The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein

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Amazoniac

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No formula is good for babies, but I guess any cow's or goat's milk formula will be better than soy-based garbage. I just wanted to point out that calling casein formula bad on the basis of its' methionine content is stupid because natural human milk will contain just as much methionine.
This was your interpretation, they didn't write that. They just pointed out that under the given conditions, the effects of soy are milder than casein. Since the acidosis was worsened by sulfur-containing amino acids and casein has less cysteine than soy, it can only be methionine to blame for that. I guess that reducing it would ease the stress and probably adding cysteine with everything else being fixed would worsen it.

The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein

Formula is an abomination. That is very correct! I still love cheese :p:
I just want to let you know that you're appreciated regardless of your choices.
 
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Kartoffel

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This was your interpretation, they didn't write that. They just pointed out that under the given conditions, the effects of soy are milder than casein. Since the acidosis was worsened by sulfur-containing amino acids and casein has less cysteine than soy, it can only be methionine to blame for that, because I guess that reducing it would ease the stress.

The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein


I just want to let you know that you're appreciated regardless of your choices.

Ok, then I was wrong to assume that you wanted to imply something like that because you posted this absurd study together with another one that supposdely shows that casein is bad for babies.
No, they didn't say that in the study, but why do you think they conduct ridiculous experiments like that, where they cut out 5/6 of your kidney ("under the given conditions"), and then frame it like casein is bad for your kidneys? This study is absurd garbage solely designed for the purpose to mislead people into thinking that plant proteins are better/safer than high-quality animal proteins.
 
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Ok, then I was wrong to assume that you wanted to imply something like that because you posted this absurd study together with another one that supposdely shows that casein is bad for babies.
No, they didn't say that in the study, but why do you think they condcut ridiculous studies like that, where they cut out 5/6 of your kidney ("under the given conditions"), and then frame it like casein is bad for your kidneys? This study is absurd garbage solely designed for the purpose to mislead people into thinking that plant proteins are better/safer than high-quality animal proteins.
It's remarkable that soy protein was less deteriorating than casein with 1/6 or whatever left of the kidneys. This thread is about the specificities of casein, and it's useful to know how it's distorted in relation to other proteins.
 

Kartoffel

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It's remarkable that soy protein was less deteriorating than casein with 1/6 or whatever left of the kidneys. This thread is about the specificities of casein, and it's useful to know how it's distorted in relation to other proteins.

Distorted? I know this kind of language from my angry vegan friends, but maybe a different choice of adjectives might be more appropriate in a scientific discussion. So how exactely is casein "distorted"?
 
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Distorted? I know this kind of language from my angry vegan friends, but maybe a different choice of adjectives might be more appropriate in a scientific discussion. So how exactely is casein "distorted"?
Numerous metabolic effects have been associated with casein-predominant diets. Babies fed a casein-predominant formula have higher levels of blood urea nitrogen, phenylalanine, methionine tyrosine, and ammonia (39-41). They also have a lower serum pH (late metabolic acidosis) and lower levels of taurine and cystine (39-41). The aminograms of preterm newborn babies fed a whey-predominant formula more closely resemble the aminograms of breast-fed infants (41)."
One measure of the protein quality of milk proteins involves determination of the protein efficiency ratio (PER) or the amount of weight gain divided by the amount of protein eaten. Although simple to perform, PER are not sensitive to small differences in protein quality and the number generated has no intrinsic meaning beyond its use for comparative purposes. In general, the whey fraction of cow’s milk generates higher PER than the casein fraction due to the higher percentages of essential amino acids and, in particular, cystine and threonine (6).
This can have unwanted consequences for adults consuming a lot of it. Ideally you'll have less methionine and more cysteine, otherwise this is an example of distortion that appeared from changing milk's original composition.

Quoting Raj on cysteine and thyroid inhibition in 3, 2, 1..

But now you have an odd balance of amino acids. You might start wondering why pyridoxine intake has remained the same but it's no longer satisfactory. Why taurine production was already impaired and now it's worse. What if you're already deficient in choline (which happens to be lost as well with processing) and the body can't afford not recovering homocysteine? And so on.

specificities
No idea how I got this word right on the first attempt.
 
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I would never model a diet from these rabbit studies.
"The effect of dietary glycine was not limited to rabbits: when we fed rats semi-purified diets containing cholesterol, and casein, casein plus glycine, or soy isolate, we obtained mean serum cholesterol levels of 10.4 mmol/l in the casein group, 4.9 in the casein-plus-glycine group and 3.5 in the soy group.

We conclude that casein-induced hypercholesterolaemia and its sequelae are partly relieved by addition of glycine to the diet, while supplementation of casein-based rations with arginine and/or alanine may be necessary for rabbits. However, the beneficial effects of these amino acids could just as well be explained by the presence of an excess of other amino acids in casein (amino acid imbalance) as by an absolute shortage of glycine, arginine or alanine."​

The casein imbalance clearly makes the situation worse; the effects with soy are milder. So even for them, adding glycine eases the issues.
 

Wagner83

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The hard (feta) cheese reliably slows down transit, I wonder if pure casein powder has the same effects.
 

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Purified casein will contain retinoic acid. This could be why they see artery damage. I will never supplement casein powders in my diet. Raw cheeses should not be that high in retinoic acid. I don't know.
 
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Purified casein will contain retinoic acid. This could be why they see artery damage. I will never supplement casein powders in my diet. Raw cheeses should not be that high in retinoic acid. I don't know.
Don't mind Janelle, she's actually receiving a grant to say that.

I guess the fat is removed before heat processing, so you're left with trace amounts of it. And of these, only a small fraction is retinol that can be damaged.
Can Exergy be a Useful Tool for the Dairy Industry?
"Milk powder manufacturing process schematic" representation:
upload_2018-11-6_10-3-39.png

--
Cheese has noordinary amount of tyrosine, it's extraordinary.
The role of ascorbic acid in tyrosine metabolism
 

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Binding of vitamin A with milk α- and β-caseins. - PubMed - NCBI

About cheese having higher tyrosine, yes but most people are eating far more meats or eggs than they are cheese. My protein is not all cheese and I'm eating less than 50 grams a day. So to me it's not important.
I didn't understooded why you mentioned eggs and meats since the discussion is on what can be fishy about casein.

There's about 1100 IU of vitamin A in every kg of raw milk.

4% of its composition is fat:

upload_2018-11-6_14-55-41.png

Source: internet.​

So, 40 g of fat in every kg of milch. Therefore, those 1100 IU of vitamin A are found in 40 g of fat, and you have 28 IU A/g of fat.

The cream is removed before the hands, so not a lot of damage happens to retinol up to that stage and the casein is intact, which seems what you're concerned about.

BulkSupplements sells a casein that has <1 g of fat in 30 g of product but it also contains lecithin. I have no idea how great is the lecithin contribution, but if we suppose that it contains 0.5 g from the imperfect skimming process:

28 IU * 0.5 g = 14 IU of vitamin A in every serving of their casein.​

But in the experiment that you posted (it's from the contractual term, isn't it?), they used Janelle pure casein and vitamin A. In milk, casein would probably react with other components as well and they will prevent such interaction and the amounts are probably lowered further.
By the way, if it's true that zinc (for example) becomes less accessible when casein curdles, people might overestimate their intake. But I digest.

The authors also commented something about retinol complexes being more stable than retinoic acid.

With all this together, I suspect it's easier to find an illiterate in Netherlands than to have such problems with casein due to what can happen to its vitamin A.
 
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InChristAlone

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I didn't understooded why you mentioned eggs and meats since the discussion is on what can be fishy about casein.

There's about 1100 IU of vitamin A in every kg of raw milk.

4% of its composition is fat:

View attachment 11198
Source: internet.​

So, 40 g of fat in every kg of milch. Therefore, those 1100 IU of vitamin A are found in 40 g of fat, and you have 28 IU A/g of fat.

The cream is removed before the hands, so not a lot of damage happens to retinol up to that stage and the casein is intact, which seems what you're concerned about.

BulkSupplements sells a casein that has <1 g of fat in 30 g of product but it also contains lecithin. I have no idea how great is the lecithin contribution, but if we suppose that it contains 0.5 g from the imperfect skimming process:

28 IU * 0.5 g = 14 IU of vitamin A in every serving of their casein.​

But in the experiment that you posted (it's from the contractual term, isn't it?), they used Janelle pure casein and vitamin A. In milk, casein would probably react with other components as well and they will prevent such interaction and the amounts are probably lowered further.
By the way, if it's true that zinc (for example) becomes less accessible when casein curdles, people might overestimate their intake. But I digest.

The authors also commented something about retinol complexes being more stable than retinoic acid.

With all this together, I suspect it's easier to find an illiterate in Netherlands than to have such problems with casein due to what can happen to its vitamin A.
Good point, but the question is, are there retinoids distributed throughout milk (attached to casein) that aren't accounted for? My original point was a rabbit's diet is mainly green food, not milk protein, so it is very abnormal for them and I am not surprised by their results. Unlike humans which can thrive on milk proteins throughout their lives. I personally feel better with cheese as a portion of my diet. But I have made note I need to get in zinc. I use cheese as a source of good calcium, protein, and saturated fats. I will only go back to milk drinking if I can access it raw. I don't do well getting all my protein from meat. And I sure as heck am not going to try being vegan. I am considering going lower in vitamin A though because of a chronic skin condition (that was never cured by more of it).
 
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Good point, but the question is, are there retinoids distributed throughout milk (attached to casein) that aren't accounted for? My original point was a rabbit's diet is mainly green food, not milk protein, so it is very abnormal for them and I am not surprised by their results. Unlike humans which can thrive on milk proteins throughout their lives. I personally feel better with cheese as a portion of my diet. But I have made note I need to get in zinc. I use cheese as a source of good calcium, protein, and saturated fats. I will only go back to milk drinking if I can access it raw. I don't do well getting all my protein from meat. And I sure as heck am not going to try being vegan. I am considering going lower in vitamin A though because of a chronic skin condition (that was never cured by more of it).
I guess the likely moment that binding of nutrients occurs is when it curdles. Most (if not all) fat is removed before curdling or heat treatment, so they're probably still free.

As you know, rabbits (and rats) are mammals and these experiments (there were others posted here as well, if I'm not wrong) involve young animals with not much time having elapsed since winning, so they're quite adapted to casein. Yet! Soy was less detrimental and it's due to the amino acid imbalance in casein. Glycine alleviated this regardless of their ear size or eye color.
 
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InChristAlone

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I guess the likely moment that binding of nutrients occurs is when it curdles. Most (if not all) fat is removed before curdling or heat treatment, so they're probably still free.

As you know, rabbits (and rats) are mammals and these experiments (there were others posted here as well, if I'm not wrong) involve young animals with not much time having elapsed since winning, so they're quite adapted to casein. Yet! Soy was less detrimental and it's due to the amino acid imbalance in casein. Glycine alleviated this regardless of their ear size or eye color.
But still what rabbit or rat or human uses only casein for their protein? If they are nursing they are getting both casein and whey. Weston A Price found healthy cultures eating cheese. Not to mention the French and Italian still eat a lot of it and I don't see them dropping dead at 50. I do see Americans having tons of health problems and they do not consume parmigiano reggiano as their main protein. This just seems like an attack on cheese!
 
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But still what rabbit or rat or human uses only casein for their protein? If they are nursing they are getting both casein and whey. Weston A Price found healthy cultures eating cheese. Not to mention the French and Italian still eat a lot of it and I don't see them dropping dead at 50. I do see Americans having tons of health problems and they do not consume parmigiano reggiano as their main protein. This just seems like an attack on cheese!
The standard lab diets for mice (AIN) have casein as protein souce, the majority of experiments use them. You can't trust such experiments anymore. But this is where you see problems appearing because the animals have no choice: they either starve or eat the imposed food. When people lack a nutrient in their diets, they compensate elsewhere, but what are these animals supposed to do? The imbalances become evident. So if a person is going to eat just casein, it's worth knowing what are those.
 

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The standard lab diets for mice (AIN) have casein as protein souce, the majority of experiments use them. You can't trust such experiments anymore. But this is where you see problems appearing because the animals have no choice: they either starve or eat the imposed food. When people lack a nutrient in their diets, they compensate elsewhere, but what are these animals supposed to do? The imbalances become evident. So if a person is going to eat just casein, it's worth knowing what are those.
Fair enough, good to know if you only use casein that you should be getting other sources of protein as well and maybe more zinc.
 
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- Commentary: Differential Effects of High-Protein Diets Derived from Soy and Casein on Blood-Brain Barrier Integrity in Wild-type Mice (author of the original experiment of this thread)

"Following repeated observations that a high-protein diet may induce cognitive decline, and that proteins from various foods demonstrate differential effects on cognition, the recent study by Snelson et al. (1) examined potential mechanisms in a murine model. The team compared protein from different sources for influence on blood brain barrier permeability and inflammation, which are increasingly accepted as pivotal measures for central nervous system function. As casein showed much stronger effects than soy protein—having much higher methionine compared to soy protein, which is higher in cysteine—and methionine being the leading amino acid associated with elevated plasma homocysteine (Hcy) levels (2, 3), it may be assumed that high Hcy is involved in these damaging processes in the brain."

"Previous studies reported that high Hcy is associated with compromised cerebrovascular function, including blood brain barrier dysfunction (4), increased permeability and neuroinflammation (5, 6), and structural and functional alterations via promotion of oxidative stress (7), with methionine being the leading amino acid associated with elevated plasma Hcy levels (2, 3)."

"A recent clinical study on a high-casein meal—incorporating large oral boli of 5% fat and 11% protein cottage cheese, which has mostly casein protein—showed that blood Hcy was moderately increased for about 5–8 h postprandially (8). However, this Hcy response to cheese was reduced by acute addition of vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) and folic acid. These B-vitamins, in addition to B2 (riboflavin) and B12 (cobalamin), are highly active in the methionine metabolic cycle, but largely removed with whey in the cheese production process (Figure 1) (8). Especially vulnerable is vitamin B6, a key cofactor in Hcy metabolism (9), highly dominant in the trans-sulfuration stage and critical under high-protein conditions. While the required minimum B6:protein ratio is 15–20 μg B6/g protein (10), that of cottage cheese is generally much lower, i.e., ≈1.86 μg/g (≈6.2-fold lower than the ≥11.52 μg/g of milk (11), and lower than experimental vitamin B6-depleting diet providing <0.5 μg/g (10, 12). Thus, high casein intake (including through cottage cheese) can correspondingly be perceived as a highly B6-deficient/demanding meal that if not co-supplemented, may temporarily increase Hcy."

"Together, these studies emphasize that the potential for damage attributable to casein—through its high methionine content compared to soy protein having high cysteine content, as shown in the rat study—may be applicable to human diet, i.e., in case of high cottage cheese consumption, shown to be associated with transient (for several hours) increases in Hcy. This may suggest that high-casein foods—primarily cheese—would be better consumed together with complementary B-vitamins, preferably from foods—especially B6, e.g., from fish, poultry, sweet potato, potato, sunflower seeds, spinach, banana, and folic-acid, e.g., from beans, spinach, broccoli, leafy vegetables, tomato, bell pepper, carrots, oranges—that may compensate for the secondary B-vitamin insufficiency resulting from their removal with whey during cheese production, and would prevent temporary increase of Hcy."​
 

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What if the cheese is raw? There should be more vitamins compared to pasteurized cheese.
 

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