The Daily Raw Carrot Is Not Antiseptic, It Increases Bacterial Growth In The Gut

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I think it's because for constipated people, eating more fiber doesn't always work and it will only contribute to more constipation. That's my case. When I was younger I used to have these huge salads, which looking back actually tasted really good, but I would get bloated, hungry and completely constipated for days. The raw carrot, in small amounts, tends to help me have a bowel movement, but eating an entire big carrot almost always ended up causing an incomplete bowel movement.
 

Amazoniac

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Why is that?
Roughage will minimize exposure to toxins, but it can inter and cept the sweeping action in someone that's already struggling in this department; it's easier to move around soft matter. Tough fibers tend to reduce the effect of laxatives for example, and so they can reinforce the stagnation. Microbes that thrive on constipation are adapted to a stabler environment and might benefit from having the chance to metabolize other fuels more slowly with less competition.

I find the biofilm in the intestine idea confusing because if it's adhering to mucus (contrary to a hard surface such as teeth), it would be as simple as shedding the outer layer or having some fiber to scrape it off, and detaching in blocks should release an entire colony at once. So while it's easier to move around soft matter, it's also more challenging to avoid its spread, and having tougher parts together will prevent this from happening on their way out. Just like Wai and no one else (2019) mention'd, the amount consumed in a meal should make a difference here. If I'm not wrong, in the experiment it was 200 g of carrots, which isn't a modest serving.
 
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TheBeard

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The idea that a person with dysbiosis will somehow achieve eubiosis by just eating a variety of different foods is naive, in my opinion. People with SIBO can almost never tolerate anything that feeds bacteria, and which would normally feed "good" bacteria in a a healthy person. If you happen to have too much, or the wrong mix of bacteria, this approach just doesn't seem to be helpful, at all. If your gut is already damaged by constant exposure to an overdose of bacterial products such as methane, H2S, or an excess of SFA, simply throwing a variety of food at the bacteria in your gut and hoping for the best seems like a bad idea.
There is no evidence I know of showing that eating fermentable stuff has any significant long-term benefits. On the other hand, completely avoiding fiber brings incredible results in some studies, and the low-Fodmap approach, while not perfect, seems much more rational than the "eat healthy fibers" approach. There are dozens of studies showing that restricting foods to those that have a low fermentation potential is very helpful for people with SIBO, and reasonable antibiotics use is also very effective in SIBO eradication. Even the mainstream literature is catching up on that, more and more. It also just so happens that some of the most beneficial bacteria are beneficial just because they work like antibiotics. L. Reuteri or B. Subtilis produce powerful antibiotics that kill competitors.

Perfect post, couldn’t agree more
 

Kartoffel

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Roughage will minimize exposure to toxins, but it can inter and cept the sweeping action in someone that's already struggling in this department; it's easier to move around soft matter. Tough fibers tend to reduce the effect of laxatives for example, and so they can reinforce the stagnation. Microbes that thrive on constipation are adapted to a stabler environment and might benefit from having the chance to metabolize other fuels more slowly with less competition.

That's true but the problems you mention seem to be caused only by soluble fiber. In basically every study, insoluble fiber reduces transit time and increases stool volume. The only carrot study that looked at that showed a small decrease of transit time, plus I don't think that carrots contain enough soluble fiber to make a difference in that regard. A normal sized carrot (around 100g) contains about 3g. That's much less than in a normal serving of Kartoffeln.
 

Amazoniac

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That's true but the problems you mention seem to be caused only by soluble fiber. In basically every study, insoluble fiber reduces transit time and increases stool volume. The only carrot study that looked at that showed a small decrease of transit time, plus I don't think that carrots contain enough soluble fiber to make a difference in that regard. A normal sized carrot (around 100g) contains about 3g. That's much less than in a normal serving of Kartoffeln.
This is beyond fiber content because anything that's not accessible in foods will be bulking and can interfere with sweeping. It will depend not only on fiber composition but also on distribution, it could be for example a thin bulletproof crust making it look like a fermentable food, but the content is not available.

The entire plant might be protected by strong antimicrobials, so microbes can't get to it but it will be collecting whatever is not absorbed from the same or following meals and feeding them. Raw carrots and spinach have a similar fiber content, yet people report pieces of carrots being excreted intact (and constipation from them isn't uncommon) while I imagine the spinach exiting mushy and never obstructing the way. Even though less than 3% of the weight of carrots is fiber, the entire food is working as roughage.
 
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Kartoffel

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This is beyond fiber content because anything that's not accessible in foods will be bulking and can interfere with sweeping. It will depend not only on fiber composition but also on distribution, it could be for example a thin bulletproof crust making it look like a fermentable food, but the content is not available.

What kind of material do you have in mind? Anything that can't be broken down by enzymes or even bacteria is by definition a fiber.

The entire plant might be protected by strong antimicrobials, so microbes can't get to it but it will be collecting whatever is not absorbed from the same or following meals and feeding them.

Sounds interesting but do you have any evidence that something like that happens? - that the fibers take up digestible things that feed bacteria

(and constipation from them isn't uncommon)

What is that based on? Reports from the forum?

I find the biofilm in the intestine idea confusing because if it's adhering to mucus (contrary to a hard surface such as teeth), it would be as simple as shedding the outer layer or having some fiber to scrape it off, and detaching in blocks should release an entire colony at once.

This paper has some neat photos showing why "scraping off" a biofilm in a dysbiotic gut might not be that easy. Normally the biofilm adheres to a mucus layer, and doesn't connect to the intestinal wall directly, but in a dysbiotic gut the biofilm starts adhering to the epithelial surface directly, and the pathobionts literally start digging into your intestine.

Pathobiont release from dysbiotic gut microbiota biofilms in intestinal inflammatory diseases: a role for iron? | Journal of Biomedical Science | Full Text
 

Amazoniac

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What kind of material do you have in mind? Anything that can't be broken down by enzymes or even bacteria is by definition a fiber.
Less than 3% of the weight of a carrot is fiber, if it comes out apparently intact, the fiber content increases?
Sounds interesting but do you have any evidence that something like that happens? - that the fibers take up digestible things that feed bacteria
This could be an explanation for the increase in hydrogen sulfide in the experiment. Even Raj has acknowledged somewhere that including indigestible foods in meals can impair nutrient extraction from it, therefore more stuff will be escaping absorption and as a consequence microbes might benefit from it. A tough food with potent antimicrobials is protected by its own compounds, but whatever it carries along won't be as much.
What is that based on? Reports from the forum?
Ja, und bereits auf dieser Seite haben wir ein Beispiel.
This paper has some neat photos showing why "scraping off" a biofilm in a dysbiotic gut might not be that easy. Normally the biofilm adheres to a mucus layer, and doesn't connect to the intestinal wall directly, but in a dysbiotic gut the biofilm starts adhering to the epithelial surface directly, and the pathobionts literally start digging into your intestine.

Pathobiont release from dysbiotic gut microbiota biofilms in intestinal inflammatory diseases: a role for iron? | Journal of Biomedical Science | Full Text
Makes sense. It's probable that there's diarrhea before they establish.
I've read some cases of faecal transplant that were considered a success but the problems return'd after a while. You can interpret that the guru's state is creating the unfavorable condition, that the infection wasn't cleared, or both (schultz 2014-19).
 
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oburns

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Found this, looked interesting. Anti-Peat?

Background
Ray Peat's daily raw carrot is one of the most popular peatarian recommendations. Yet, it is among the recommendations that are the least questioned.
A daily raw carrot, shredded with a little vinegar and olive oil, can suppress bacteria. - Ray Peat Sometimes having a daily carrot salad (grated, with salt, olive oil, and a few drops of vinegar) will stimulate (and disinfect) the small intestine enough to prevent fermentation. - Ray Peat
Where is the evidence for such claims?
When Peatarians are asked, they usually just quote 1-2 in vitro studies on the antimicrobial effect of carrots, such as this one. Although they sound convincing, caution should be applied when generalizing the evidence on much more complex systems such as the human gut with its microbiome and different compartments (i.e. stomach, small intestine, colon).

Interestingly, there is one older publication out there that tested the effects of raw carrots in humans. This one is also often quoted by Peatarians because it shows a cholesterol reducing effect of carrots, which is somewhat in line with Peat's observation of changes in estrogen/progesterone ratio (clear study data on that are lacking unfortunately).

Unfortunately, the second result of the study is only rarely discussed. The authors measured stool mass/fats and breath hydrogen, the latter being a marker for bacterial fermentation. This is what they found:

  1. The raw carrot more than doubled breath hydrogen, which is a marker for bacterial fermentation. This effect started to occur after around 10 days of starting the raw carrot.
  2. The excretion of fecal bile acids and fats was still increased 3 weeks after ending the carrot phase.
Similar results have been obtained in another study. It compared the fermentation of different types of fibers in rats and man. Just like above, carrots seem to be fermented quite efficiently, similar to apples. Wheat bran in contrasts is one of the fibers that appears to be largely undigested.

Conclusions
These studies show that the raw carrot is not "antiseptic" in the gut, but the opposite, that it increases overall bacterial mass when consumed regularly. The change takes several days to take place sugesting a slow adaption of the microbiome with a proliferation of bacteria that thrive on carrot-fiber. The change in microbiome may also explain the long lasting effect on fecal bile excretion.

By no means I am suggesting that eating the carrot is bad for you just because it favors microbial growth. The effect probably depends on how your microbiome reacts. I've heard from some people (2 of them with inflammatory bowel disease) that they got terrible stomach upset from eating the carrot. Here, the carrot seems to bring the microbial balance out of whack. In others, it might regulate things and lead to growth of beneficial bacteria while suppressing the "bad" ones.

In the light of these results, eating carrot fiber each day, but careful avoiding all other fibers doesn't make that much sense. Similar fibers such as from fruits or other vegetables could be equally beneficial (or deleterious, depending on the person). By the way, other fiber sources have also been shown to lower estrogens suggesting that the hormone regulating effects are not limited to the carrot but may apply to fiber in general.

Peatarian Reviews: The daily raw carrot is not antiseptic, it increases bacterial growth in the gut
My question is: are you eating the raw carrot on a full stomach? If you are that is a problem. It can inhibit the absorption of other minerals.
You should be consuming on an empty stomach.
The reason you are doing the raw carrot is to eliminate endotoxin (bad bacteria that has formed) and much safer option than antibiotics. The vinegar will be germicidal.
http://www.thenutritioncoach.com.au/anti-ageing/a-carrot-a-day/

EASY RECIPE
1 medium carrot
(or equivalent), washed and unpeeled, grated or shredded length-ways with a peeler**
a dash of vinegar; simple rice vinegar or wine vinegar (no 220) – stimulates HCl and digestion and is also antimicrobial
  • 1-2 tsp coconut oil (melted) and some olive oil, – lowers the requirement for vitamin E, and reduces the toxicity of the unsaturated fats (Cleland, et al.), favoring effective respiration and improving thyroid and progesterone production, and carried into the intestine by the carrot fiber, suppresses bacterial growth while stimulating healing of the wall of the intestine.
  • Sea saltimportant for lowering adrenalin, aldosterone and serotonin, steadies blood-sugar, hydrates, increases metabolic rate, important source of minerals … and makes everything taste better!
 
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Regardless of if the higher hydrogen is explainable by a shift in bacteria, the fact remains that a significant portion of the carrots fiber seemingly vanished (aka was metabolized by bacteria).

I've looked at a few studies and it appears carrots are high in pectin, perhaps even higher in pectin than cellulose. Pectin is readily fermentable in the gut.

But the thing is, even if it was pure cellulose, cellulose still isn't safe from fermentation either. Something like 50% of it is fermented in the gut. In a way, cellulose is better for your gut bacteria than starch, because with starch you will digest and absorb 99% of it in the stomach while cellulose will continue to be fermented for hours and hours down your intestines.

Almost every plant fiber is fermentable guys. Remember, ruminants eat grass or can straight up eat cotton and digest it into short chain fatty acids just like us. They should serve as a warning to us as fellow mammals with long intestines.

For a fiber that has some potential, I think agar would be worth a try, as it's said to be inert to stomach bacteria. However I haven't found an actual study proving this. If it was true though, that'd be useful as it's a gelling fiber and has a lot of bulk but isn't hard or irritating. As well it can be taken as a powder or jello like snack.

However I'm not going to risk it as I don't know if it's truly inert, and even if it was I don't see the point in eating any fiber if I can avoid it. Why would I purposely add fermentable bulking to my intestines? One of the benefits of the Peat diet is the constipated.

And by constipation I mean not sh***ing. And there's a difference between being constipated because there's nothing in intestines (no waste) vs constipation where you actually do need to but can't.

The former is what a fiberless diet should do and I believe it to be optimal. What's the point of cutting out fiber just to supplement with more?
 

SOMO

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because with starch you will digest and absorb 99% of it in the stomach while cellulose will continue to be fermented for hours and hours down your intestines.

Starch isn't digested in the stomach, it's digested in the small intestine (hopefully) and whatever remains after, gets digested by bacteria in the large intestine.
 

Vins7

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Any vegetable or carbohydrate containing soluble fiber will increase fermentation, including mushrooms.

Insoluble fiber, almost universally, has a physical scrubbing action and is not digested.

This is the issue many Paleo/GAPS/SCD/IBS-diet people have with wheat and grains - they contain mostly insoluble fiber which is supposed to be "scratchy" or irritating to the intestine.

But even wheat is not entirely 100% insoluble, but there are many who undeniably get digestive benefit from eating more grains, one of which is less bloating.
Digestive benefits eating more grains? I always thought that grains could cause digestive issues but not the opposite.
 

SOMO

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Digestive benefits eating more grains? I always thought that grains could cause digestive issues but not the opposite.

Gluten can cause digestive distress in those with very poor digestion, but the insoluble fiber is still a net positive in my opinion.
 

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