 2017), etc. Every time I consumed more vit C than I needed, I had to do the compensatings for them later on. You've mentioned cravings for whole grains, right? This tends to be a classic sign of missing trace minerals.
    You can also try this. Heat lamps might fry the region.

    The Addition of Choline to Parenteral Nutrition
    "Orally ingested nutrients generally are absorbed readily from the intestines and shunted to the liver for metabolism via the portal circulation (the first-pass effect). However! When nutrients are infused intravenously, they are not delivered to the liver via the portal vein initially, but via the hepatic artery after passing through the heart. The variation in nutrient assimilation may affect nutrient metabolism and downstream metabolic products. When methionine, a precursor for choline that normally is supplied in PN, is infused systemically, cysteine, similar to choline, a downstream metabolic product of the hepatic transsulfuration pathway, was virtually undetectable even in normal volunteers.13 When methionine was infused enterally in those same volunteers, plasma cysteine concentrations were slightly lower than when consumed with a meal, but substantially greater than that which resulted from systemic methionine infusion. This landmark investigation showed that the hepatic transsulfuration pathway is impaired when substrate is provided via the systemic rather than the portal circulation. The observation of Stegnik and Besten13 was later observed in patients who required parenteral feeding.14"
  38. Hi Janelle, have you tried an antimicrobial herbal formula (internally)? Or a healing and drawing salve containing anti-fungal herbs? We were using one on my dog's tumor (open wound) which worked well. I just checked the jar and it contains:
    • Goldenseal root
    • Horsetail
    • Calendula flower
    • Plantain leaf
    • White oak bark
    • Comfrey leaf and root
    • Slippery elm bark
    • Oregano oil
    • Aloe 100:1
    They're in a base of a few different oils like coconut oil. I used it when I had the rash from the mold and I found it soothing.
  39. I wish I knew which ones! And I wish it was the vitamin C but my first itchy rash occured about 6 months before I started C. It came on as terrible itching around my anus then as I scratched and scratched it spread into a scaly rash around it. I briefly tried UVB light and it disappeared only to come back seemingly stronger than before! I am getting more sunlight than I have ever in my adult life lately (dminder app says I've gotten over 15k IU today alone). Then last yr I was wearing ear plugs at night and developed the same scaly itchiness in my ears. Then right as I was moving out of my moldy house a patch appeared on my eye lid. I got rid of it with Nystatin then it came back so I burned it with ACV. The other areas are so hard to treat due to the sensitive nature. I am considering a zinc/copper supplement. The topical diaper rash cream seems to help but not take it away.

    That looks like an awesome topical! I have used calendula and it's soothing but doesn't take it away, definitely need something super strong for this thing! Where did you get that? I sometimes think I developed inverse psoriasis. I haven't tried internal antimicrobials besides the ACV in the last several days. I'm determined to wipe this out. I should say though my recent efforts with the diaper rash cream and acv has controlled the itching.
  40. I'm glad you're finding some relief with the diaper rash cream and ACV, @Janelle525.

    This is the balm we were using on Bee:

    Healing Salve | Our Botanicals Worldwide

    I noticed there's also an anti-fungal salve:

    Anti-Fungal Salve | Our Botanicals Worldwide

    We also used Heal All tea applied to his tumor and given orally and it saved his teeth and gums, no exaggeration!

    Heal All Tea | Our Botanicals Worldwide

    It was originally developed as a douche so it's safe to use around the rectum and would eliminate the greasiness that can come from the balms, if that matters.
  41. How's your gut?
  42. Ok great thank-you I will check it out!
  43. Hard to say. I feel like it's better. I used to have cramping bowel movements that hurt worse than childbirth! Haven't had that in a long time. My bloating is way down since starting the ACV and BS.
  44. @Janelle525 skin issues can be extremely frustrating and worrisome. Did you have the skin issues before your pregnancies? Throughout childhood? Eczema and dermatitis?

    The first step is to rule out a nickel sensitivity. I have worked with small children who had nappy rash and terrible eczema. One little boy was addicted to chocolate and peanut butter. His behaviour was uncontrollable after consuming chocolate.

    Usually, you will find the skin issues in the mother, grandparents. It is a familial condition. I would not say genetic as it is a nutritional deficiency passed along the generations.

    Riboflavin deficiency supposedly is difficult to achieve unless you are malnourished or alcohol drinker. It is assumed we get plenty from eating fortified breads and cereals.

    People on this forum have removed these foods from the diet, placing them at risk of not getting the required amounts. It is interesting your craving for grains. Many people also have problems with milk and dairy. These are the two biggest sources and yes many are not eating liver which is a huge source of riboflavin.

    Riboflavin is required to activate B6, convert tryptophan to niacin and other other B vitamins to help your body use the energy you get from food. It helps the body to use protein in food to build new cells and tissues, thus extremely important for skin.

    Peat has mentioned turnip greens, these are good vegetable sources of riboflavin. along with milk, cheese, yogurt, beef and poultry.

    Like other B vitamins, riboflavin is easily lost when foods are cooked or processed. When you cook rice or pasta, the riboflavin is lost into the water. Then if you rinse rice or pastas you wash off the B2. So to keep the riboflavin you need from these foods, it is important not to rinse after cooking. When you cook vegetables, use only a small amount of water and keep the lid on so that riboflavin and the other B vitamins are not lost.

    Riboflavin is also light sensitive. Milk that sits in clear bottles on supermarket shelves exposed to continuous light lose B2. Best to buy milk packaged to prevent light penetration.

    B2 protects skin and eyes from sun exposure. Are your eyes sensitive to light/sun?

    More importantly, it is required for thyroid hormones, detoxification of many environmental pollutants, getting rid of estrogens and much much more. I think riboflavin requirements are underestimated due to the increased environmental pollutants. It is heavily required for phase 1 detoxification pathways. Perhaps for those individuals that have a very fast phase 1 pathway, deplete riboflavin more rapidly than those who have a slower phase 1 liver detox pathway.
    Office of Dietary Supplements - Riboflavin

    Riboflavin deficiency looks very similar to hypothyroidism.

    Are you on thyroid hormones?

    I found combining liver + nutritional yeast + shellfish + dairy + carrot salad + keeping foods high in nickel to a minimum to work nicely in dealing with skin issues.
  45. Nope never had eczema just a couple times I had ringworm which was easily treated. I typically only struggled with acne spots in my life. My parents didn't have dermatitis just acne. Leads me to believe this was a result of my health crash and the moldy home.

    B2 deficiency is a possibility, though I have supplemented several times this yr plus eaten liver. I don't drink milk. And have cut way back on ice cream this summer. I used to be on thyroid before I crashed my health a few yrs ago. Now I just take a bit of progest-e two weeks a month. I have noticed light sensitivity this summer. Though it seems a bit better since eating sprouted grains. Such a puzzle! I just keep experimenting and reading, thanks for your thoughts.
  46. When I logged my food (before I started doing more whole grains) I was always low on B5, folate, potassium, and copper was never that great unless I ate liver.
  47. :)
    I too think varied diet is probably a good idea (while avoiding specifically toxic or allergic/irritating foods). Though adding some supplements to this may be useful too sometimes.
  48. People who have issues with acne shy away from milk. Calcuim should be investigated along with B12. I would use methylmalonic acid to test B12 sufficiency.

    Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin, the body does not store it. As you digest food that contains vitamin B12, pancreatic enzymes free it to bind to a protein known as intrinsic factor. The body does not absorb vitamin B12 unless it is bound to intrinsic factor. Receptors that are in the small intestine are responsible for taking up vitamin B12 and intrinsic factor complex but can only do so when calcium is present.

    This may be one reason why Peat is a fan of calcium while others view it as a killer.
  49. That is very interesting, I have eaten quite a lot of cheese in the last few yrs, though have cut back, again in favor of foods I haven't eaten much of like whole grains. I just had some parm this evening. B12 might be another one for me. Back in college I was very malnourished for about 6 months practically lived on ramen noodles and coke, then my tongue split in the middle. It was very painful and it never went back to normal it's like a permanent scar. When I tried out the milk diet I got geographic tongue, it's mostly pink now. Anyway, I'm sure vitamin deficiencies have been a big one for me in my life.
  50. Logging foods does not tell what is being absorbed. Many variables are involved with how much an individual needs. What may be excellent for one may be totally inadequate for another. I am always surprised at what I find, even with the most robust diet and you never know unless you are testing. Certain disease conditions and metabolic states require higher nutrient levels. Women have higher needs than men in supporting a menstrual cycle, pregnancy, lactation and yes the estrogenicity issue.
  51. Yeah seriously I breastfed for 9 yrs. Two kids. That's when my health crashed. Too much refined food. I blame Peat fans. :D It's my own fault, I was doing well on a more traditional diet just struggled with low temps.
  52. It is not your fault @Janelle525, blame our idiotic health system, or rather our sick generating system.

    Breastfeeding for 9 years would have sucked you dry (forgive the pun). B-vitamins being water-soluble would deplete rapidly. Not to mention the stress of looking after little ones.
    Even on a really good varied diet, you would be blitzing through your nutrients. Slowing down thyroid production was the only option your body had to help you to start conserving nutrients.
  53. Thanks @Ella I am pretty hard on myself. And maybe that's why I get upset when people say we just need to eat a good diet and forgo supplements because maybe had I just taken enough vitamins and minerals I wouldn't have suffered so greatly. I mean I was practically bed ridden at times. To think just eating good food is enough after such depletion is nuts!
  54. Diet is only one factor. Rest/sleep and regeneration are required equal to the amount of busyness. Unfortunately, as a mum you never get to clock off, no matter how old the children. Modern day life is a killer for the modern woman. Take the pressure off and try to have more fun and recruit more help. We can't keep flogging ourselves to death and unfortunately we can't get rid of our children, husbands, parents and extended family. But we can learn to say no and let others know we need help and looking after also. Its OK to be imperfect, we are a work in progress.
  55. I totally agree! Rest was a huge part of my recovery. And for a long time I only did what I needed to do-take care of the kids. Fun for me was just getting time to myself. Lol. Now I have fun with my kids. We have a pool this summer and are right next to a park so we've been busy. And I don't crash like I used to. Though I'm still working up to flips in the pool. That can get my heart pounding if I'm not careful. I do wish I had more help back when I felt like death. I carry some resentment due to it.
  56. Well said, Ella! :):
    Mmm...yeah. It's sad when you learn that the people who you would do anything for if they were in need don't share that same attitude toward you. But then I found people who didn't know me from Adam who were really supportive and tried to help — Amazoniac always sending me info, Blossom, tara, Sue, Diane, Charlie, Narouz, pboy etc. and their kind words, and VoS. VoS was unbelievably supportive, always checking up on me and trying to help. I have a lot of love for members here and the support I was given (and still get) and thanks to them, it makes resentment hard to hold onto. It doesn't replace the need for physical help, but I hope you've found some support and comfort over the years with the forum, also. ❤️
  57. Riboflavin - Wikipedia
    "FAD is [also] required to convert retinol (vitamin A) to retinoic acid via cytosolic retinal dehydrogenase"

    I'm not((

    I guess the correction of vitamin deficiencies (especially the wasser-solubles) should precede that of trace minerals, otherwise the person can't do anything productive with those minerals and so they can become problems. It's the coral reef state.


    "To the great complexity of the biological functions of the body belongs also its capacity of adaptation. A healthy body can adapt itself to different types of nutrition. It reabsorbs the necessary minerals, vitamins and enzymes as we know from experiments to determine the time for the clinical appearance of one or another vitamin deficiency. A sick body has lost this capacity. The deficiencies cannot be restored as long as the essential organs are poisoned. That is true in cancer also, as demonstrated by clinical observations."

    "When intermediate substances are left in the body, they work as carcinogenic substances."​

    Koch often wrote similar things:

    "[..]various tissues of the body become overloaded with incompletely assimilated food products. These in turn serve as material for the support of germ growth, and for the production of poisons. They also blunt the body chemistry, cutting down its efficiency, and hampering the immunity process."

    It might sound as if that's only meant for unabsorbed nutrients, but it's not:

    "These materials are not effectively handled, they are only incompletely metabolized and remain absorbed in the cell where they hamper its normal chemistry, cut down its efficiency and serve as material for the nutrition of germs and the production of germ poisons."​

    After vitamins and electrolytes have been addressed, and there's a need for specific trace minerals that are difficult to be met by diet, then I guess the safest way to supplement is very little more often; or better yet, one or two times a week to give the body a chance to correct any imbalance. These can also be lessened by supplementing only when eating nutritious foods (example, per calorie but still useful). I'm mentioning this because it's not uncommon for people to supplement trace minerals along with meals that are poor in them, sometimes even on empty stomach, which is a waste of chance to prevent imbalances. The exception here is perhaps selenium, which doesn't seem to interact as much with the others.

    Ps: *"I found that almost all of the arthritis cases have a weak liver or damaged liver. This is also true of coronary disease."​

    It makes more sense to blame the children then. Janelle, consider hating your family.

    The Body's Vitamin B12 Store | Dr. Schweikart

    "Our bodies store greater amounts of vitamin B12 than they do for any other vitamins; an estimated 2000-4000 µg, the majority of which is found in the liver.[1-4] Theoretically speaking, the body could function on a minimum provision of 1 µg per day for up to 10 years. This is one reason why the serious effects of a vitamin B12 deficiency can take several years to become apparent."​

    But it's common to be depleted in disease.
    Buying the ways, I had this link on hold:
  58. Good luck with the ACV! Sometimes it takes a couple different approaches before that kind of thing really is defeated.

    A few worth trying:
    Before any of the following, I suggest you pre-treat area with isopropyl alcohol, helps to kill fungus and open up pores.

    1. Castor oil with baking soda, mixed to pancake batter consistency, applied as a compress and left on for a day.

    2. Bentonite clay and ACV, mix to paste consistency and apply as compress and leave on for as long it feels comfortable.

    3. Grapefruit seed extract, a couple drops in a couple ounces of water applied and allowed to dry.

    4. Pepto bismul, painted on the skin and allowed to dry.

    5. Compress of 3% hydrogen peroxide.
  59. Yes I did have some good friends on the forums, it made my situation less lonely. And gratefulness has been a big part of my recovery. Sometimes I can get caught up on woe is me, and turning back to what I am thankful for always helps. I'm glad you found the forum supportive for you!
  60. Haha, well I could never hate my family,but we have been through a lot together.

    Yeah I agree vitamins are absorbed better with other nutrients. But I don't think I'll be making veggies a big part of my diet anytime soon! Maybe boiled and the water drank. I actually like the taste of parsley juice. Kale not so much bleck!
  61. Wow thanks for the list! Those are some good ideas.
  62. Greens must have been part of people's diet on almost every part of the planet because if you think about it, even in various harsh of the climates they're still available. So if people were subsisting, greens were the least likely food to be disappearing from the diet. As long as they were edible, you would expect that there were efforts to include them to increase nutrition.
  63. That's a huge generalization!
    I disagree plants are necessary for health, especially vegetables. I agree with Peat on this issue that they are famine food. I feel worse when I include lots of vegetables, even carrots.
    "Poor people, especially in the spring when other foods were scarce, have sometimes subsisted on foliage such as collard and poke greens, usually made more palatable by cooking them with flavorings, such as a little bacon grease and lots of salt. Eventually, "famine foods" can be accepted as dietary staples. The fact that cows, sheep, goats and deer can thrive on a diet of foliage shows that leaves contain essential nutrients. Their minerals, vitamins, and amino acids are suitable for sustaining most animal life, if a sufficient quantity is eaten. But when people try to live primarily on foliage, as in famines, they soon suffer from a great variety of diseases. Various leaves contain antimetabolic substances that prevent the assimilation of the nutrients, and only very specifically adapted digestive systems (or technologies) can overcome those toxic effects."
    Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?
  65. Early Infant Exposure to Excess Multivitamin: A Risk Factor for Autism?

    "It is known that to ensure normal functioning of the nervous, immune, and digestive systems, the monoamines released from the nervous system and the gastrointestinal tract must be inactivated/degraded and eliminated in time. Monoamine-neurotransmitters, like xenobiotics (substances foreign to the body, such as pollutants, food additives, pesticides, and drugs), are metabolized through enzymatic phase I (oxidation, reduction, and hydrolysis) and phase II reactions (conjugation, e.g., methylation, sulfation, acetylation, glucuronidation, and glutathione conjugation) [18]. The characteristics of monoamine degradation are as follows:

    (1) enzymatic degradation: the degradation of all the monoamines and their precursor amino acids is enzymatic multipathway and multistep processes (Figure 1)."

    "(2) Need for methyl groups and sulfate: as shown in Figure 2, methyl groups and sulfur amino acids (e.g., methionine and cysteine) are required for the body’s detoxification and antioxidant activities (Figure 2). An adequate supply of methyl groups and sulfate is prerequisite for methylation- and sulfation-mediated monoamine-neurotransmitter inactivation. Since both the biotransformation of exogenous chemicals and the degradation of monoamine neurotransmitters share the same pool of methyl groups [22] and sulfate [23], in theory, any chemicals (such as vitamins, see the following) that consume methyl groups and/or sulfur amino acids in their biotransformation may competitively inhibit the methylation and sulfation of monoamine neurotransmitters."

    "(3) Gender differences in monoamine-neurotransmitter inactivation: as mentioned above, monoamine neurotransmitters can be inactivated either by deamination, by methylation, or by sulfation. The redundant nature of monoamineneurotransmitter metabolism enables one pathway to compensate for blockade of the other. For example, reduced or absent activity of MAO leads to a decrease in the production of deaminated metabolites and an increase in that of O-methylated amine metabolites [24, 25], while inhibition of COMT increases the production of 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid [25], a deaminated metabolite of dopamine (Figure 1). Thus, if methylation and sulfation cannot take place (e.g., due to depleted methyl-group and sulfate pools by exogenous chemicals) [22, 23], the inactivation of monoamine neurotransmitters will depend mainly on the activity of MAO.)) Importantly, the genes encoding the two isoforms of MAO are X-linked [26], and their activity is lower in males than in females [27, 28], suggesting a biological basis of sex differences in monoamine degradation. Such a sex difference in MAO activity also suggests that males might have less ability to compensate for blockade of methylation- and sulfation-mediated monoamine inactivation than females. Therefore, it is conceivable that similar levels of exogenous chemical exposure may disturb the inactivation of monoamine neurotransmitters in males more than in females."

    "Excess vitamins, like xenobiotics and monoamine neurotransmitters, are also degraded through phase I and phase II reactions and thus may increase the consumption of labile methyl-groups and sulfate. Moreover, some vitamins are known to play a role in the synthesis of monoamine neurotransmitters. For example, vitamin B6 is a cofactor for aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase that catalyzes the formation of serotonin and dopamine (Figure 1), while 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, the active form of folate, also stimulates the synthesis of monoamine neurotransmitters [29]. Therefore, excess vitamins can increase the levels of monoamine neurotransmitters either by competing for the same biotransformation system or by facilitating the synthesis, or by both. Indeed, evidence shows that high doses of vitamin C decrease plasma-conjugated dopamine and norepinephrine levels by competing for sulfation [30], whereas nicotinamide increases the levels of plasma of norepinephrine [31], serotonin, and histamine [32], presumably due to a decrease in methylation-mediated degradation of the monoamines. Vitamin B6 supplementation can increase the blood serotonin levels of newborn babies [33]. Interestingly, Berman and colleagues [34] found that maternal supplementation with vitamin B6 during the last 3 to 5 weeks of pregnancy increased the maternal blood levels of serotonin at parturition but did not increase the cord blood serotonin level or urinary 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid output in the newborn infants, suggesting that the placenta may protect the fetus from the risk of excess vitamin exposure. Although little is known about the effect of excess vitamin exposure on the neurotransmitter metabolism in the human infant brain, evidence from animal studies has shown that some vitamins can affect the metabolism of central monoamine neurotransmitters. For example, vitamin C [35] and vitamin B6 [36, 37] increase the levels of serotonin in the brain of rats. Recently, Tekes and colleagues [38] found that neonatal vitamin A or vitamin D treatment has significant influence on the metabolism of monoamine neurotransmitters in the adult rat brain. Therefore, excess vitamin exposure may be a potential risk factor for neurotransmitter metabolism disorders."

    "It has been known for over a century that the dose-response curve for many micronutrients is nonmonotonic, having an initial stage of increasing benefits with increased intake, followed by increasing costs as excesses become toxic [39]. Both vitamin deficiency and vitamin excess are known to cause toxicity, including neurotoxicity [15, 40]. A meta-analysis of randomized trials of antioxidant supplements for primary and secondary prevention suggests that supplementation of vitamin A and E may increase mortality [41]. Supplemental folic acid (the synthetic form of folate) was also found to be associated with increased mortality [42, 43]. Davis and colleagues [44] found an association between high serum thiamine levels and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS, a sudden and unexplained infant death most likely to occur between 2 and 4 months of age), and they further demonstrated that high doses of thiamine could cause death in rabbits and mice due to respiratory failure. Moreover, there is evidence suggesting an association between early infant vitamin supplementation and an increased risk of allergic diseases later in life [45, 46]. Although these data are not conclusive, they at least suggest the possibility that excess vitamin exposure may lead to serious health outcomes."

    "To date, little is known about the relationship between early infant exposure to excess vitamins and autism, except a recent hypothesis that suggests that excess folic acid supplementation may be a risk factor for autism [47]. There are two studies that examine the relationship between early vitamin exposure and learning development in rats. One found that neonatal vitamin A exposure may induce a long-lasting defect in learning [48], and the other showed that niacin supplementation induced spatial learning impairment in rats [49]. These observations suggest that early excess vitamin exposure may have adverse effects on neurodevelopment. It should be noted that the neurological effects of vitamin deficiency and vitamin excess may be similar [15]. Such a similarity could be a common cause for a wrong diagnosis. For example, SIDS was initially suggested to be related to a thiamine deficiency. To test this hypothesis, Davis and colleagues [44] compared serum thiamine levels between 233 SIDS infants and 46 control infants dying from other causes. Unexpectedly, they found that most of the SIDS infants had significantly higher serum thiamine levels. Therefore, to avoid making a wrong diagnosis, the levels of vitamins and their metabolites should be monitored."

    "It should be pointed out that some cofactors, although not belonging to vitamins, may also play an important role in the synthesis of monoamine neurotransmitters."

    "Among the possible risk factors in infant foods, such as nutritional imbalances (deficiencies and excesses) and food additives and contaminates, excess multivitamin exposure may be the most common and important."

    "For example, the content of niacin, folic acid, vitamin B6, thiamine, and vitamin C in a premature infant formula (see, http://abbottnutrition.com/products/similac-special-care-20-with-iron) is about 20 (5,000 versus 250 g/100 kcal), 9 (37 versus 4 g/100 kcal), 7 (250 versus 35 g/100 kcal), 6 (250 versus 40 g/100 kcal), and 4 (37 versus 8mg/100 kcal) times the lower limit value, respectively. The level of thiamine in some manufactured milk-based formulae (2160 g/L) was found to be about 20 times that of human breastmilk (mean 178 g/L) [44]. In addition to the vitamin supplementation of infant formula, multivitamin use in infants and toddlers is very common [16]. Thus, high-vitamin feeding may increase the risk of vitamin overload. Indeed, many studies have shown that formula-fed infants have higher levels plasma/serum of vitamins than human milk-fed infants [59–62]. Unmetabolized folic acid, a sign of folic acid overload, is observed in the serum of 4-day-old infants fed with formula [63]. Porcelli and colleagues [62] found a several times increase in the plasma levels of riboflavin and pyridoxine and a more than 10 times increase in the urine riboflavin and pyridoxine concentrations in very low-birth-weight neonates after being fed with preterminfant formula. Baeckert and colleagues [64] showed that very low-birth-weight infants who received the recommended parenteral vitamin supplement as part of their total parenteral nutrition developed elevated plasma riboflavin concentrations during their first postnatal month with peak concentrations 100-fold above baseline umbilical cord plasma vitamin concentrations. Moreover, there are two studies finding high plasma levels and urinary excretion of methylated metabolites of niacin in autistic patients [65, 66], which suggests a niacin overload, because excess niacin is rapidly degraded after ingestion, but its methylated metabolites remain longer in the circulation [31, 67]. Given that excess vitamins may lead to neurotoxicity and disturbances in monoamine neurotransmitter metabolism, as mentioned earlier, it is possible that high multivitamin exposure may play a role in the increased prevalence of autism."

    "Current understanding of the rates of maturation of metabolic capability indicates that human infants up to approximately 6 months of age are typically more sensitive to chemical toxicity than adults due to their immature detoxification systems [71]. This suggests that newborn infants, especially premature infants, may have a low tolerance to excess vitamins. Indeed, available evidence, although limited, has shown an association between high levels of some vitamins (thiamine [44] and vitamin C [72]) and apparent life-threatening events and SIDS in infancy. A randomized controlled trial on vitamin C supplementation in very preterm infants also showed that infants who died during the trial were those who had significantly higher vitamin C concentrations before randomization than surviving infants [73]. Evidence from animal studies suggests that high exposure to vitamin A [48] and niacin [49] in the early life has adverse effects on the behaviors of adult rats. Thus, it appears that high multivitamin feeding in the first few months of life may be particularly harmful. Although there is little information on the role of excess vitamins in infant brain injuries, it is common knowledge that chemical exposure-induced neurological injury may have a variety of manifestations, depending on the length and degree of exposure [74]. Notably, preterm birth is associated with increased risk for both autism and other neurological conditions, such as cognitive, visual, and hearing impairments; and there is considerable cooccurrence of autism with other neurological and cognitive disorders [75]. We therefore postulate that autism might be one of chemical/excess-vitamin exposure-induced neurological sequelae (which may range from neurological deficits to death) in early infancy. What is worthy of note is that with the maturation of metabolic function and age-related changes in feeding foods, the causal exposure present in infancy and resultant metabolic and neurological manifestations may no longer exist. This may account for why there is lack of consistent biological markers in autism. Even elevated blood serotonin, the most consistent serotonin-related finding in autism, may not be observed in adolescent autistic patients [76]."
  66. This is interesting. How were they able to study this in humans when we have never even had studies of safety of vaccines?? I mean just testing blood levels after death doesn't tell us they were overdosing at 2 months old with thiamine! Between 2-4 months is when the first round of vaccinations are given. I have found from many articles that vaccines are a plausible reason for SIDS. But autopsy reports try to leave it out.

    Also millions of babies are essentially being fed multivitamins and minerals every single feeding through formula which I believe is one of the most unnatural way of feeding a baby, but I guess some babies are so sickly they need food separated down into their parts already. I still think even the most fragile babies would benefit from donor breastmilk and some hospital NICU's would agree.

    I do agree both high and low nutrients could be an issue if given artificially, but we must be cognizant that researchers want to blame anything but vaccines for causing autism, not that I think that is the only reason but when you have thousands of parents saying how their child changed after vaccines we can't just ignore it.
  67. Uh-oh, buzzword @Travis

    Prepare for sum aluminum talk.
  68. They're just speculating as The Reader can confirm by inspecting the title. After a tiresome discussion, the authors reached a consensus that it was indeed a sagacious move to complement it with a question to deflect Janelles in the future. It's also possible to note from further careful inspection that the word 'cause' wasn't used, they opted for 'risk' instead.
  69. Haha. Yes I just wanted a reason to talk about vaccines.
  70. And I'm using your post right now to officialize that I have quoted his entire book with the following one:
  71. Very smart. I haven't taken anything in two days. I am proud of myself. I will now do muscle testing to see what my body wants. It did test okay for ascorbic acid this morning but I am seeing what happens if I take none.

    I just found out my Grandpa who is turning 96 in a week has throat cancer. :cry: He has declined treatment. I don't blame him! He's lived a long life. We all gotta go at some point.
  72. But how do you define how long is enough living? It seems to me that if the person resists society's enormous pressure in an expected death range, then the person is forgiven to live further, turning into a family's cherished mascot.
  73. I would say he was our mascot for a long time. He thought if he got to 90 he was good! So he made it another 6 yrs and who knows how long he will survive with cancer.
  74. But a cherished mascot isn't let go.
  75. Yeah maybe when his daughter and son in law moved in to help out he felt he couldn't be himself? So Chinese medicine would say he isn't able to speak his truth thus the throat chakra being off balance.
  76. Interrelationships between biotin, choline and other B-vitamins and the occurrence of fatty liver and kidney syndrome and sudden death syndrome in broiler chickens

    "[..]the addition of extra quantities of B-vitamins to biotin-deficient diets has an adverse effect on biotin metabolism and the incidence of FLKS [fatty liver and kidney syndrome]."

    "[..]choline alone, though not cyanocobalamin, can increase mortality[.]" "[..]a mixture of other B-vitamins could enhance this effect when provided in conjunction with choline[.]"

    "[..]both choline and a multivitamin supplement separately increased mortality[.]"

    "The interaction between biotin and the other vitamins takes place in the birds rather than in the diets since the biotin contents of the diets, measured at the time they were fed, were unaffected by the presence of other vitamins. Thus biotin was not destroyed by choline which is a potentially caustic substance and is known to destabilize other vitamins, especially in the presence of moisture (Klaui, 1975). The interaction between the vitamins in the bird appeared to enhance the severity of the existing biotin deficiency rather than the absolute requirement. Thus growth rate and blood PC activity were decreased and FLKS mortality was increased by supplementation of the low biotin diet but these aspects were unaffected by the presence of other vitamins in the biotin-supplemented diets."

    "Other instances of one vitamin enhancing the deficiency of another are known: in pigs, Cunha et al. (1948) found that the severity of biotin deficiency was increased by the provision of extra folic acid and cyanocobalamin. Interactions between the latter two vitamins and choline in methyl group metabolism are well documented but the relationship between biotin and choline or methyl group metabolism is obscure. However, the present results serve as a reminder that B-vitamin supplementation of poultry diets should be aimed at ensuring an adequate metabolic balance in the birds."

    "The aetiology of FLKS is well understood and involves a failure of hepatic gluconeogenesis via pyruvate carboxylase caused by a lack of biotin. When the bird is stressed or fasted, limited reserves of glycogen are consumed and a hypoglycaemia develops which results in morbidity and death in a few hours. In response to the hypoglycaemia, fatty infiltration of tissues is thought to occur (for a review of the biochemical effects of FLKS, see Bannister, 1979)."

  77. Liver is very high in B12, which is common to be depleted in sickness. Since liver extracts yield better results when injected, it's possible that it's because of B12, which requires elaborated steps for absorption and repletion can be lengthy. Chris mentioned that its active digestion has limitations, you can't absorb more than 2 mcg through it regardless of the dose. However with insane doses found in supplements, the passive absorption can be significant. Either way, once again it's better to unfurl the doses throughout the day.

    He also suggests adenosyl/hydroxy B12 in case people need to supplement, I don't know why, perhaps because he's actually getting paid.
    But it's worth considering trying some reliable form to rule out if it's not a simple B12 deficiency induced maybe by chronic stress and too much methionine from cheese without as much B12 as it's naturally found in meats.

    The next issue is the copper and vitamin A content of livers.

    Nutrition in Desiccated Liver by Vital Proteids
    Daniel also has a similar image on his page:
    Desiccated liver supplements with the fewest additives - Toxinless

    If you note, to get enough B-vitamins, you'll get a high amount of these. Multiply the serving by 10 and you'll realize that those become limiting, iron starts to annoy and you still don't get an adequate amount of B-vitamins. And that's considering a decent supplement, because there are ones on the market that are mediocre.

    Because of that, it's also possible to note why crystalline vitamins are often required. The amount of thiamin sometimes is so insignificant that doesn't even appear on the label. The niacin content isn't sufficient for its therapeutic purposes. Most of the vitamins directly involved in energy production won't be in satisfactory amounts.

    If liver sufficed, none of the approaches mentioned before would've included the crystalline vitamins as well. Sometimes the companies that prepare extracts already add them, and what they refer to as 'liver extract', is in fact a liver preparation that includes various isolated vitamins.

    On the other hand, the limiting nutrients might not be too troubling because such supplement provides everything in synergy. So it's not possible to expect an equivalent dose of isolated vitamin A to work the same way as the one given in liver.

    So it does provide a foundation, probably including some rarer trace minerals that can affect recovery.

    An aqueous liver extract might discard vitamin A* and maybe increase the proportion of wasser-soluble vitamins to minerals. And as mentioned before, this might help to normalize the copper content to some degree. Not sure. However the more processed it is, the more likely it is to damage nutrients along the way.

    *I wonder how much defatted desiccated whole livers retain.

    Gerson gave patients 2-3 juices daily of pressed 1/2 lb of raw liver (and carrots) and injections one time a day of "crudest liver extract like Lilly No. 370 3cc. combined with vitamin B12 1cc. equal 50 mcg". I have no idea how concentrated those were; with the juice, the meat probably helped to prevent mineral extraction to some degree.

    Out of curiosity because I don't know if this is safe, doesn't seem to be:
    Thankful Expressions: How to Make Desiccated Liver Capsules
  78. The trouble has been finding a way to reduce copper and some of the vitamin A for more intensive supplementation, ideally without requiring much processing due to the risk of damaging nutrients but also because it's challenging to manipulate a food leaving only what's desirable.

    For comparison, using copper as reference, the serving of the supplement above equates to 3 g of beef liver. It already has 0.4 mg of copper in as little as 3 g. (!) It's obvious that it will limit its use.

    A solution is poultry liver. It's reduced in copper and vitamin A, making it perhaps safer for therapeutic supplementation.
    Although it's reduced in copper, it has more iron. This isn't good, but may not be an issue because even if people consumed a dried amount equivalent to 100 g, that's 12 mg of iron that you can interfere in absorption. Maybe this is reduced in animals that aren't stressed.

    The main challenge would be finding a reliable source, animals that were raised with care and so on. In such animals, the fat composition shouldn't be an issue, but ultimately it can be defatted.
    Risk of infections and contamination should also be reduced, but sterilizing must be important and I don't know how that can affect nutrients. People with weakened livers might be using such supplements, and due to organ affinity, this can be a problem.

    Chicken (left) and Beef (right) - for 100 g
    (blurred but intelligible)

    upload_2018-7-26_7-24-58.png upload_2018-7-26_7-25-9.png
    upload_2018-7-26_7-25-21.png upload_2018-7-26_7-25-29.png

    The difference in selenium might disappear when animals are no longer receiving the usual supplements in feed.

    The wasser content might give you an idea of weight if it's dehydrated.

    Any opinions?
  79. I've analysed these before but added lamb liver into the mix, as the those three are very easy for me to purchase. I felt lamb liver was in the middle of the three, and tend to eat that myself. Beef liver I never felt good on, and wondered if the copper was to blame.

    Maybe something to do with the zinc copper ratio?

  80. I wish I knew! :facepalm:

    The lower B12 is not an issue unless people were to inject the supplement. I suspect chickens will have less regardless of their diet for not having rumens and a lot of bactaeria supplying it.

    The cholin is missing, I don't know why they don't include it as standard since niacin you can also synthesize.

    Indeed it might have something to do with ratio, but I don't know if there's a limit for which zinc no longer can balance. The copper content is still very high for lamb.

    The folate content in lamb liver is odd, isn't it? There must be something wrong..
  81. @Amazoniac. Heres a new one for you, using Self Nutrition data this time


    Then I'll add the one Cronometer one here for comparison too.

  82. Oh shiτ, the cholin value that I had on Cron-o-meter above (I guess you can activate it on options) was higher than that for kitchen rivel.
    But it's also different from here:
    Concentrations of Choline-Containing Compounds and Betaine in Common Foods | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

    The folate content remains high!
    Poultry feed varies more than ruminants', so it should be less predictable.

    Many thanks for taking the time to collect these.
  83. Greetings dearests,
    You can all post such interesting material faster than I can think about it, but I am most grateful regardless of that minor trifle. No, Amazoniac I do not mean the dessert, though you doubtless have the copper value for it!
    I am a somewhat wary of uncooked lamb in general because the worm burden in lamb or mutton is likely higher than in beef as the worming regimes and pasture rotation requirements can be beyond many farmers' capabilites let alone pockets. No disrespect is meant by that just that 'best practice' is problematic and the worms are more prevalent due to many factors these days.
    I think at least 6 weeks frozen first would be sensible even if one is going to do an extract; many types of worm egg are microscopic but I believe that such freezing reduces much of the hazard associated with worms at least, and that would be advised for any offal really if being used uncooked.
    Just a thought.
    Thanks again for a most interesting and important thread.
  84. @Sheila, I think the worm problem is more then people recognize especially eating out in restaurants and eating raw foods of any sorts or even “rare or medium rare” cooking for meats. My Mom always cautioned about this. I sort of grumbled at her being a bit “over the top”. Now, regrettably, I must admit her better vision and my lack of vision in this regard - lol. How the wheel of life turns...
  85. would brewers yeast be a relatively safer option for supplementing choline?
  86. Honestly, I don't know for sure. But to not leave you emptying the hands:

    Using KAL's nutritional yeast, each serving is about 3 tablespoons (20 g), providing more or less 80 mg of cholin; so around 100 mg for every 25 g of powder. If I'm not wrong, Rajesh recommends for his homemade extract about 4 tablespoons dissolved in wasser. But to make a difference, you'll need at least something like 50 g or more. This might be a problem over time since its inconventients can add up and we might turn into a yeast.
    Possibilities had been envisioned before (Saturation, 2015), and perhaps with a more complete synthetic B-vitamins supplement it's possible to get better results.

    If you search for 'chow, semipurified, synthetic diet'; some publications compare what happens to animals when they're fed different types of diet.

    But nutritional yeast is not just vitamins, it does provide some other nutrients (selenium, molybdenum, zinc, chromium, etc) in available forms as well. There might be a way of purifying it further in labs to discard most of the unwanted, but it can't be any lab to do it, it must require an ideal one.
  87. I find it much preferable to try to correct what's being difficult to get from the diet through supplements than to force-feed something you don't grave or enjoy just to hit those crimos. If it doesn't work as expected, at least your intuition and the relationship with food aren't affected in a negative way.
  88. :joyful: haha brilliant metaphor! thanks amazingniac
  89. I've edited for a better video!
  90. They look like they are having fun as well! I'd take that over a cubicle job in front of a PC any day :D
  91. They must say the same thing about your job. :ss
  92. I've left the practice of supplementation up to the birds. They seem to know what they need better than I.
    That said we have had some we've nursed back to health in the past with custard.
    Bugs are a big part of their diet in the summer, yummy!