The Daily Raw Carrot Is Not Antiseptic, It Increases Bacterial Growth In The Gut

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Found this, looked interesting. Anti-Peat?

Background
Ray Peat's daily raw carrot is one of the most popular peatarian recommendations. Yet, it is among the recommendations that are the least questioned.
A daily raw carrot, shredded with a little vinegar and olive oil, can suppress bacteria. - Ray Peat Sometimes having a daily carrot salad (grated, with salt, olive oil, and a few drops of vinegar) will stimulate (and disinfect) the small intestine enough to prevent fermentation. - Ray Peat
Where is the evidence for such claims?
When Peatarians are asked, they usually just quote 1-2 in vitro studies on the antimicrobial effect of carrots, such as this one. Although they sound convincing, caution should be applied when generalizing the evidence on much more complex systems such as the human gut with its microbiome and different compartments (i.e. stomach, small intestine, colon).

Interestingly, there is one older publication out there that tested the effects of raw carrots in humans. This one is also often quoted by Peatarians because it shows a cholesterol reducing effect of carrots, which is somewhat in line with Peat's observation of changes in estrogen/progesterone ratio (clear study data on that are lacking unfortunately).

Unfortunately, the second result of the study is only rarely discussed. The authors measured stool mass/fats and breath hydrogen, the latter being a marker for bacterial fermentation. This is what they found:

1. The raw carrot more than doubled breath hydrogen, which is a marker for bacterial fermentation. This effect started to occur after around 10 days of starting the raw carrot.
2. The excretion of fecal bile acids and fats was still increased 3 weeks after ending the carrot phase.

Similar results have been obtained in another study. It compared the fermentation of different types of fibers in rats and man. Just like above, carrots seem to be fermented quite efficiently, similar to apples. Wheat bran in contrasts is one of the fibers that appears to be largely undigested.

Conclusions
These studies show that the raw carrot is not "antiseptic" in the gut, but the opposite, that it increases overall bacterial mass when consumed regularly. The change takes several days to take place sugesting a slow adaption of the microbiome with a proliferation of bacteria that thrive on carrot-fiber. The change in microbiome may also explain the long lasting effect on fecal bile excretion.

By no means I am suggesting that eating the carrot is bad for you just because it favors microbial growth. The effect probably depends on how your microbiome reacts. I've heard from some people (2 of them with inflammatory bowel disease) that they got terrible stomach upset from eating the carrot. Here, the carrot seems to bring the microbial balance out of whack. In others, it might regulate things and lead to growth of beneficial bacteria while suppressing the "bad" ones.

In the light of these results, eating carrot fiber each day, but careful avoiding all other fibers doesn't make that much sense. Similar fibers such as from fruits or other vegetables could be equally beneficial (or deleterious, depending on the person). By the way, other fiber sources have also been shown to lower estrogens suggesting that the hormone regulating effects are not limited to the carrot but may apply to fiber in general.

Peatarian Reviews: The daily raw carrot is not antiseptic, it increases bacterial growth in the gut

 

[Deadpool]

This has been my experience. I have been off of the carrot for several weeks only really eating what I find tasty and not bothering to eat the carrot. My gut interestingly seemed kinda fine just from leaving out dairy. Then I decided to try the carrot again a week ago and immediately noticed that it doesn't sit well with my stomach. Same goes for a lot of other fruits and veges.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Its the only part of the "peat diet" I really dread. I hate eating the daily carrot. Takes forever and by the time I can stomach it, Im usually already hungry for something else.

 

[Deadpool]

Its the only part of the "peat diet" I really dread. I hate eating the daily carrot. Takes forever and by the time I can stomach it, Im usually already hungry for something else.

Same here.

 

[kyle]

How did they obtain baseline h2? They could have fasted a couple days from starch for all we know.

 

[kyle]

"Inceases bacterial growth in intestines" is just an ignorant claim. Such a study doesnt have the experimental parameters for that.

E.g. some kind of control group.

 

[milkboi]

I think the article was already posted here. For me, the carrot salad seems to work how it’s supposed to when taken on semi-empty stomach. I actually enjoy the taste. But even RP said that he feels like the carrot is now fermenting in his gut I think.

 

[kyle]

Some level of fermentation is unavoidable.

If carrots arent good then what is? Wheat bran has phytic acids.

The important thing is bile and thus better elimination and liver function.

Mushrooms are good too. I think if youre healthy, you can tolerate the less harmless fibers like wheat.

Its sad but store bought carrots are not great, even organic labeled.

If you can, the carrots with the stalk and dirt on them still are best flavor wise.

Ever try those?

 

[Kartoffel]

Some level of fermentation is unavoidable.

If carrots arent good then what is? Wheat bran has phytic acids.

The important thing is bile and thus better elimination and liver function.

Mushrooms are good too. I think if youre healthy, you can tolerate the less harmless fibers like wheat.

Its sad but store bought carrots are not great, even organic labeled.

If you can, the carrots with the stalk and dirt on them still are best flavor wise.

Ever try those?

Plus you might get some beneficial bacteria from the soil such as B. subtilis.

 

[Kartoffel]

This is Ray's response to the study.

They didn’t measure hydrogen in the last part of the study. The antiseptic effect of carrot might have decreased methane forming bacteria, leaving more food for hydrogen formation. Most people say that they can see undigested carrot in their stool; I doubt that the fiber supports fermentation to hydrogen.

Gastroenterology. 1984 Sep;87(3):601-5.
Methane production and colon cancer.
Piqué JM, Pallarés M, Cusó E, Vilar-Bonet J, Gassull MA.
The cause of the high incidence of methane producers in patients with colorectal
cancer is not clear. A total of 270 individuals were studied for methane
production, using an end-expiratory breath sampling technique. They were divided
into eight groups: 156 healthy controls (group 1); 47 patients with colorectal
cancer (group 2); 36 patients (34 of them included in the previous group) after
resection of the tumor (group 3); 7 (also included in group 2) with nonresectable
tumor (group 4); 29 with nonmalignant diseases of the colon (group 5); 12 with
extensive ulcerative colitis (group 6); 12 with ulcerative proctosigmoiditis
(group 7); and 12 with colonic polyposis (group 8). Significantly more patients
(91.4%) with colorectal cancer in group 2 produced methane than either healthy
controls (42.9%) (p less than 0.001) or patients with benign diseases of the
colon (41.3%) (p less than 0.001). In 36 patients (group 3) in whom the cancer
was resected, the incidence of methane producers fell to 47.2%, similar to the
control group, but significantly different from group 2 (p less than 0.001). The
percentage of methane producers in patients operated on, but with unresectable
cancer, remained very high (87.7%). A significantly higher proportion of patients
with extensive ulcerative colitis (group 6) and colonic polyposis (group 7)
produced methane than patients with ulcerative proctosigmoiditis (group 7),
benign diseases of the colon (group 5), and healthy controls (p less than 0.05).
The results suggest that the presence of cancer in the large bowel directly
influences methane production. In addition, in the group of diseases with a high
risk of malignancy, the prevalence of methane-producing individuals was
significantly higher than in the healthy population and in patients with benign
diseases of the colon.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

o that's cool that ray saw this and responded

 

[haidut]

These studies show that the raw carrot is not "antiseptic" in the gut, but the opposite, that it increases overall bacterial mass when consumed regularly. The change takes several days to take place sugesting a slow adaption of the microbiome with a proliferation of bacteria that thrive on carrot-fiber. The change in microbiome may also explain the long lasting effect on fecal bile excretion.

Can you please point to any portion of either one of the studies that this blog post discussed that show that "raw carrot is not "antiseptic" in the gut, but the opposite, that it increases overall bacterial mass when consumed regularly". There is no such conclusion in either studies. What both studies show is that carrot is partially digestible, which is not news to anybody since 40% of the fiber in carrot is soluble while the other 60% insoluble.
Soluble Fiber Amounts in Fruits & Vegetables
"...Carrots are also about 40 percent soluble fiber. A 3.5-ounce side of cooked carrots has 1.5 grams of soluble fiber and 3.8 grams of total fiber."

So, aside from the obvious findings that some of the carrot will be digested and as such increase exhaled hydrogen, where is the evidence/findings/conclusion that it does NOT have antiseptic effects in the gut or even more so that it increases overall bacterial mass?? Btw, even the increase in hydrogen does not necessarily mean increased total bacterial fermentation. It could simply mean a shift of the microbiome from one type of bacteria (methane producing) to another (hydrogen producing).

 

[Kartoffel]

Did you yourself read the actual studies or did you just find a contrarian post and dumped it here with the intent to troll?? What is the value of your post if it is simply an inflammatory repost without you doing any work/effort to validate or (God forbid) expand on it?
Anyways, can you please point to any portion of either one of the studies that this blog post discussed that show that "raw carrot is not "antiseptic" in the gut, but the opposite, that it increases overall bacterial mass when consumed regularly". There is no such conclusion in either studies. What both studies show is that carrot is partially digestible, which is not news to anybody since 40% of the fiber in carrot is soluble while the other 60% insoluble.
Soluble Fiber Amounts in Fruits & Vegetables
"...Carrots are also about 40 percent soluble fiber. A 3.5-ounce side of cooked carrots has 1.5 grams of soluble fiber and 3.8 grams of total fiber."

So, aside from the obvious findings that some of the carrot will be digested and as such increase exhaled hydrogen, where is the evidence/findings/conclusion that it does NOT have antiseptic effects in the gut or even more so that it increases overall bacterial mass?? Btw, even the increase in hydrogen does not necessarily mean increased total bacterial fermentation. It could simply mean a shift of the microbiome from one type of bacteria (methane producing) to another (hydrogen producing).

To be fair, Ray has said repeatedly that carrot fiber is indigestible, suggesting that it is mainly non-fermentable like wheat bran. I understand why people seem confused when they see a study like this.

 

[Peater Griffin]

Ok, this may be kinda offtopic. But I just had some strange stoner thoughts about a possible alternative to the carrot (though I don't really think carrots are bad).

First of all, Dr. Peat talks a lot about the carrot itself having antibiotic effects. Nevertheless, he also talks about the shredded carrot additionally being a carrier for other antibacterial stuff (e.g. vinegar, coconut oil, olive oil). The carrot fiber carries the vinegar and oils into the intestine where they inhibit bacterial growth. I assume that has to be indigestible fiber, as otherwise it probably couldn't carry anything deep down into the intestines. So, what would be another good carrier? Probably should be something indigestible...

Interestingly, in this thread here, Dr. Peat was quoted as follows: "Most people say that they can see undigested carrot in their stool". I don't eat the carrot every day, just on few occasions. But yeah, when I eat it, often I can see undigested carrot in my stool afterwards! Now THAT got me thinking really hard! What other foods are famous for coming out the other end undigested? Corn!

What if you took some corn kernels, put tiny holes in it with a needle and then bath it in your antibacterial mix of whatever until it's fully soaked? Then swallow unchewed. Would the antibacterial stuff be slowly released on the corn kernel's way through the intestine? Has anyone here experience in this technique?

 

[haidut]

To be fair, Ray has said repeatedly that carrot fiber is indigestible, suggesting that it is mainly non-fermentable like wheat bran. I understand why people seem confused when they see a study like this.

Agreed. My gripe is simply with the 2 conclusions in that blog post and the title of this thread, since none of the studies stated or hinted to either one of the conclusions.

 

[Fractality]

In my experience, I do not see undigested carrot in my stools. Maybe it's in the inside of the stool so I can't see it unless I do some digging?

 

[milkboi]

In my experience, I do not see undigested carrot in my stools. Maybe it's in the inside of the stool so I can't see it unless I do some digging?

Then you know what you gotta do...

 

[Kartoffel]

Agreed. My gripe is simply with the 2 conclusions in that blog post and the title of this thread, since none of the studies stated or hinted to either one of the conclusions.

Well, the conclusions are based on the fact that carrot consumption increased H2. It's not that far fetched, since an increase in breath H2 is usually treated as a clear increase in bacterial density, in the literature. In the study the authors themselves write:

"A possible explanation of the effects is given by the breath hydrogen. The expired breath hydrogen in normals is derived from bacterial activity in the colon, therefore, the increase in breath hydrogen is probably due to fiber fermentation in the colon. This implies that the pH, redox potential, and bacterial activity,e.g.,on bile acids,alters as a result of fiber hydrolysis to short-chained fatty acids."
​

In my experience, I do not see undigested carrot in my stools. Maybe it's in the inside of the stool so I can't see it unless I do some digging?

Tell us how it went. It's easier with bamboo shoots. You can clearly see those.

 

[SOMO]

Any vegetable or carbohydrate containing soluble fiber will increase fermentation, including mushrooms.

Insoluble fiber, almost universally, has a physical scrubbing action and is not digested.

This is the issue many Paleo/GAPS/SCD/IBS-diet people have with wheat and grains - they contain mostly insoluble fiber which is supposed to be "scratchy" or irritating to the intestine.

But even wheat is not entirely 100% insoluble, but there are many who undeniably get digestive benefit from eating more grains, one of which is less bloating.

 

[Pufas Shmoofas]

Dumb question, but why exactly is fermentation bad?