The Connection Of Serotonin And Bowel Movements?

[Terma]

Yeah sometimes both those sources come up with good ideas. I won't really have time to comment more right now. The 5-HT2c receptor is particularly related to circadian processes (i.e. its pattern of activation could become inverted, like cortisol, in sick people): Sci-Hub | Serotonin 5-HT2c agonists mimic the effect of light pulses on circadian rhythms. Brain Research, 806(2), 257–270 | 10.1016/s0006-8993(98)00746-x, Dysregulation of Diurnal Rhythms of Serotonin 5-HT2C and Corticosteroid Receptor Gene Expression in the Hippocampus with Food Restriction and Glucocorticoids

I'm interested in the Area1255 guy's idea of post-synaptic 5-HT1a overactivation inhibiting these processes, because that one sometimes seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing, but I would have to read more of his references. (It is one of the things to suspect if someone says they have problems yet low anxiety)
Good luck with the licorice, can't make predictions on that one today (they tend to avoid that here, because of the aldosterone effects iirc... tool for the job). Watch out for some things: Effect of eating liquorice on the renin-angiotensin aldosterone axis in normal subjects.

There's too much material, but he linked one which is particularly interesting to me although it only loosely relates to yours - it combines several topics together:
ACTIVATION OF PPAR GAMMA RECEPTORS REDUCES LEVODOPA-INDUCED DYSKINESIAS IN 6-OHDA-LESIONED RATS

Long-term administration of L-3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine (levodopa), the mainstay treatment for Parkinson’s disease (PD), is accompanied by fluctuations in its duration of action and motor complications (dyskinesia) that dramatically affect the quality of life of patients. Levodopa-induced dyskinesias (LID) can be modeled in rats with unilateral 6-OHDA lesions via chronic administration of levodopa, which causes increasingly severe axial, limb and oro-facial abnormal involuntary movements (AIMs) over time. In previous studies, we showed that direct activation of CB1 cannabinoid receptors alleviated rat AIMs. Interestingly, elevation of the endocannabinoid anandamide by URB597 (URB), an inhibitor of endocannabinoid catabolism, produced an anti-dyskinetic response that was only partially mediated via CB1 receptors and required the concomitant blockade of transient receptor potential vanilloid type-1 (TRPV1) channels by capsazepine (CPZ) [1]. In this study, we showed that stimulation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR), a family of transcription factors activated by anandamide, contributes to the anti-dyskinetic effects of URB+CPZ, and that direct activation of the PPARγ subtype by rosiglitazone (RGZ) alleviates levodopa-induced AIMs in 6-OHDA rats. AIM reduction was associated with an attenuation of levodopa-induced increase of dynorphin, zif-268 and of ERK phosphorylation in the denervated striatum. RGZ treatment did not decrease striatal levodopa and dopamine bioavailability, nor did it affect levodopa antiparkinsonian activity. Collectively, these data indicate that PPARγ may represent a new pharmacological target for the treatment of LID.

(Cannabinoids go nuclear: evidence for activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors)

 

[Astolfo]

@Terma Yeah, so for a while I'm only planning to continue licorice tea. I drinked a cup of tea several hours ago. I felt uneasyness in my inside, and I'm still feeling very weird today. However, I have two concern. Hypokalemia and hemorrhage.

Posterior reversible encephalopathy syndrome associated with licorice consumption: a case report in a 10-year-old boy. - PubMed - NCBI

Licorice consumption-associated thunderclap headache: posterior reversible encephalopathy syndrome or subarachnoid hemorrhage?

LICORICE-ASSOCIATED REVERSIBLE CEREBRAL VASOCONSTRICTION WITH PRES(CME)

He had been eating licorice toffees for a period of 4 months, consuming an estimated 72 mg of glycyrrhizic acid per day; this led to our assumption of the reason for his hypertension.

I was planning to take way more than 72 mg. 10-12 grams of licorice sticks contain more than 72 mg.

I already had some problems with my brain. I had really really bad headaches after my aspirin trial and to this day, I experience very mild pain sometimes. I'm not saying I got some sort of hemorrhage at that time, but my brain is more sensitive to changes. I even got mild headache yesterday night. I still have very very mild headache right now. Also, yesterday night, my body was like shaking uncontrollably. It was very mild also stopped when I wake up.

Do you have any opinion? Should I continue to licorice or stop?

Btw, it helps libido. I feel it helps.

 

[Astolfo]

It helped with energy. Cognitive impairment is at the same level, but I feel like there is an additional energy source in my brain.

I drink half a cup of coffee. I'm not sure if it's the dumbest thing ever but I don't want to experience rebound effect. Do you think I would be okay if I don't experience really bad headaches?

 

[Terma]

Personally I'd have no choice to suggest you stop it after that, simply because I don't know how licorice would help in the first place - you'd have to consult with whoever's idea that was again, but I couldn't tell you to continue that. Caffeine will distort your experiment, most likely, and you'd have to plan for caffeine withdrawal first or otherwise taper it somewhat. If you meant to continue it then half a cup of coffee is not bad (if I were in your shoes, I would try decaf coffee and even also low-/med-dose caffeine pills, separately, just to isolate if it's really the caffeine you want or one of the other compounds, albeit I forget what compounds are retained in decaf; decaf might tide you over).

 

[Astolfo]

@Terma I'm not planning to continue drinking coffee, also I already started to taper it off. I have been only drinking half a cup every morning to prevent rebound effect. I'm gonna reduce it to zero.

I'm taking licorice because I think it could be help me in the long term. I have read that any external stressor can reset adrenals and cure adrenal fatigue. At this point, the only external stressor I can apply is synthetic corticosteroids or licorice.

I got that information from pssdforum and hackstasis. I don't remember the exact place I got that information.

Btw, my gut problems decreased a little bit, I think. Also excessive daytime sleepiness is less now. I feel more alive throughout the day also.

I haven't saw any reverse on the cognitive deteoriation though.

My only concern is, as I said, PERS. Long term licorice is known to cause AME and encephalopathy. I can take my sodium intake at minimum but I'm not sure if it's enough. Also hypokalemia.

 

[Astolfo]

It really helps with my gut problems. But there is still a problem and I think, this article has something to do with it.

5-HT2C receptor activation prevents stress-induced enhancement of brain 5-HT turnover and extracellular levels in the mouse brain: modulation by chro... - PubMed - NCBI

5HT2C receptor prevents 5HT from flooding the brain in times of acute stress. Downregulated 5HT2C receptors from chronic high level of serotonin could be culprit of my loss of anxiety and sudden bowel and muscle reactions. I get myoclonic jerks only at the time when I have some sort of psychological discomfort. Serotonin is known to possibly cause muscle jerks. Here is the @haidut 's post and also there are additional articles about 5HT2C.

Tremor In Parkinson Disease (PD) Is Due To High Serotonin

5-HT2C receptor agonists as potential drugs for the treatment of obesity. - PubMed - NCBI

5-HT2CRs expressed by pro-opiomelanocortin neurons regulate energy homeostasis. - PubMed - NCBI


Do you think that kudzu root is what helped that one member on pssdforum to recover? Afaik' it's an antiserotonergic herb.

 

[Astolfo]

Today is the 3rd day. As I said, I have gained some energy back, but I have still been experiencing CFS. And, I don't know but it seems I have been feeling even more sedated at this night today. I drink licorice usually at evenings, and ı wake up with some mild headache. I hope I don't cause anything but I'm not sure if this is safe to continue licorice root tea.

One of the biggest minus. My tinnitus is much worse. Right now, I can even hear it while I'm in a noisy room.

 

[Astolfo]

@Terma I again pee a bit more yellow like I used to be. I don't know if it's because the elevated cortisol compensates something or because that disinhibited cortisol synthesis stimulates mineralocorticoid receptors more than enough, tho.

Licorice slowed down my gut. Actually, I could be constipated at this point. But that is how I was pre-ssri, so I don't see much of a problem. Probably, it balanced(!) symphatetic/parasympathetic balance again.


Look what I have found! Do you remember that my gut problems increase "a lot" when I'm hungry or drink too much coffee?(insulin response I guess(sometimes I smell keto breath))

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19960039888.pdf

ABSTRACT
Insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia may contribute to the development of arterial hypertension. Although insulin may elevate arterial pressure, in part,
through activation of the sympathetic nervous system, the sites and mechanisms
of insulin-induced sympathetic excitation remain uncertain. While : sympathoexeitation during insulin may be mediated by the baroreflex, or by modulation ofnorepinephrine release from sympathetic nerve endings, it has been shown repeatedly that insulin increases sympathetic outflow by actions on the : central nervous system. Previous studies employing norepinephrine turnover have suggested that insulin causes sympathoexcitation by acting in the hypothalamus. Recent experiments from our laboratory involving direct measurements of
regional sympathetic nerve activity have provided further evidence that insulin acts in the central nervous system.

 

[Terma]

Well I'm happy something is happening for you. Honestly I'm going to be too tired for awhile to comment properly because I have to focus on some circadian rhythm issues of my own (this is a crazy time), work etc., so it's not a good time for me to give advice.

I can say that 5-HT2c agonists for the purpose of weight loss like that article suggests sounds like a terrible idea. Most likely the safe way to restore normal (circadian) 5-HT2c function is to cut off serotonin release for awhile and provide the nutrition required for the receptor assembly, and then let the serotonin come back after the system is less stressed and normalizes. Or something along those lines. Maybe an antagonist but I can't remember how that receptor reacts to them in all cases and the other receptors will matter too. (The only reason I would use a 5-HT2c agonist is at a strategic time during the day for shifting/enabling a circadian rhythm, temporarily, and it would be in combination with several other things)

As for herbs I swore off them entirely 4 years ago (too many unresearched compounds in them, chinese pollution, they tend to work through hormesis, etc.) so I'd leave those to someone else to comment. Licorice I did try myself in the past and I actually had a natural taste for it, but wouldn't anymore.

Slowing down the gut could be quite useful, however. For a substance with several pros and cons, that could be a deciding factor in whether to use it or not (sorry I can't tell you that) since nutrient absorption and gut health is dramatically critical. I have to leave it at that for now. Good luck.

 

[Terma]

(If I think of anything I'll let you know of course. I'm just not reading at the moment and had at least 100 interesting articles pending. After you've fixed your problems, find me the mystical perfect photographic memory hormone :P)

 

[Astolfo]

Ok, ok, I understand. I wish lots of good luck to you too. I'm gonna spend my time on 2CRs.

Btw, maybe that much less of bowel movement maybe a problem. I don't experience much discomfort but I haven't been poop for days. It's nearly been 5 days and I still don't have urge to poop. Also my fart now has sulfur like smell. I don't even eat meats, egg or anything for days.

I have found an another article about 2C and metabolic syndrome.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1586/erc.09.123

 

[Astolfo]

I have to stop licorice. It's frustrating as hell, but I have to stop one more thing with an adverse effect.

My tinnitus have been a lot worse for a week. I started to hear the noise even in the day. It nearly became problematic and I hope It resolve as soon as possible. I don't want it to persist like how Aspirin made my tinnitus worse.

 

[Astolfo]

Tinnitus is "really" bad. Also the headache. I regret to start licorice to be honest.

Today is been 5th day. I really have no urge to poop. Licorice made me constipated.

I'm giving more and more reactions to foods. Half a hour ago, I had to take some lactulose to make it help me poop(it haven't helped yet btw). And I started to sneezing. That was not the case months ago, I had tried lactulose before too.

There is some autoimmune reaction going on in my body and I haven't been succeed to find a remedy without a side effect.

 

[Terma]

Keep in mind you changed your coffee intake. It contains chlorogenic acid or another I forget that stimulates bile, good for some people but things that do that can worsen diarrhea, and maybe you took that out. You could try decaf to figure that part out. Tinnitus heals eventually, but I don't know what fixed mine (somewhere between minerals, zinc, and amino acids). That's about all I can think of. I wish you luck with that

 

[Astolfo]

Hey @Terma . I hope you're doing good.

If you are not in a bad mood, May I take a bit of help from you?

I'm asking it twice, because I haven't been able to find a single report on internet.


Is there any way to upregulate 5-ht2c and fix hyperserotonergic state? Prozac treatment seems do this, but ironically, that was the actual drug what put me in this permanent situation.

 

[Terma]

Hey man, well glad to see you got through the gut problems. Honestly, I don't know how to do that other than what I said already. Personally I probably have excess 5-HT2c activation in my history so I focused on that part and quite wary of upregulating that particularly at the wrong time of day. I'm make strides on weekends but suffer during the week so I found very limited time to read through stuff.

Some people have had success with super-micro-dosing fluoxetine/prozac, but I can't vouch for that at all. It is possibly related to this: SSRIs act as selective brain steroidogenic stimulants (SBSSs) at low doses that are inactive on 5-HT reuptake and some stuff about viruses I can't recall. I do not know if that would help you other than steroid synthesis. But if you were desperate enough to try prozac again, that's the only way I would ever do it, personally (I say this basically for potential harm reduction). The other things I know were all things you said you said you couldn't try (including cannabinoids, which I hesitate to mention in the first place), I only have pond of fish. 5-HT2c and maybe other 5-HT receptors likely interplay with dynorphin/KOR and seem to trigger it, which feeds back and affects serotonin release as feedback mechanism, so all I can say else is maybe you do not have much of that either (it would lower dopamine/drive/serotonin and give analgesia), but I cannot give you any safe suggestions on that one either. (Also most likely you would want more GABAA, which you might get by restoring steroid synthesis if it's low) Practically-speaking I just don't know what to suggest else.

 

[Astolfo]

Hey man, well glad to see you got through the gut problems. Honestly, I don't know how to do that other than what I said already. Personally I probably have excess 5-HT2c activation in my history so I focused on that part and quite wary of upregulating that particularly at the wrong time of day. I'm make strides on weekends but suffer during the week so I found very limited time to read through stuff.

Some people have had success with super-micro-dosing fluoxetine/prozac, but I can't vouch for that at all. It is possibly related to this: SSRIs act as selective brain steroidogenic stimulants (SBSSs) at low doses that are inactive on 5-HT reuptake and some stuff about viruses I can't recall. I do not know if that would help you other than steroid synthesis. But if you were desperate enough to try prozac again, that's the only way I would ever do it, personally (I say this basically for potential harm reduction). The other things I know were all things you said you said you couldn't try (including cannabinoids, which I hesitate to mention in the first place), I only have pond of fish. 5-HT2c and maybe other 5-HT receptors likely interplay with dynorphin/KOR and seem to trigger it, which feeds back and affects serotonin release as feedback mechanism, so all I can say else is maybe you do not have much of that either (it would lower dopamine/drive/serotonin and give analgesia), but I cannot give you any safe suggestions on that one either. (Also most likely you would want more GABAA, which you might get by restoring steroid synthesis if it's low) Practically-speaking I just don't know what to suggest else.

I haven't tried prozac.

I tried peganum harmala (seeds) weeks ago. It didn't helped, also it gave me watery stools.

A few days later, i tried vortioxetine(5 mg). It gave me watery stools as well.

I concluded that, whenever I eat:

Meat ---> lots of bowel jerkings, noise etc.
Pastry ---> The same as above plus watery stools.

This seemed like a serotonin problem. Then I tried daily cyproheptadine. (still taking) 1.2 mg/day.

It made my bowel jerkings a lot less frequent but still I can't eat anything. All of my problems still exists. Even, my problem worsened (by time) to a point that I can't even control it. My belly creates really weird sounds in class. I feel like I have half diarrhea.

Cyproheptadine really made me comfy. Maybe it's why I have less jerks but all my problems still exists.

I think I'm going to try BCAA. But I don't have much hope. I have lost my all will to live to be honest.

 

[tara]

Hi Astolfo,

I haven't reviewed all your posts in all your threads recently, so if you've already answered these questions, sorry, and feel free to point to them if you want. I have skimmed through some of this thread, and some of the titles of your previous threads.
Am I right in thinking you are a teenager?

Have you had a doctor check that you do not have a (partial) blockage or something else structural going on in your gut?

I might have missed it, but what (and how much) are you eating? Have you posted your diet in any previous threads?
I can see you have investigated many specific substances, but I may have missed what you've tried with basic nutrition?
Have you had a go at checking using cronometer or similar whether you are missing particular nutrients? (Don't believe its low calorie advice, though.) I too expect getting regular B vits can be important. And maybe others.

Have you read threads describing foods that various people have found harder or easier to digest? Various people find different things difficult.
Have you ascertained that you can digest dairy OK? If you can't digest the lactose, that could be trouble. But some people have found it ideal.
Some struggle with too much fibre - eg pulses, whole grains, too much fibrous fruit and veges. Too little fibre can also be an issue - some kinds of fibre make good brooms.

Or with wheat or gluten. Some people find that fatty meat is easier to digest than other things, and that can give them a break.
Some have found breaking fast with ghee for a while to be helpful.
Some have found simple meals with white rice, meat, and carefully selected vegetables and juices ave worked.
There are people who have recovered by eating potatoes, and others by avoiding starches.
Some have found occasional fasts helpful to give the gut a rest . If you are starving or have habits of undereating, that may not be appropriate.
Maintenance calories also give a rough indicator of base metabolism.

Are you getting outside for regular sunlight and movement? Both can help keep energy moving in the body so it can take care of itself and recover form many things.

How's your breathing - relaxed, nasal, diaphragmatic at rest? That some of your gut issues show up more in class makes me wonder i this is related to breathing patterns. Stressed breathing or hyperventilation can reduce the oxygen supply to the gut, making it harder for it to function and heal. You can retrain breathing with practice. (Sometimes nutritional change helps with this too.)

Have you had a go at monitoring resting body temps? Resting heartrate? Any other indicators of basic metabolism?

I think you mentioned hypothermia - are you often cold? Just extremities, or core too? If you are cold to the core when the external temps are not cold, then base metabolism may be low. If it is just extremities, it may be more stress hormones, maybe can improve with breathing exercises, gently movement, etc.

Is there a way you can hang out with other friendly people without getting unduly stressed? Isolation is hard.

I am not expert in gut issues, but these factors may be relevant.
Take care.

 

[tara]

If you have bacterial or fungal infection, garlic is a simple home antibiotic food that might be helpful. There is a risk that it might be irritating, or that it might cause a die off that is temporarily (for a day or two) worse.

ETA: Have you had any tests for parasites? It may help against some parasites too.

 

[Terma]

The immediate problem is watery stools and diarrhea will lead to nutrient loss. You have to be stringent to figure out what your gut can tolerate. Pastry contains too many ingredients. The simplest thing to try is seafood and rice, completely unseasoned. Meat is hit or miss and that's not specific enough and you may do well with one and poor with another. Unfortunately the mediterranean is not the best place to get seafood but if you have imported frozen seafood then anything on low-mercury lists like shrimp or tilapia should be ok. It can contain a good balance of amino acids including taurine/glycine and if you pick right cholesterol (this is important for you). Add nothing but salt. Then you need to find a carb you can tolerate. Problems digesting carbs lead to watery/weak stools. Preferably something with potassium but that doesn't always work, white rice is the fallback. No seasonings. This is not forever but until your gut calms down. You could get electrolyte solution with K+ and others (that's the formal answer to diarrhea) but too much will cause more watery stools so you'd want it away from foods to not interfere with their absorption.

Again try melatonin if you haven't, it has gut calming activity. The 5-HT2c problem there's nothing I can say about. Even their explanations right now are quite convoluted and I cannot tell what would affect its RNA editing from that research, but it is probably part of a feedback or hormonal system. The whole phagia thing is simply because that receptor normally increases POMC signaling (ACTH/melanocortin) which would miss but it might also come from ghrelin/agouti signaling. But more generally that will be worsened by poor absorption.

Like tara said it's not a bad idea to consider infections because you might have already had one and then a shift in your immune system from drugs might have weakened your resistance and allowed something to proliferate. But you would have to get a stool test at least.

BCAA is an alright idea if it's all you can get but typically they don't make you feel great on their own. It could calm things down in your case, but other important aminos will be lacking. Sorry you're in this shitty situation, for the gut part I know it's hard but I could get mine to at least calm down significantly and that seemed impossible in the past.