The elusive effects of salt on androgenic alopecia?

[GorillaHead]

This is a very old study i am posting here but i find it very interesting. PDF Attached below.

The study claims that high salt intake is associated with AGA and they might be on to something.

A year ago i was searching the forums and I stumbled upon the late Travis post about aldosterone and the mineralcorticoid. He theorized that mpb could be solved by blocking the mineralcorticoid.
He presented some solid information, whether i agree 100% is still up in the air.

What grabbed my attention was the fact he talked about marine animals having high mineralocorticoid activity.

I looked at data showing that animals with high aldosterone levels were often sea mammals. The animal with the highest aldosterone was the manatee and the dolphin has some of the lowest.

interestingly enough they found high levels of elastin bundles in mpb scalp tissue.
And in this study aldosterone shows just that Aldosterone and Mineralocorticoid Receptor Antagonists Modulate Elastin and Collagen Deposition in Human Skin

So I did more research and it seems that the manatee has some of the thickest skin ever at 3 inches more than a dolphins. High collagen fibers.

mpb eventually becomes perifollicular fibrosis. High dense levels of collagen deposition.

Now aldosterone is directly related to sodium and minoxidil is a potassium channel opener.

So this got me wondering about salt content in skin.

Research shows skin has an influence over blood pressure and this was dependent on the salt tissue levels of the skin.

So apparently the body increases salt skin tissue levels when it wants to store salt.

I found out in dermatitis which is often associated with AGA that the scalp tissue has very high levels of salt.

Salt could be a key factor in allergic immune reactions

Researchers have demonstrated in cell cultures that salt leads to the formation of Th2 cells. These immune cells are active in allergic conditions such as atopic dermatitis. The team also detected elevated salt concentrations in the skin of patients.

www.sciencedaily.com

this is specifically atopic dermatitis but when this condition occurs on the scalp it becomes sebborrheic dermatitis. I read that sodium is increased in skin tissues infection Study reveals salt’s role in infection control

So it looks like salt is placed in the skin during infection and for storage.

In Chinese medicine they correlate kidneys and hairloss and some on this very forum theorized edema and Hairloss. Also high intercellular sodium is thought to perhaps cause hyper calcium influx. Tying this in with the calcification theory of the ivory dome

THE ROLE OF INTRACELLULAR SODIUM (Na+) IN THE REGULATION OF CALCIUM (Ca2+)-MEDIATED SIGNALING AND TOXICITY

It is known that activated N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors (NMDARs) are a major route of excessive calcium ion (Ca[2+] ) entry in central neurons, which may activate degradative processes and thereby cause cell death. Therefore, NMDARs are now recognized ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Clinical studies have shown an age-dependent increase in skin tissue Na+content”

New Insights on the Role of Sodium in the Physiological Regulation of Blood Pressure and Development of Hypertension

A precise maintenance of sodium and fluid balance is an essential step in the regulation of blood pressure and alterations of this balance may lead to the development of hypertension. In recent years, several new advances were made in our understanding of the interaction between sodium and blood...

www.frontiersin.org

So I beleive Travis didnt have the cure as he wasnt addressing root cause but he was most definitely onto something. Because it seems to me that sodium. Potassium. Magnesium and calcium are some of the the biggest players in AgA.

Especially sodium

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Anecdotally I seem to recall that parachuting salt had a negative effect on the feel & texture of my hair.

On the other hand everything that is estrogenic and causes bloating, water retention and so on, seems to help hair.

So who knows what's up.

 

[334c]

lately ive consumed more saturated fat (butter mostly) and also more salt - The bloating in my nose has been greatly reduced, though im not really sure if my hair has changed much. The butter also allows me to concentrate for longer periods of time.

ive started another thread on it - hopefully it can help draw some links.

More Saturated fat seems to have lessened my adhd symptoms + reduced my facial bloating.

hey, relating to edema and food consumption i was checking out edwardjedmonds blog - he emphasises the value of saturated fat in the diet - claiming glucose is a primitive and inefficient energy source) ( i think i read he was a powerlifter) ray also said that the muscles at rest consume...

raypeatforum.com

 

[334c]

.

 

[GorillaHead]

@ChemHead

 

[ChemHead]

On the other hand everything that is estrogenic and causes bloating, water retention and so on, seems to help hair.

I've started to believe that there is a separation between what we typically refer to as estrogenic sides and sides like bloating/water retention. I did some experiments quite a few years back where I injected testosterone and androstenedione (on separate occasions) while on finasteride. I did this because after a few weeks of finasteride use, it stopped working... And it worked very well. I made the assumption that it worked so well because of a sharp increase in estrogen synthesis in the skin and hair follicles and that the reason it stopped working was due to HPTA dysregulation, causing reduced overall steroid synthesis and lowered aromatase expression.

So, I injected testosterone in order to see if I could get that same "estrogenic" stimulation that I assumed caused the bloating/water retention, incredible skin, and very thick and dark hair. However, I never experienced the bloating or the improved skin and hair benefits. I did, however, experience almost complete genital numbness. So, there were certainly "estrogenic" sides, but the bloating and skin/hair benefits weren't part of those estrogenic sides. So, I believe that we typically attribute some of these effects to estrogens, when, in fact, they're actually due to an increase in a steroid that rises in parallel with estrogens (whether from taking finasteride, or if you're a women experiencing different phases of the menstrual cycle).

Now, I'm still uncertain about this because there's always the possibility that even though the injected testosterone caused an increase in estrogenic activity, perhaps aromatase expression or estrogen receptor expression was down-regulated and the skin or hair follicles were incapable of synthesizing enough estrogens locally. I do think, however, that a mineralocorticoid might be involved. I think that a mineralocorticoid is largely responsible for the water retention that women experience during their menstrual cycle and I think it's also responsible for the water retention I experienced during the first few weeks of finasteride until HPTA dysregulation occurred.

In my opinion, the key to understanding this is backtracking what occurred with finasteride. So, I've been analyzing all the possible targets of the 5AR pathway and asking myself what happens when that pathway is suddenly and sharply cut off. Cut off testosterone from the 5AR pathway and it experiences a sharp increase in concentration while steroid synthesis is still normal and the HPTA hasn't interfered. Same with androstenedione.. And an increase in those two steroids results in an increase in aromatization of them. I think most people probably have some idea of this occurring due to 5a-reductase inhibitor use.

However, what happens with progesterone? What about 11-deoxycorticosterone? Aldosterone? These are a few of the other steroids that are 5a-reduced. What happens when they are suddenly and sharply cut off from the 5AR pathway? And if you take into consideration that the concentrations of these steroids are kind of pooling from being cut off from 5AR, what happens from a broader perspective?... How are the increases in concentration each of these steroids affecting one another?

Anyway, these are just questions I've had for the past couple years. My plan is to get ahold of some of these steroids like aldosterone and deoxycorticosterone so that I can experiment with them and find out what their effects are. This will give me a better idea of what may be happening behind the curtain during finasteride use. Progesterone I've already tried and never experienced anything more than kind of a relaxing, almost numbing effect. No thickening of hair or water retention. What I might discover is that with aldosterone or deoxycorticosterone or some other steroid, maybe I'll experience water retention, but no hair thickening. However, I'll be closer to understanding the pathology of finasteride use and that will bring me much closer to understanding the pathology and, perhaps, etiology of hair loss.

 

[johnwester130]

This is a very old study i am posting here but i find it very interesting. PDF Attached below.

The study claims that high salt intake is associated with AGA and they might be on to something.

A year ago i was searching the forums and I stumbled upon the late Travis post about aldosterone and the mineralcorticoid. He theorized that mpb could be solved by blocking the mineralcorticoid.
He presented some solid information, whether i agree 100% is still up in the air.

What grabbed my attention was the fact he talked about marine animals having high mineralocorticoid activity.

I looked at data showing that animals with high aldosterone levels were often sea mammals. The animal with the highest aldosterone was the manatee and the dolphin has some of the lowest.

interestingly enough they found high levels of elastin bundles in mpb scalp tissue.
And in this study aldosterone shows just that Aldosterone and Mineralocorticoid Receptor Antagonists Modulate Elastin and Collagen Deposition in Human Skin

So I did more research and it seems that the manatee has some of the thickest skin ever at 3 inches more than a dolphins. High collagen fibers.

mpb eventually becomes perifollicular fibrosis. High dense levels of collagen deposition.

Now aldosterone is directly related to sodium and minoxidil is a potassium channel opener.

So this got me wondering about salt content in skin.

Research shows skin has an influence over blood pressure and this was dependent on the salt tissue levels of the skin.

So apparently the body increases salt skin tissue levels when it wants to store salt.

I found out in dermatitis which is often associated with AGA that the scalp tissue has very high levels of salt.

Salt could be a key factor in allergic immune reactions

Researchers have demonstrated in cell cultures that salt leads to the formation of Th2 cells. These immune cells are active in allergic conditions such as atopic dermatitis. The team also detected elevated salt concentrations in the skin of patients.

www.sciencedaily.com

this is specifically atopic dermatitis but when this condition occurs on the scalp it becomes sebborrheic dermatitis. I read that sodium is increased in skin tissues infection Study reveals salt’s role in infection control

So it looks like salt is placed in the skin during infection and for storage.

In Chinese medicine they correlate kidneys and hairloss and some on this very forum theorized edema and Hairloss. Also high intercellular sodium is thought to perhaps cause hyper calcium influx. Tying this in with the calcification theory of the ivory dome

THE ROLE OF INTRACELLULAR SODIUM (Na+) IN THE REGULATION OF CALCIUM (Ca2+)-MEDIATED SIGNALING AND TOXICITY

It is known that activated N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors (NMDARs) are a major route of excessive calcium ion (Ca[2+] ) entry in central neurons, which may activate degradative processes and thereby cause cell death. Therefore, NMDARs are now recognized ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Clinical studies have shown an age-dependent increase in skin tissue Na+content”

New Insights on the Role of Sodium in the Physiological Regulation of Blood Pressure and Development of Hypertension

A precise maintenance of sodium and fluid balance is an essential step in the regulation of blood pressure and alterations of this balance may lead to the development of hypertension. In recent years, several new advances were made in our understanding of the interaction between sodium and blood...

www.frontiersin.org

So I beleive Travis didnt have the cure as he wasnt addressing root cause but he was most definitely onto something. Because it seems to me that sodium. Potassium. Magnesium and calcium are some of the the biggest players in AgA.

Especially sodium

I am going to start experimenting with Eplerenone

 

[GorillaHead]

Any of y’all know why potassium lowers blood pressure yet apparently aldosterone increases blood pressure. Does it depend on how much potassium one gets. So if potassium is too high then aldosterone increases.

 

[Apple]

@GorillaHead , looks like both sodium and potasium are bad for hair. Potasium increases aldosterone and sodium accumulates in skin and bloodvessels casing stiffening... That sucks.
This guy's hair is a good example of high sodium : Stan Efferding

 

[Ras]

You can't find an old picture of a Yanomami man with alopecia. On their traditional diet, they eat almost zero sodium, but tens of a grams of potassium daily.