The delusion of "good bacteria"

T

TheBeard

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This lady thinks cultured foods' bacteria are the best remedy to reestablish an immune promoting microbiota.

She claims she cured her child from a gut bug by having her sip Kraut juice, and that she reverted to her jolly state withing 3 hours after that.

I'm amazed at how gullible is the general public towards this good bacteria narative.

Months and months of raw Kefir and Raw Sauerkraut only made my brain fog worse, my muscles achy, and my face look like a living dead.

If those bacteria were so good at killing the bad ones, or even good in and of themselves, surely I would have felt like a million bucks withing less than 2 months!

 

Perry Staltic

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You might be an outlier, or didn't use the right probiotic for your condition. Just because what you tried didn't work for you doesn't necessarily mean people who think otherwise are gullible. I've had and am having great success with them, particulary bacillus coagulens.
 

Nomane Euger

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Quelsatron

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You sound very dogmatic. My colleagues friend cured her chrons, aside from the lingering scars, with a fecal transplant. Nobody has a full understanding of the microbiome, writing it all off is a huge mistake. If all you had to do was chug antibiotics all day to cure any condition caused by gut bacteria it would already be common practice.
 
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T

TheBeard

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You sound very dogmatic. My colleagues friend cured her chrons, aside from the lingering scars, with a fecal transplant. Nobody has a full understanding of the microbiome, writing it all off is a huge mistake. If all you had to do was chug antibiotics all day to cure any condition caused by gut bacteria it would already be common practice.

It IS common practice in circles of people who are in the know, like a few of us on Ray Peat Forum.

Are you truly surprised that something that actually improves your health isn't common practice? Welcome on planet Earth
 
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Are you truly surprised that something that actually improves your health isn't common practice?
Yeah, if improving health was the parameter used to choose which therapies should be used by the system, then the medical establishment would be great. They would be advocating for low PUFA diets, telling people to trash their soybean oil and eat butter instead, or giving people thyroid hormone, etc. But we know that's not how things work.
 

Nomane Euger

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Well now I have yet another reason to laugh: you not understanding why the study I posted is stupid.
are you a frustrated kid that suffered from ED so you take it personal or what?i literally demand you with 0 sarcasm why you cant stop laughting?if i ask after i read the study it imply that i do not have any knowledge on the relation between antibiotic usage and erectil fonction
 

Quelsatron

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It IS common practice in circles of people who are in the know, like a few of us on Ray Peat Forum.

Are you truly surprised that something that actually improves your health isn't common practice? Welcome on planet Earth
If gut bacteria were so universally bad, and their effects so systematic, just blasting antibiotics should improve the overall health and performance of anyone, and the results should be so evident it should be impossible to miss and to keep obscure. Unlike PUFA depletion, antibiotic nuking shouldn't take years or even weeks. I just don't buy this sterile gut stuff just because some people had positive effects of supposedly antibacterial treatments. Even peat has talked about vitamin k producing bacteria or benefits of lactobacilli.
 

Nicole W.

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Nov 28, 2016
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This lady thinks cultured foods' bacteria are the best remedy to reestablish an immune promoting microbiota.

She claims she cured her child from a gut bug by having her sip Kraut juice, and that she reverted to her jolly state withing 3 hours after that.

I'm amazed at how gullible is the general public towards this good bacteria narative.

Months and months of raw Kefir and Raw Sauerkraut only made my brain fog worse, my muscles achy, and my face look like a living dead.

If those bacteria were so good at killing the bad ones, or even good in and of themselves, surely I would have felt like a million bucks withing less than 2 months!

Naturopathic medicine is heavily invested in the “good” vs “bad” gut bacteria narrative. They push fermented foods hard. I don’t think they could reverse this philosophy without taking a major hit to their credibility. So instead, they just perpetuate it.
 
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jb116

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are you a frustrated kid that suffered from ED so you take it personal or what?i literally demand you with 0 sarcasm why you cant stop laughting?if i ask after i read the study it imply that i do not have any knowledge on the relation between antibiotic usage and erectil fonction
What is it with you "new" people that come out of the woodwork and are either intentionally obtuse or just have serious comprehension issues on this forum?? Especially in 2020, which makes it highly suspicious.
He's laughing because the study is moronic to equate sexual function and erections with "adverse event." What is it that you aren't getting here?
 
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Especially in 2020, which makes it highly suspicious.
I noticed that too. Makes me think at least a fraction of them are paid shills, but who knows, I may be wrong.
 

dukesbobby777

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If gut bacteria were so universally bad, and their effects so systematic, just blasting antibiotics should improve the overall health and performance of anyone, and the results should be so evident it should be impossible to miss and to keep obscure. Unlike PUFA depletion, antibiotic nuking shouldn't take years or even weeks. I just don't buy this sterile gut stuff just because some people had positive effects of supposedly antibacterial treatments. Even peat has talked about vitamin k producing bacteria or benefits of lactobacilli.

I don’t think anyone has ever said that having a sterile gut is possible. Peat has never said that. It’s an idealistic concept. In a perfect world, yes, get rid of the bactéria and goodbye to endotoxin. Your food would still digest and go where it needs to go without bacteria. Peat takes occasional very low dose antibiotics, and aims for daily carrot salads/mushrooms and/or bamboo shoots. He will be the first to tell you that it’s damage limitation (or a ‘managing’), not ‘elimination’ of this issue. He’s already talked about how it’s inevitable that we live with such things. Nobody here is silly enough to think that they can aim for a sterile gut. It’s about keeping the terrain in good state. Accepting that the bacteria are there (and always will be), but ensuring that they don’t get out of control.

A simple carrot salad is one method that Dr Peat recommends because, if prepared in the correct way, and taken everyday, it can sweep through and bring about mild daily changes that, eventually, lead to longer term results. Does it eliminate bacteria down there? No. But nothing will. Every time you eat, you will re-introduce bacteria regardless (no matter what approach you try to take). So it’s about managing your defense to these insults.

Continuous use of anti-biotics is (IMO) pointless, unless you want to grow tolerant to them. Just like other drugs, your body will soon adapt to them. So even if you wanted to take them long term, your body would eventually learn how to adapt and excrete it (rendering the anti-biotic useless).
 

DANIEL

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I wouldn't say that. Ray has mentioned the importance of being exposed to bacteria for the immune system. He even has stated that endotoxin is important - albeit in small amounts - and talked favorably about it,

[Andrew is talking about endotoxin]
Andrew: As an aside, do you know if there is a value, picogram or whatever value, associated to "acceptable level"?

Ray: Yeah, it stimulates defense reactions and so it's kind of like a toughening up reaction to have a small amount of it. If you're born in a germ-free environment, your first exposure to bacteria is likely to be lethal, but absorbing a little bit of the endotoxin toughens up the system.


He has talked about germ-free animals living longer, but this was to make a point. He never said we should try and be germ-free.
 

rebuke

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I haven't read anything in Ray's wok to suggest he thinks that manipulating gut bacteria. as opposed to sterilization, is unfounded. I assume he is more concerned about the safety of attempting to do so. Modern day bodybuilders are fixing. to varying degrees of success, their infamous "bubble guts" by taking specific probiotics and cutting out artificial sweeteners (which cause dysbiosis). There are real world examples of these therapies working. A therapy that falls under taking part in a mass experiment, and thus Ray's reluctance to endorse it, and his preference for safe antibiotics.
 

jzone56

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I haven't read anything in Ray's wok to suggest he thinks that manipulating gut bacteria. as opposed to sterilization, is unfounded. I assume he is more concerned about the safety of attempting to do so. Modern day bodybuilders are fixing. to varying degrees of success, their infamous "bubble guts" by taking specific probiotics and cutting out artificial sweeteners (which cause dysbiosis). There are real world examples of these therapies working. A therapy that falls under taking part in a mass experiment, and thus Ray's reluctance to endorse it, and his preference for safe antibiotics.
Who has had success with this? Would love to look up their stories bc the only bodybuilders i know who’ve got rid of their gut distention stopped doing GH.
 

jzone56

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Obviously the gut is not this simple, but I’ve considered the following: if your bacteria are able to metabolize food and release the vitamins/minerals so they can be absorbed by the body, what advantage do you gain by having marginally more bacteria? Wouldn’t there be diminishing returns past a certain point, if there are returns at all?
 

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