The Abundant Energy Legacy

[Razvan]

If copper floats around in excess is usually from excess estrogen. All the symptoms you were indicating were the same as high estrogen. You don't resolve the main problem just with zinc even tho It can help short therm. You should try high dose vitamin E with maybe K2 for a period.

 

[Razvan]

Niacinamide apart from all the benefits is also good because it can deactivate liver estrogen.

 

[redsun]

Well there are lots of possible causes for copper overload, besides eating too much beef liver.

If your water system has too much copper then your laundry would get a blue tint, so it would be pretty obvious. That not the case for me.

You can also get copper overload by simply being zinc deficient because that tweaks the Cu:Zn ratio.

If you eat or ate a vegetarian or plant-based diet you can easily get a zinc:copper imbalance, because a lot of plants seem to be rich in copper relative to zinc.

I think you actually need some daily red meat or beef for sufficient zinc.
I think the classic Ray Peat Diet could potentially lead to zinc deficiency, because of the little red meat consumption, high dairy / calcium intake (which reduces intestinal zinc-absorption) and relatively high copper intake. (liver, mushrooms, fruits)

It seems the zinc from dairy should be absorbable even if the calcium in dairy is high. There have been studies suggesting high calcium does reduce zinc absorption but it wasnt using food (dairy). I think we should always strive for around 1g calcium daily for absorbable sources its too important to not have.

Exactly. Dr. Abram Hoffer and Dr. Walsh have observed this with a lot of his patients who suffered from panic disorders or paranoid psychosis. Their therapy was up to 50mg of zinc, 3000-4500mg niacin or niacinamide, magnesium, B6 and folic or folinic acid. They were advised to avoid copper-rich foods and copper-containing supplements.
Dr. Walsh said somewhere that taking 5mg of copper has the effect of D-amphetamine, which can cause paranoia in a bad physiological state or with chronic usage.

I maxed out at sometimes 10mg of copper a day from lots of beef liver, OJ, mushrooms, whole food vitamin C and so on for about a year.

Another thing with zinc! - Chris Masterjohn mentioned that the zinc-transporter is maximally saturated with 7mg of zinc and that it takes 5h for another 7mg to be absorbed.

So maybe we can only assimilate 21-28mg a day effectively, even though my total intake is higher and therefore tweaking my Zn:Cu ratio?

I will stay on the zinc for a while now, but will take it out after a while, when things have been stabilized.

And with 25mg of zincbisglycinate with a bioavailability of around 50% you only get like 12mg of zinc on top.

Zinc also improves my digestion significantly, boost libido, feel more androgenic.

If you were sometimes getting 10mg of copper a day and probably average greater than 5mg daily for over a year no wonder you had problems. Definitely causes a low histamine state over time but also likely an imbalance in the zinc and copper levels in the tissue (which causes its own problems including hormone imbalance, digestion, psychiatric symptoms etc).

 

[backtotheteens]

I think the classic Ray Peat Diet could potentially lead to zinc deficiency, because of the little red meat consumption, high dairy / calcium intake (which reduces intestinal zinc-absorption) and relatively high copper intake. (liver, mushrooms, fruits)

What about oysters?

 

[youngsinatra]

It seems the zinc from dairy should be absorbable even if the calcium in dairy is high. There have been studies suggesting high calcium does reduce zinc absorption but it wasnt using food (dairy). I think we should always strive for around 1g calcium daily for absorbable sources its too important to not have.



If you were sometimes getting 10mg of copper a day and probably average greater than 5mg daily for over a year no wonder you had problems. Definitely causes a low histamine state over time but also likely an imbalance in the zinc and copper levels in the tissue (which causes its own problems including hormone imbalance, digestion, psychiatric symptoms etc).

Yes, I was convinced by Morley Robbins and his Root Cause Protocol, that the high copper intake is very beneficial for all sorts of health problems.

 

[youngsinatra]

What about oysters?

Oh I forgot about the mighty oysters! Never consumed them.

 

[redsun]

Yes, I was convinced by Morley Robbins and his Root Cause Protocol, that the high copper intake is very beneficial for all sorts of health problems.

Yeh morley seems to convince quite a few people but only in a few instances is it truly helpful and what an individual may need. It can be helpful for excess histamine, poor concentration and other neurological problems but if you don't have those high copper intake can easily create more problems than it solves.

 

[Nomane Euger]

Yeh morley seems to convince quite a few people but only in a few instances is it truly helpful and what an individual may need. It can be helpful for excess histamine, poor concentration and other neurological problems but if you don't have those high copper intake can easily create more problems than it solves.

Hi,i myself develop symptoms of copper excess when I ate grass fed grass finished young lamb liver daily like 60 grammes.how hunter gatherers or carnivore animals get around with eating a relatively high amount of liver at certains times with out getting symptoms of copper excess,if you have any speculation

 

[backtotheteens]

All those symptoms you listed, could stem from bacterial overgrowth as well (which could be behind high estrogen). Zinc, b1, magnesium all help in better digestion, I think. Sorry if I missed it, how did you find out you had low histamine issue ?

 

[youngsinatra]

All those symptoms you listed, could stem from bacterial overgrowth as well (which could be behind high estrogen). Zinc, b1, magnesium all help in better digestion, I think. Sorry if I missed it, how did you find out you had low histamine issue ?

I don‘t think so. I get really bad symptoms by specifically eating copper–rich foods or consuming methyldonors like TMG. I had a horrific psychological breakdown on 200mcg methylfolate once, that felt like a horrortrip. Taking a methyl–depletion agent like niacin or niacinamide brings complete relief of symptoms in 10 minutes.

 

[youngsinatra]

I just watched a video from Chris Masterjohn, where he states that he doesn‘t recommend taking B3 to deplete excess methyl groups. He advises to increase glycine intake instead, because it acts like a methyl buffer, but with the benefit of being regulated internally, where as niacinamide act like an external regulation strategy with the potential downside of sliding into undermethylation.

Luckily a new package of collagen arrived today. Will add it to my ground beef again. 10g per lbs of beef.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Taking a methyl–depletion agent like niacin or niacinamide brings complete relief of symptoms in 10 minutes.

Interesting...for me niacin/niacinamide makes me feel very depressed/spaced out. We seem to be on opposite ends of the methylation spectrum.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Luckily a new package of collagen arrived today. Will add it to my ground beef again. 10g per lbs of beef.

Maybe you're getting an even better deal than I am, but I've been super happy with the quality of amandean's 1kg grass-fed collagen.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think externally managing my methylation is non-optimal. I got into the undermethylation range yesterday evening, because I took a big amount of niacinamide. I needed a small dose of TMG to get to sleep, because I was so hot and awake due to high histamine levels.
I don‘t think that micromanaging is really the way to go.

I‘ll try Chris Masterjohn‘s Methylation Protocol:

I. Get 3-5 mg of riboflavin (to support any possible defects of MTFHR-genes)
II. Get 100% of RDI of folate via diet
III. Double the choline intake (1000mg)
IV. Increase glycine intake (1g of collagen protein per 5g of total protein intake; glycine is the universal internal methyl-buffer according to Chris)
V. Increase creatine intake to 3-5g (1-2 lbs of ground beef)

Of course I will try to avoid copper-rich foods in the meanwhile, because they flare my symptoms big time. I am even thinking about getting some pure glycine powder, because it would be more cost-efficient than collagen.

 

[Sefton10]

I think externally managing my methylation is non-optimal. I got into the undermethylation range yesterday evening, because I took a big amount of niacinamide. I needed a small dose of TMG to get to sleep, because I was so hot and awake due to high histamine levels.
I don‘t think that micromanaging is really the way to go.

I‘ll try Chris Masterjohn‘s Methylation Protocol:

I. Get 3-5 mg of riboflavin (to support any possible defects of MTFHR-genes)
II. Get 100% of RDI of folate via diet
III. Double the choline intake (1000mg)
IV. Increase glycine intake (1g of collagen protein per 5g of total protein intake; glycine is the universal internal methyl-buffer according to Chris)
V. Increase creatine intake to 3-5g (1-2 lbs of ground beef)

Of course I will try to avoid copper-rich foods in the meanwhile, because they flare my symptoms big time. I am even thinking about getting some pure glycine powder, because it would be more cost-efficient than collagen.

I think a food first approach like this is ultimately always best. Nutritional yeast is a good source of riboflavin and folate that is more food like than supplement. I agree on pure glycine too - very cheap and I think likely cleaner than a lot of commercial gelatin/collagen powders.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think a food first approach like this is ultimately always best. Nutritional yeast is a good source of riboflavin and folate that is more food like than supplement. I agree on pure glycine too - very cheap and I think likely cleaner than a lot of commercial gelatin/collagen powders.

I agree. To increase choline I’ll use 4-5 large whole eggs, for glycine I’ll use 30g of collagen powder from grass-fed cattle, for folate requirements I’ll use fresh orange juice and whole eggs, for creatine intake I’ll use 1.5 lbs of lean ground beef. The only thing, that is hard to get enough of is riboflavin for me. It‘s actually not that high in peat-approved foods except ruminants liver and oysters, but I avoid those because of their high copper content at the moment. I’ll use some pure riboflavin powder that I have at home, maybe 2-3 times per week.

 

[youngsinatra]

Other supplements I use are topical vitamin D3 (50‘000 IU on forearms), sublingual K2-7 (200mcg) and some oral magnesium bisglycinate (300-600mg).

+ A little bit of B1 a couple times a week.

 

[Sefton10]

The only thing, that is hard to get enough of is riboflavin for me. It‘s actually not that high in peat-approved foods except ruminants liver and oysters, but I avoid those because of their high copper content at the moment.

Not sure if you consume dairy, but milk is a pretty decent source!

 

[youngsinatra]

Not sure if you consume dairy, but milk is a pretty decent source!

No I never tolerated dairy well, even back in childhood. I also remember that I never craved any dairy and especially not cheese, even though I am a real rarity in my dutch family, because they truely love that stuff.

I really crave mineral-water though, probably for the calcium. I get 1500mg a day roughly.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I agree. To increase choline I’ll use 4-5 large whole eggs, for glycine I’ll use 30g of collagen powder from grass-fed cattle, for folate requirements I’ll use fresh orange juice and whole eggs, for creatine intake I’ll use 1.5 lbs of lean ground beef. The only thing, that is hard to get enough of is riboflavin for me. It‘s actually not that high in peat-approved foods except ruminants liver and oysters, but I avoid those because of their high copper content at the moment. I’ll use some pure riboflavin powder that I have at home, maybe 2-3 times per week.

kidneys is great for riboflavin,heart is good