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The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein

Amazoniac

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After Travis' insistence on the dangers of elevated homocysteine levels, it reminded me of a suspicion that cheeses are a refined food, just like muscle meat without other parts of the animal, and so it must have negative effects if you consume a lot without compensating for the loss. To his delight, in this experiment homocysteine rose from cheese methionine due to a lack of sufficient B-vitamins.

Cheese ‘refinement’ with whey B-vitamin removal during precipitation potentially induces temporal ‘functional’ dietary shortage: homocysteine as a biomarker - Food & Function (RSC Publishing)

"Cheese potentially becoming a refined food following precipitation and removal of whey, with massive losses of innate whey B-vitamins[12] relative to retained protein/methionine (MET) content (United States Department of Agriculture [USDA] Food Composition Database), may also induce metabolic/health disadvantages, similarly to those associated with refined grains.
Cheese losses ≈70% of B1, B2, and B3; ≈76% of B12–essential for protein metabolism and re-methylation of Hcy back to MET, for brain function, and DNA and hemoglobin production; and up to 84% loss of B6–required in proportional amounts to protein for its metabolism [13] and further for cardiovascular[14], bone[15]-[17] and brain health[18]."

"While vitamin B6, being a key cofactor in Hcy metabolism(Fig. 1)[19], is especially critical under high-protein conditions[20][21], cottage cheese – having a high protein/MET content – may yield a very low B6 level of ≈1.86μg/g protein (≈6.2-fold lower than in milk, ≥11.52μg/g) (USDA data). This level is far below the minimum B6:protein ratio considered sufficient for women (15-20μg/g)[13], and lower than the threshold (<0.5 μg/g) used for experimental induction of a vitamin B6-depleting diet[13][22]. Thus, cottage cheese can correspondingly be perceived as a B6-depleting food, which may induce an acute/temporal dietary flow shortage, potentially reflected by increased Hcy."

"Interestingly, though animal protein foods such as meat are high in all essential amino acids – including high MET content, the only dietary source of Hcy – increasing animal protein intakes did not consistently raise plasma Hcy[23][24], and in certain cases even decreased it[25]. This is because most animal proteins are also rich in B-vitamins, i.e. B6 and B12, which can lower plasma Hcy concentrations[26] (see Fig. 1). Here cheese is a notable exception, as it may potentially induce increased Hcy, due to its high ratio of protein/MET to B-vitamins, i.e. B6 and B12."

"in contrast to the expectation of dairy products (as animal protein) to be sources of B12, certain cheeses may induce an episodic dietary B12 shortage, potentially conferring metabolic risks, though with delayed health manifestations[27]. The 28.7% increase in Hcy found here (Fig. 3a) was much higher than shown in previous studies with other comparable animal proteins, i.e. meat[54], and some studies showing no increase. This is because most animal proteins such as meat, poultry, and fish, retain their innate B-vitamin content, resulting in cottage cheese having much higher protein:B-vitamin ratios, i.e. a ≈4-fold higher MET:B6 ratio and ≈2-fold higher MET:B12 ratio than beef (USDA Food Composition Database)."

"Extension of elevated Hcy to the next morning after the cheese load (24 hours) may further suggest that high, repeated, and habitual consumption of certain types of cheese may increase the cumulative effects of exposure to B-vitamin shortages, when high protein/MET intake is unopposed by B-vitamin co-supplementation/compensation."

"The potential of B6±folic acid co-administration to reduce the plasma Hcy response indicated here supports consideration of functional cheese fortification and/or recommendation for combinations with complementary foods high in B-vitamins, i.e. high-folate green leafy vegetables and/or oranges, to be consumed with cheese meals."

"The selection of female participants for the present study is justified by their expected high responsiveness to cheese-induced acute/temporal B6 shortage, due to their predisposition to hormone-induced lowered plasma B6 levels"
"Additional at-risk groups are lactovegetarians, subjects adhering to the DASH diet against hypertension, and those genetically predisposed to high Hcy, i.e. with a MTHFR mutation, who may be more predisposed to risk of cheese-induced B6 and B12 deficiencies."

upload_2018-1-6_8-27-59.png
upload_2018-1-6_8-29-15.png

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A Notion For The Nutrient Losses When Yogurt Is Strained
 

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Tenacity

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Peat always did recommend that dairy be eaten with fruit, didn't he?
 

squanch

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So how could we increase B1, B6, B9 and B12 to without synthetic supplements?

B9:
Relatively easy with leafy greens (juicing lettuce for example).
Beets are very high as well.

B12:
Also easy with liver and oysters

B1 and B6 are the difficult ones:
I recently discovered that the brand of yerba mate that I have lying around at home is actually quite high in exactly those two vitamins (~ 50 % each for 50 g yerba mate extracted in 500 ml hot water). It's surprisingly difficult to find any reliable nutrition information for yerba mate though. The different brands have vastly different information and are often incomplete.

Nutritional yeast would be a very good source for pretty much all the b-vitamins. It does have some downsides though, there are a few threads discussing it.

There are some new types of b-complex supplements on the market that consist of dried powder of different sprouts. The seeds are sprouted in a nutrient solution of synthetic b-vitamins, they convert the synthetic vitamins into different "natural" forms and store them. At least that's how the customer service guy explained it to me when I emailed them. Apparently it's some kind of new patented process. That's one of those products for example.
(only in German, sorry). Not sure what to think about it to be honest.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
1,812
After Travis' insistence on the dangers of elevated homocysteine levels, it reminded me of a suspicion that cheeses are a refined food, just like muscle meat without other parts of the animal, and so it must have negative effects if you consume a lot without compensating for the loss. To his delight, in this experiment homocysteine rose from cheese methionine due to a lack of sufficient B-vitamins.

Cheese ‘refinement’ with whey B-vitamin removal during precipitation potentially induces temporal ‘functional’ dietary shortage: homocysteine as a biomarker - Food & Function (RSC Publishing)

"Cheese potentially becoming a refined food following precipitation and removal of whey, with massive losses of innate whey B-vitamins[12] relative to retained protein/methionine (MET) content (United States Department of Agriculture [USDA] Food Composition Database), may also induce metabolic/health disadvantages, similarly to those associated with refined grains.
Cheese losses ≈70% of B1, B2, and B3; ≈76% of B12–essential for protein metabolism and re-methylation of Hcy back to MET, for brain function, and DNA and hemoglobin production; and up to 84% loss of B6–required in proportional amounts to protein for its metabolism [13] and further for cardiovascular[14], bone[15]-[17] and brain health[18]."

"While vitamin B6, being a key cofactor in Hcy metabolism(Fig. 1)[19], is especially critical under high-protein conditions[20][21], cottage cheese – having a high protein/MET content – may yield a very low B6 level of ≈1.86μg/g protein (≈6.2-fold lower than in milk, ≥11.52μg/g) (USDA data). This level is far below the minimum B6:protein ratio considered sufficient for women (15-20μg/g)[13], and lower than the threshold (<0.5 μg/g) used for experimental induction of a vitamin B6-depleting diet[13][22]. Thus, cottage cheese can correspondingly be perceived as a B6-depleting food, which may induce an acute/temporal dietary flow shortage, potentially reflected by increased Hcy."

"Interestingly, though animal protein foods such as meat are high in all essential amino acids – including high MET content, the only dietary source of Hcy – increasing animal protein intakes did not consistently raise plasma Hcy[23][24], and in certain cases even decreased it[25]. This is because most animal proteins are also rich in B-vitamins, i.e. B6 and B12, which can lower plasma Hcy concentrations[26] (see Fig. 1). Here cheese is a notable exception, as it may potentially induce increased Hcy, due to its high ratio of protein/MET to B-vitamins, i.e. B6 and B12."

"in contrast to the expectation of dairy products (as animal protein) to be sources of B12, certain cheeses may induce an episodic dietary B12 shortage, potentially conferring metabolic risks, though with delayed health manifestations[27]. The 28.7% increase in Hcy found here (Fig. 3a) was much higher than shown in previous studies with other comparable animal proteins, i.e. meat[54], and some studies showing no increase. This is because most animal proteins such as meat, poultry, and fish, retain their innate B-vitamin content, resulting in cottage cheese having much higher protein:B-vitamin ratios, i.e. a ≈4-fold higher MET:B6 ratio and ≈2-fold higher MET:B12 ratio than beef (USDA Food Composition Database)."

"Extension of elevated Hcy to the next morning after the cheese load (24 hours) may further suggest that high, repeated, and habitual consumption of certain types of cheese may increase the cumulative effects of exposure to B-vitamin shortages, when high protein/MET intake is unopposed by B-vitamin co-supplementation/compensation."

"The potential of B6±folic acid co-administration to reduce the plasma Hcy response indicated here supports consideration of functional cheese fortification and/or recommendation for combinations with complementary foods high in B-vitamins, i.e. high-folate green leafy vegetables and/or oranges, to be consumed with cheese meals."

"The selection of female participants for the present study is justified by their expected high responsiveness to cheese-induced acute/temporal B6 shortage, due to their predisposition to hormone-induced lowered plasma B6 levels"
"Additional at-risk groups are lactovegetarians, subjects adhering to the DASH diet against hypertension, and those genetically predisposed to high Hcy, i.e. with a MTHFR mutation, who may be more predisposed to risk of cheese-induced B6 and B12 deficiencies."


__
A Notion For The Nutrient Losses When Yogurt Is Strained

wow man, really good post, i didnt know this was possible. it makes a lot of sense. i wonder, what is the half life of these B vitamins? i've talked to ray, he said you don't need B vitamins everyday, but does the 1x a week liver really cover it? i always felt better after eating meat or eating liver. what is amazing to me about your post is you talk about b6 being depleted.... could that mean prolactin can be chronically elevated from not having enough b6 from too much dairy? brewers yeast is high in mostly all the B vitamins except b12 i think and biotin, but it's really high in phosphate, so it would need calcium with it, still not sure how "safe" it is though
 

Amazoniac

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Peat always did recommend that dairy be eaten with fruit, didn't he?
I'm not confident that they are enough to compensate for the loss unless you include more foods with high concentration of nutrients in your diet, such as organ meats, leafy greens; those can make up for it. But then comes the problem that mayweather talked about: under stress nutrients are depleted very fast, so it's more supportive and better if you can have more balanced meals.
could that mean prolactin can be chronically elevated from not having enough b6 from too much dairy?
And possibly related to the infamous serotonin, right? I've been suggesting Zeus to include a B-vitamin complex extract from natural sources in his store, I suspect many people could benefit from it. But regardless of that, no one eats cheese in massive amounts, so there has to be a reason for it, and this should explain it. Problems always appear when you have excess amino acids coming in but can't metabolize them.
Calcium-Phosphorous Ratio Of Cheeses
 
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Stud

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so meat is better than? cause cheese is al I eat for protein
 

Amazoniac

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I sometimes eat just that. Literally. Not too uncommon in some European places.
Interesting ..that you are alive!! But personally I never met anyone that did such thing. Not even one case. I think it's less concerning on a low-carb diet though.
We have to reunite the gurus of this forum and reach a consensus because I can't work this out on what is right and wrong based on your habits, they are so different but all culminate in giant heads.
 
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And possibly related to the infamous serotonin, right? I've been suggesting Zeus to include a B-vitamin complex extract from natural sources to his store, I suspect many people could benefit from it. But regardless of that, no one eats cheese in massive amounts, so there has to be a reason for it, and this should explain it. Problems always appear when you have excess amino acids coming in but can't metabolize them.
Calcium-Phosphorous Ratio Of Cheeses

yeah that would be good. even milk isn't really that amazing for B vitamins.. i see a quart has 25% of B6, even at 2 quarts, 50% of B6 might not be enough to lower it? plus low in niacin.

989xehX.png
 

Amazoniac

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yeah that would be good. even milk isn't really that amazing for B vitamins.. i see a quart has 25% of B6, even at 2 quarts, 50% of B6 might not be enough to lower it? plus low in niacin.

989xehX.png
jyb mentioned in another thread how milk is supposed to be a food that supports steady fat burning. When you reduce the fat content you're already processing it and so you have to adapt based on what has changed to fit your needs.
But when it comes to milk with fruits, I think they're enough to balance it.
 
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jyb mentioned in another thread how milk is supposed to be a food that supports steady fat burning. When you reduce the fat content you're already processing it and so you have to adapt based on what has changed to fit your needs.
But when it comes to milk with fruits, I think they're enough to balance it.

i see... yeah i have noticed at times positive reactions to milk as opposed to cheese. i wonder how deep this goes... many people who go on peat have issues with milk/cheese right away.. many people blame the bacteria, which makes sense, but i feel like many of the hormones are off wack when someone first gets on peat, especially prolactin... so many guys who have hair loss can't handle milk/cheese right away.. maybe a lot of it has to do with B vitamins.. just thinking out loud, anway good stuff to know, i want to look into more of homo-cysteine, i dont know a ton about it
 

Glassy

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I ate up to 1,2 kg cottagecheese the last four weeks :( Am I doomed now?

Lol I ate a kilo of cottage cheese yesterday and eat about 3-4 kg of it per week. Pretty sure I’m not dead yet.

I chopped up a leg of lamb/mutton and made an Irish stew in the pressure cooker last night. I added about 30g of gelatine powder once cooked and cooked it with the bone in (a little connective tissue was in there). Tasted and felt amazing.

I think I’m going to be using the pressure cooker more and getting a b vit supplement to top my weekly liver dish.

I love my cottage cheese though and it’s usually the first heavier thing I eat in the day (500g straight from the tub).
 

sugarbabe

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I eat cheese instead of milk, have been for over a year. I do eat meats though. Some days my protein is coming from cheese. I definitely need sources of dense nutrition eating this way but I'm doing way better than I was as a milk drinker. Maybe I'd do fine on milk now not sure. Bananas are my major B6 and potassium source. They are a good food in my book.

I thought getting rid of the whey portion was recommended? To lower the tryptophan content.
 

chimdp

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Interesting post @Amazoniac I typically can't eat too much traditional dairy, more so because of getting increased acne/cystic acne than stomach problems, however, I've also seemed to react poorly to any calcium supplement (seems to cause mental side effects, anxiety, brain fog, etc.) I've tried eggshell, Tums, citrate all with the same effects even when taken with Mg and the fat solubles. But not eating any dairy had me worried about my calcium to phosphate ratio. To make a long story short, I've recently introduced Parmigiano Reggiano and have been eating about 4oz a day to get my calcium up and as a protein source. This is from Whole Foods and sourced from Italy with the only ingredients being Unpasteurized Cow's Milk, Salt, and Rennet. I'm wondering if A) the unpasteurized milk is why I'm able to tolerate better than tradition US Pasteurized products? and B) are more simply produced cheeses like Parmigiano less prone to the whey loss? I'm not an expert on cheese making but from wikipedia on Parmigiano it sounds like there is whey leftover, but not sure if some is incorporated into the cheese.

While writing this post I found the following article which does show Parmigiano to be a high quality food source for several reasons, including a high b-vitamin content, so it sort of answers part of my own questions (pending the data is reliable), but thought it'd be help for others if you're looking for a good cheese that doesn't have the crap US cheese might have it. I've been grating it on a few things but otherwise just eating 1oz cubes of it throughout the day

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/07/04/nutritional-values-parmigiano-reggiano/
 

sugarbabe

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Interesting post @Amazoniac I typically can't eat too much traditional dairy, more so because of getting increased acne/cystic acne than stomach problems, however, I've also seemed to react poorly to any calcium supplement (seems to cause mental side effects, anxiety, brain fog, etc.) I've tried eggshell, Tums, citrate all with the same effects even when taken with Mg and the fat solubles. But not eating any dairy had me worried about my calcium to phosphate ratio. To make a long story short, I've recently introduced Parmigiano Reggiano and have been eating about 4oz a day to get my calcium up and as a protein source. This is from Whole Foods and sourced from Italy with the only ingredients being Unpasteurized Cow's Milk, Salt, and Rennet. I'm wondering if A) the unpasteurized milk is why I'm able to tolerate better than tradition US Pasteurized products? and B) are more simply produced cheeses like Parmigiano less prone to the whey loss? I'm not an expert on cheese making but from wikipedia on Parmigiano it sounds like there is whey leftover, but not sure if some is incorporated into the cheese.

While writing this post I found the following article which does show Parmigiano to be a high quality food source for several reasons, including a high b-vitamin content, so it sort of answers part of my own questions (pending the data is reliable), but thought it'd be help for others if you're looking for a good cheese that doesn't have the crap US cheese might have it. I've been grating it on a few things but otherwise just eating 1oz cubes of it throughout the day

Nutritional Values – Parmigiano Reggiano – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Parm is a good food! My favorite.
 

Amazoniac

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Interesting post @Amazoniac I typically can't eat too much traditional dairy, more so because of getting increased acne/cystic acne than stomach problems, however, I've also seemed to react poorly to any calcium supplement (seems to cause mental side effects, anxiety, brain fog, etc.) I've tried eggshell, Tums, citrate all with the same effects even when taken with Mg and the fat solubles. But not eating any dairy had me worried about my calcium to phosphate ratio. To make a long story short, I've recently introduced Parmigiano Reggiano and have been eating about 4oz a day to get my calcium up and as a protein source. This is from Whole Foods and sourced from Italy with the only ingredients being Unpasteurized Cow's Milk, Salt, and Rennet. I'm wondering if A) the unpasteurized milk is why I'm able to tolerate better than tradition US Pasteurized products? and B) are more simply produced cheeses like Parmigiano less prone to the whey loss? I'm not an expert on cheese making but from wikipedia on Parmigiano it sounds like there is whey leftover, but not sure if some is incorporated into the cheese.

While writing this post I found the following article which does show Parmigiano to be a high quality food source for several reasons, including a high b-vitamin content, so it sort of answers part of my own questions (pending the data is reliable), but thought it'd be help for others if you're looking for a good cheese that doesn't have the crap US cheese might have it. I've been grating it on a few things but otherwise just eating 1oz cubes of it throughout the day

Nutritional Values – Parmigiano Reggiano – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
European gurus comment that dairy in the US and A is weird.
I believe when raw cheeses are curdled with animal rennet you have the best retention of nutrients.

I'm not telling anyone to stop eating cheese. I'm just pointing out that eating it in large amounts is unusual and it probably has to do with the losses from processing (beyond vit b6), otherwise a lot people would have abandoned meat consumption a long time ago. Also that it's wise to make up for those with other foods, preferentially on the same meal.
 

lvysaur

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I have never eaten ricotta cheese without tons of milk. Aged cheeses are probably toxic in large amounts, maybe excepting chevre and a few others. They're basically constipation pills.

Pasteurization and homogenization both induce lactulose formation. This is a sugar that is even harder to digest than lactose (gal-fruc instead of gal-gluc). I think that the most important thing is homogenization, it's worse than normal pasteurization.

Pretty sure this is why milk tastes "sweeter" the more cooked it is.
 
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