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The Carrot Salad Might Help You With

Discussion in 'Carrot Salad, Bamboo Shoots, Mushrooms' started by j., May 29, 2014.

  1. j.

    j. Guest

    adapting to drinking milk

    getting used to aspirin, because according to some studies, aspirin could enhance intestinal permeability and thus serum endotoxin, so it would be helpful to eliminate some endotoxin with the carrot

    getting used to gelatin powder, because, again, the carrot eliminates endotoxin, which the gelatin powder could increase

    what else?
     
  2. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Rats without intestinal bacteria live longer. Maybe the main reason is that having less bacteria means having less endotoxin. Eating a raw carrot on an empty stomach helps to eliminate endotoxin, and adding coconut oil, olive oil, vinegar, or salt, enhances the antibiotic effect.
     
  3. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Obese people tend to have high serum endotoxin. Endotoxin slows down the liver, and the liver has more difficulty inactivating estrogen, so the raw carrot might be useful for reducing estrogen levels.
     
  4. Suikerbuik

    Suikerbuik Member

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  5. EnoreeG

    EnoreeG Member

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    The way I read this Peat quote from FPS "Something as simple as a grated carrot with salt and vinegar can produce major changes in bowel health, reducing endotoxin absorption, and restoring constructive hormonal functions" is that the carrot (or any non-grain fiber) does a lot of things that keep the gut lining healthy, like getting microbes to feed it both short chain fats and vitamins, keeping the villi clean and thriving, keeping the beneficial bacteria plentiful enough and in the right place (the large intestine) so that pathogenic species have no way to get a way through the epithelial cells into the plasma. Peat may refer to this "breaking and entering" by the endotoxins "persorption", but others also refer to it as "leaky gut".

    From what I've read, the degeneration of the immune system tracks with the degeneration of the gut endothelium to the point of letting toxins and bacteria leak through the gut wall. When you reach this point of ill health, you are in serious trouble, and you need a quick, complete remake of your population of microbes. A carrot or an apple a day is not going to do the trick. "The Carrot Salad Might Help You With..." parts of the restoration, but you'll make better progress reading a bunch about intestinal health and degeneration. Peat has a clue, but doesn't say much clearly enough to bail us out of deep doodoo. Thus we have this forum --- to help each other.

    The Peat quote in the Suikerbuik link has a lot of really great advice from Ray. But across several threads now, when I read what people echo back what they get out of it, I see they are picking and choosing. They are oversimplifying what the man said. And he's not coming across. All I can advise is maybe people need to read some other writers, and also repeat-read-Peat. It will eventually make sense for all of us I hope.
     
  6. pboy

    pboy Member

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    well from what ive experimented with, raw carrots produce like 0 gas so I don't think they get fermented at all, and therefore no SCFA. They do move pretty quickly through, and perhaps take a little bit of endo and hormonal toxins out, old cholesterol in the bile and all that...but its such a small amount that to really get an effect, unless you were already pretty clean, you might need like multiple carrots ...which are annoying to chew through. Cooked carrots still hardly produce any gas, so even they I don't think are fermented that much but moreso than raw, and you can eat more of them to get a higher surface area to clear toxins out, but then you gots beta carotene to worry about going overboard with, unless you ate rainbow carrots..the yellow, red, purple, ect. As far as the carrot being antimicrobial...no idea, I don't have an infection or haven't, so I cant tell if they're doing that or not. Its not like when I ate it I heard microbes screaming 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO', and when it passed out the next day it was the same as anything else. Though carrots do have a bitter component to them, and bitter is almost always antibiotic...but it might not make it too far past the duodenum...most bitters like that are absorbed into the liver then passed in urine quickly, 1-2 hours...so it might help a stomach bug but probably not the whole intestine
     
  7. Kasper

    Kasper Member

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    The carrot doesn't produce gas so doesn't produce SCFA reasoning doesn't really hold I guess, as potatoes also doesn't produce gas for me, but have been shown in many studies to produce SCFA.
     
  8. Nicholas

    Nicholas Member

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    yeah, i don't put my stock in the carrot salad, per se - but moreso in how it makes me feel....and how it makes me feel only at certain times. i don't know what it's doing just like anyone else here really....but i've noticed that i get similar feelings of well being from lots of raw onions, eating fruit in isolation, using vinegar in cooking, as well as eating 4 day old cold potatoes. my guess is that the power is not so much in being antibacterial but in doing something with pH or encouraging elimination.....which i assume would end up having an endotoxin lessening impact.
     
  9. pboy

    pboy Member

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    I honestly think a lot of...this has been something ive been really into the past few months, like beginning of year. Ive had re occurring problems of the same fashion but at various times on my health journey didn't have and felt like a champ during those times. Ive finally worked out what it is. I think a lot of times people associate gut issues with bad food (which often it is) or something to do with gut bacteria (which 99.99% of the time it isn't). Its really to do with bile...I didn't until recently and don't think people really realize how much bile people produce, how it cycles and works, and how toxic it can get. Most people have a liter of bile flowing through their small intestine, which gets picked up at the terminal illium, goes back into the liver and gall bladder, then spit back into the top of the intestine. Bile naturally is antimicrobial and a surfactant...so its keeps the small intestine clean and sterile regardless. The problem is that, many blood based, naturally produced toxins, as well as whats taken in, are eliminated in the bile, and for the most part they get reabsorbed and recirculated. During the digestion of one meal bile can go through the intestines multiple times, that's how fast and constant its flowing in a circular pattern. So realize, if you have a whole lotta dirty bile, anything you eat, or even between meals, your intestines will be irritated and food wont digest optimally. Many would attribute this to gut disbiosis when its really just dirty bile. Any fiber will help to an extent remove some of that, carrot, raw fruit, onions, whatever so you'll feel better. I felt almost if not the best I ever have when I was originally a vegan mostly eating fruit and cacao powder, and when I think about it it was low to no cholesterol, low fat, low iron, and very high in fiber..i was taking in like 40+ grams a day, and almost none of it was very fermentable. When I recall, the first month or so (this was the first time in my life id ever changed diet from relatively mainstream so I was unaware of how much food could impact things, I was more into it for ethics and to feel high flying all the time), id take huge shits with a lot of like...clearly oil soluble stuff in there. Then after that things were regular and my torso...which ive always been thin, but got like to the point where I could suck it in all the way and jus felt floaty in general. Im thinking what happened is that I cleared months to years or old bile out with allt he high fiber and then everything functioned well. Or it could equally have been...no meat or eggs, no microbes there, little to no starch, no microbes there, and the raw cacao being highly antimicrobial..so maybe I just did like a total microbe cleansing...dunno. Needless to say I burned out on that diet and had to change it. Basically the point is to say, very high amoutns of non fermentable fiber can be huge for intestinal health, for one reason or another, and its usually bile that's the problem, not gut microbes...and if it is gut microbes, its coming with your current food intake, its not something you caught that is lingering, its what you're eating
     
  10. Kasper

    Kasper Member

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    "I think a lot of times people associate gut issues with bad food (which often it is) or something to do with gut bacteria (which 99.99% of the time it isn't)."

    Fool... you think all those studies that have sucess with poop transplantation for chronic diarhea and other issues are placebo ??
     
  11. pboy

    pboy Member

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  12. Nicholas

    Nicholas Member

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    very cool pboy.
     
  13. Nicholas

    Nicholas Member

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    pboy - would you say, in your experience, that vegetables can be a good source of fiber for cleaning out bile? in addition to fruit...
     
  14. EnoreeG

    EnoreeG Member

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    That's the way I understand it too, Kasper and pboy. The gas thing is in the small intestine, and it's caused by 1) having already invited a lot of bacteria there from further down because you didn't eat right (not enough carrots, and other soluble fiber); 2) then eating a meal that includes sugars/starches, but may also have protein/fat, such that the ferment starts, and goes big-time because there's some sugar and way too many bacteria. The sugars ferment because the bacteria was there, waiting, but should have been absent. This condition is what is known as Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO).

    But if you are always eating enough fiber, you never get that bacterial overload in the small intestine, so no gas. You can even eat a big meal of protein, fat, sugar, starch, including fiber, and the fats, protein, and simple sugars (some converted from starch) will absorb without any bacterial overgrowth, and then the fiber will pass on down into the large intestine. There, because the fiber is so slow to digest, the bacteria finally come into play, and work like mad, but make only a little progress on that pesky fiber. No massive growth of bacteria, no bloating, no substantial fermentation, because there's no longer an sugar to feed the hoard. It's all slow, but beneficial. That's where the bacteria belong and do all kinds of great things, like produce the SCFA that then feeds the epithelium, etc. Anyway, that's how I read it.
     
  15. jyb

    jyb Member

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    But allegedly, vegetables can feed bacteria quite well, especially uncooked. This is pretty obvious for the vegetables infamous for producing odorous gas, a sign of bacterial fermentation in the gut. Also, the type of bacteria existing and encouraging to grow seems to matter a lot. The milk bacteria are gram-positive and don't produce endotoxin and are anti-inflammatory. Bacteria like gram-negative toxoplasma gondii, on the other hand, is associated with gut problems and I've read suggestions that once installed it promotes growth of E Coli, another gram-negative bacteria. So what happens if you have plenty of gram-positive bacteria passing through your intestines? From a Peat perspective, the problem there is the lactic acid. I never experienced gas nor odours while drinking kefir and sauerkraut (both are gram-positive strains) for example, just a different stool consistency for the better, so I doubt there is "overgrowth" (if there was a risk, then the Caucasian tribes drinking all milk fermented would have gut problems, especially since they triple-fermented it which is basically kefir with multiple times the count that people do at home now, and I haven't heard that to date). I am not sure if they increase the gut population count however, although I believe think they can have some influence on the flora composition or on the gut lining, at least that is suggested by studies for some strains.
     
  16. EnoreeG

    EnoreeG Member

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    If your read the Peat quotes earlier in this thread, it's accepted that vegetables are supposed to feed bacteria, and you actually want to have an ample supply of bacteria in your lower gut or you have essentially no immune system. So the issue about vegetables is to always feed the bacteria -- just not in the small intestine. Eat enough fibrous veggies (Peat suggests a particular carrot salad because he thinks that's the best way to get the veggies moving through the small intestine) so that your large intestine dwelling microbes can feast, make vitamins and fats to absorb and keep the lower digestive tract lubricated and sealed against leakage.

    Yes, you are right that the types of food you eat (whatever balance of say, milk vs veggies) will heavily affect your particular mix of microbes. And if you eat way more veggies than milk products (as I do) you will have way more gram-negative bacteria in your lower intestine. The bacterial mix always tracks with the food you eat. I don't use the word "overgrowth" regarding this mix though, only if the bacteria are in the small intestine. That is generally what is referred to as an "overgrowth". Primitive people all over the world live on vegetables primarily (and probably have a predominance of gram-negative bacteria) and have no gut problems. Or for that matter, liver problems. These are two things often mentioned as risks faced from endotoxins. Part of the liver's function is to handle these toxins.

    For the great "liver tradeoff" check this out and find the heading "Trade Your Liver for Vegetables":

    http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2014/02/phytochemicals-natural-antibiotics-and.html

    What is missed in discussing only endotoxins, and the fact that they come from vegetables, is the consideration that you also get many good, health preserving things from the vegetables, that you can't possibly get in the same quantities from meat or dairy products. As mentioned earlier, there's vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients (phenolic acids, flavonoids, stilbenes, and lignans), etc. Do these veggie features outweigh the dangers of endotoxins? I think they do. It's up to others to check it out on their own.

    My feeling toward this is, eat right such that you have a healthy gut, and the foods you have selected will also make sure you have all your organs healthy. For you, this may mean mostly dairy, for me, mostly vegetables. For sure our gut microbiome may be very different because it eats at the same table we do. No matter. Just make sure you're getting good nutrition. For me, I can't do without all the nutrient density provided by vegetables.

    Here's more on why your gut microbial mix will make sure you aren't growing a lot of inflammatory or toxic germs down there if you just put a few species into dominance (as via probiotics):

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ted+talk+bonnie+bassler&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    Here's more on the polyphenols you get from fruits and veggies and how they protect from disease:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835915/

    Here's more on polyphenol food sources and how much different populations ingest daily (Europeans take in a lot more of these than those in the USA):

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/5/727.full

    Here's just another reason you need an ample supply of fiber, to keep an ample supply of bacteria healthy in you large intestine - it has to do with your immune system component known as Treg's:

    http://www.msdiscovery.org/news/new...ria-boost-anti-inflammatory-immune-cells-mice

    Without the short-chain fatty acids produced from fiber by your gut bacteria, you are going to be low on Tregs, and thus have a hampered immune system (and of course less vitamins also). There's apparently a ton of things in your body that are dependent on you feeding those gut microbes. And they can only eat well and stay numerous if you eat fiber.

    Cheers
     
  17. tara

    tara Member

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    I pretty sure that is not what Peat is saying in those quotes. You don't have to agree with him, but I think it's a stretch to to say he is supporting your view on this.
    I read him as saying that the reason carrots and bamboo shoots are so useful is because they do not feed bacteria as much as many other fibrous veges, that the carrot salad has a mildly anti-biotic effect, and that this along with its mechanical effects, helps reduce bacteria and endotoxin in the gut.
    I do see him saying that getting the bacteria out of the small intestine is particularly helpful, but I don't see anywhere that he says it is good to have lots of bacteria in the large intestine.
    As far as I can tell, he acknowledges that we will all have some gut bacteria, a sterile gut is not possible, some bacteria are more problematic than others. But he still seems to favour lowering bacteria quantities over all.

    I think Peat has described lignans as likely problematic.

    I eat some fruit and veges and get some fibre from them, but other than the carrot salad, I don't consider it Peat's recommendation.
     
  18. EnoreeG

    EnoreeG Member

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    We are nit picking here tara, but I don't think our differences are significant. First, my cited "quotes earlier in this thread" is wrong. The quote I wished to cite wasn't even in this thread, though I think you've read it and were replying to it anyway, so thanks for that! It was a Peat quote which was circulating here, thanks to a re-quote on FPS:

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on-the-benefits-of-the-raw-carrot/

    which was, in part:

    If this is the quote we are actually discussing, I see Peat as on both sides of the subject. He mentions a couple of times that carrot fiber "suppresses bacterial growth". He says this is good because it reduces estrogen and endotoxins. What is unclear here is whether his hope is to reduce bacteria overall, or only in the small intestine. After all, he does imply his focus is on reducing bacteria in the small intestine when he says:

    So it is unclear if he wishes the carrot fiber (or other beneficial fibers) to also reduce the bacterial load in the large intestine. However, he implies that he doesn't want that to happen when he says

    Here he is pointing out that the carrot fibers can go too far in terms of wiping out bacteria, and actually lower the vitamin K production (from bacteria in the large intestine) too far. He is suggesting only broccoli as a fiber remedy, but it is just a different fibrous plant, containing cellulose, which will help restore the health giving properties of the microbes in the large intestine. So even though Peat never explicitly say "build up those large intestine microbial populations", I think he admits they are necessary and can get too low, especially from eating carrots.

    So that's why I said what I did and gave Peat some credit for it, as I'm not trying to inflame people here. In truth though, I think there's a lot more that could be presented in favor of having a varied and plentiful gut microbial community. I think Peat has laid one hair of a small paintbrush on the subject with just one little stroke, and has many people trying to follow his advice because he has quite a faith based following.

    Meanwhile, there are studies painting a different picture in broad strokes, compiling vast amounts of data that prove that the endotoxin issue is absolutely dwarfed by the positive effects of microbes in the gut. The fiber (the more varied types the better) that reaches the large intestine is what keeps a healthy microbiome alive there, and lets those microbes produce vitamins, fats, and immune system factors that keep not just the gut, but the whole person in great health. Therefore, eating a food just because it has "natural antibiotics" appears to be a risky thing to do, based on how important it is to keep a healthy mix of microbes thriving in the lower gut. Even Peat warns you may have to take remedial action.

    Here's a few articles on the issue:

    http://datateca.unad.edu.co/contenidos/401585/Bacteria_as_vitamin_suppliers.pdf
    http://www.msdiscovery.org/news/new...ria-boost-anti-inflammatory-immune-cells-mice

    And it's not all about fiber to feed microbes. If you limit your vegetable intake, you are missing out on the values provided only from the plant kingdom - things like polyphenols:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835915/

    This is a huge subject, of vast importance to human health, but I'll let it rest for now.

    Cheers
     
  19. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    I think this quote from Ray Peat supports Tara's view (and not EnoreeG's view) that Ray is keen to reduce bacteria in both the small and large intestines while removing and suppressing unwanted hormones:

    (This may be from a recent article as it mentions cooked mushrooms...)

    “The food industry is promoting the use of various gums and starches, which are convenient thickeners and stabilizers for increasing shelf-life, with the argument that the butyric acid produced when they are fermented by intestinal bacteria is protective. However, intestinal fermentation increases systemic and brain serotonin, and the short-chain fatty acids can produce a variety of inflammatory and cytotoxic effect. Considering the longevity and stress-resistance of germ-free animals, choosing foods (such as raw carrots or cooked bamboo shoots or cooked mushrooms) which accelerate peristalsis and speed transit through the bowel, which suppressing bacterial growth, seems like a convenient approach to increasing longevity.”
     
  20. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    I think the bike explanation from pboy is part of it also. Binding bile may be why carrot salad or charcoal reduce estrogen.
     
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