Tetracycline To Reverse Osteoporosis, Tooth Decay And Periodontal Disease?

[Antarehs]

Low dose tetracycline may be better for periodontal disease. There are studies with 20mg doxycycline taken twice a day for 6 months reversing osteoporosis and periodontal disease.

First I apologize if I'm posting in the wrong section... I'm a new user and couldn't find a more appropriate place. Regarding the low dose tetracycline used to reverse osteoporosis: I have both fairly advanced osteoporosis, tooth decay and periodontal disease, all of which started at a young age despite extensive tetracycline use in childhood. I already take K2 and magnesium, but I haven't seen an improvement, possibly because my gallbladder was removed 20 years ago so I probably have impaired absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Additionally, I've used PPI's on-and-off for almost 3 years due to very severe GERD and a bleeding esophagus. I have switched from PPIs to Ranitidine 10 months ago and I'm now weaning myself off of it too, but the increase in osteoporosis can't be understated -- I fractured my feet twice in the last 2 years. Would the 20mg doxycycline twice a day for 6 months impact the acidophilus flora that is likely to already have a hard time surviving in the hostile environment created by antacids and the constant bile drip? And does it have to be doxycycline or would any other tetracycline work? Thank you and I apologize for my rambling.

 

[haidut]

First I apologize if I'm posting in the wrong section... I'm a new user and couldn't find a more appropriate place. Regarding the low dose tetracycline used to reverse osteoporosis: I have both fairly advanced osteoporosis, tooth decay and periodontal disease, all of which started at a young age despite extensive tetracycline use in childhood. I already take K2 and magnesium, but I haven't seen an improvement, possibly because my gallbladder was removed 20 years ago so I probably have impaired absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Additionally, I've used PPI's on-and-off for almost 3 years due to very severe GERD and a bleeding esophagus. I have switched from PPIs to Ranitidine 10 months ago and I'm now weaning myself off of it too, but the increase in osteoporosis can't be understated -- I fractured my feet twice in the last 2 years. Would the 20mg doxycycline twice a day for 6 months impact the acidophilus flora that is likely to already have a hard time surviving in the hostile environment created by antacids and the constant bile drip? And does it have to be doxycycline or would any other tetracycline work? Thank you and I apologize for my rambling.

Recent studies show that periodontal disease is tied to endotoxin and TLR4 activation. Vitamin D, emodin, niacinamide, vitamin A, vitamin B2 are all TLR4 antagonists and drugs like ketotifen, cyproheptadine, naltrexone and minocycline are pharma chemicals with the same effects. I would try the supplements first before jumping on the drugs. If you search the forum for "TLR4 periodontal" you will find some info.

 

[Orion]

First I apologize if I'm posting in the wrong section... I'm a new user and couldn't find a more appropriate place. Regarding the low dose tetracycline used to reverse osteoporosis: I have both fairly advanced osteoporosis, tooth decay and periodontal disease, all of which started at a young age despite extensive tetracycline use in childhood. I already take K2 and magnesium, but I haven't seen an improvement, possibly because my gallbladder was removed 20 years ago so I probably have impaired absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Additionally, I've used PPI's on-and-off for almost 3 years due to very severe GERD and a bleeding esophagus. I have switched from PPIs to Ranitidine 10 months ago and I'm now weaning myself off of it too, but the increase in osteoporosis can't be understated -- I fractured my feet twice in the last 2 years. Would the 20mg doxycycline twice a day for 6 months impact the acidophilus flora that is likely to already have a hard time surviving in the hostile environment created by antacids and the constant bile drip? And does it have to be doxycycline or would any other tetracycline work? Thank you and I apologize for my rambling.

What is your calcium intake like? ~2 grams per day is good. Have you checked your calcium to phosphate ratio with a food/calories calculator like chronometer? Along with what Haidut posted RP thinks the Ca/P ratio is important. Also you can put the fat soluble vitamins A/D/E/K on your skin for absorption.

 

[Orion]

Aspirin can be tool to help rebuild bone as well.

"Calcium activates mitochondrial respiration, and lowers adrenaline (Luft, et al., 1988), parathyroid hormone (Ohgitani, et al., 1997), and prolactin (Kruse and Kracht, 1981). Copper, which is the co-factor for the cytochrome C oxidase enzyme, activated by thyroid, is essential for bone formation and maintenance, and is consistently deficient in osteoporosis. Thyroid hormone increases the body's ability to assimilate copper.

Aspirin, which stimulates bone formation, has other thyroid-like actions, including activation of mitochondrial respiration and energy production, with an increase of cytochrome C oxidase (Cai, et al., 1996), and it lowers serotonin (Shen, et al., 2011). It also apparently protects against calcification of the soft tissues, (Vasudev, et al., 2000), though there has been surprisingly little investigation of that. "Aspirin can promote trabecular bone remodeling, improve three-dimensional structure of trabecular bone and increase bone density of cancellous in osteoporotic rats by stimulating bone formation. It may become a new drug for the treatment of osteoporosis" (Chen, et al., 2011).

A wide range of inflammatory mediators that accelerate inflammation and bone loss also inhibit thyroid function. People who ate more polyunsaturated fat, which inhibits thyroid and oxidative metabolism, were several times more likely to have osteoporotic fractures (that is, essentially spontaneous fractures) than people who ate the least (Martinez-Ramirez, et al., 2007).
Arachidonic acid stimulates prolactin secretion, and prolactin acts on the thyroid gland to decrease its activity, and on other tissues to increase their glycolysis (with lactate production), while decreasing oxidative metabolism (Spatling, et al., 1982; Strizhkov, 1991).

Living at high altitude, which strengthens bones, increases thyroid activity and decreases prolactin (Richalet, et al., 2010) and parathyroid hormone (Khan, et al., 1996). It lowers free fatty acids, which lower bone mass by reducing bone formation and increasing bone resorption (Chen, et al., 2010). In menopausal women, polyunsaturated fatty acids and even monounsaturated fats are associated with bone loss, fruit and vegetable consumption protects against bone loss (Macdonald, et al., 2004)."

 

[Poppyseed13]

Vitamin K2 MK4 has made a significant difference in my teeth/gum health. Sensitivity is way down. I don't feel rough spots from tartar buildup. Gums good---no bleeding and they have a lovely pale pink color (not the deep red inflammed gums typically have). Haidut's Kuinone is great for this. But any good brand of K2-MK4 would probably do. I think dose is important. I am taking 45 mg. three times a day.

 

[charlie]

I am taking 45 mg. three times a day.

That's a lot!

 

[Poppyseed13]

@Antarehs

In some countries (Japan, Thailand) 45 mg. three times a day is prescribed/recommended for osteoporosis. I have not had any trouble at all taking this amount. I have just finished a three month course, and am getting some tests run---when I have the results I will post a fuller account. I feel very good on 45 mg. three times a day. I have not had any side-effects. I have also not had any trouble in taking three doses a day.

I have not gone to the university med center library yet, but this is one abstract I was able to find online:
Highly recommended dose of MK4 for osteoporosis. J Med Assoc Thai. 2009 Sept. 1992. Supplement 5: S4-6. Authors: Bunyaratavej N., Kittimanon, N., Jitivirai T., Tongthongthip, B.

Abstract: The recommended dose of Menatretenone is 45 mg. three times a day; however the compliant in daily practice is not convenient. The study shows the twice dose per day is inferior to the recommended dose. This study used the level of Gla protein in osteocalcin as a parameter for the comparison. The mean of three-time dose a day is 11.27 ng/ml while the mean of the other group is 6.07 ng/ml after the three-month treatment [sic].

 

[charlie]

when I have the results I will post a fuller account.

Look forward to those results.

 

[Ras]

I am taking 45 mg. three times a day.

So you finish a bottle every eight days?

 

[Poppyseed13]

@Ras

No. I bought five different brands of Vitamin K2 MK4:

1. Kuinone
2. Complementary Prescriptions
3. Thorne
4. Vitamin Research Products
5. Glakay

I take 45 mg in the morning: Kuinone (about 15 mg.), Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), and Thorne (15 drops)
At Noon: I take Vitamin Research Products (15 mg. capsule), Glakay (15 mg. capsule), and Kuinone (15 mg.)
At 6 pm: I take Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), Thorne (15 drops), and Vitamin Research Products (15 capsule)

Is it expensive? Yes. But much cheaper than poor dental health and shitty fragile bones.

I think @haidut's Kuinone is the superior product, but I don't want a lot of DMSO on my skin. I take several other supplements with DMSO and hubby objects to smell.... sigh.

 

[haidut]

@Ras

No. I bought five different brands of Vitamin K2 MK4:

1. Kuinone
2. Complementary Prescriptions
3. Thorne
4. Vitamin Research Products
5. Glakay

I take 45 mg in the morning: Kuinone (about 15 mg.), Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), and Thorne (15 drops)
At Noon: I take Vitamin Research Products (15 mg. capsule), Glakay (15 mg. capsule), and Kuinone (15 mg.)
At 6 pm: I take Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), Thorne (15 drops), and Vitamin Research Products (15 capsule)

Is it expensive? Yes. But much cheaper than poor dental health and shitty fragile bones.

I think @haidut's Kuinone is the superior product, but I don't want a lot of DMSO on my skin. I take several other supplements with DMSO and hubby objects to smell.... sigh.

Thanks for the feedback on Kuinone!
FYI, In about a week, there will be about 50% less DMSO in the Kuinone and all other DMSO supplements and this seems to completely eliminate the irritation.

 

[TubZy]

@Ras

No. I bought five different brands of Vitamin K2 MK4:

1. Kuinone
2. Complementary Prescriptions
3. Thorne
4. Vitamin Research Products
5. Glakay

I take 45 mg in the morning: Kuinone (about 15 mg.), Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), and Thorne (15 drops)
At Noon: I take Vitamin Research Products (15 mg. capsule), Glakay (15 mg. capsule), and Kuinone (15 mg.)
At 6 pm: I take Complementary Prescriptions (15 mg. capsule), Thorne (15 drops), and Vitamin Research Products (15 capsule)

Is it expensive? Yes. But much cheaper than poor dental health and shitty fragile bones.

I think @haidut's Kuinone is the superior product, but I don't want a lot of DMSO on my skin. I take several other supplements with DMSO and hubby objects to smell.... sigh.

I use thorne. I never went up to 45mg 3 times a day though. I have a few deep pockets towards the back on my gums. I think it started when I started peating due to the increase in sugar.

You think it really makes a difference for gums? I may switch to that dosage. Anything else you take like magnesium?

I wonder if a bad gut causes impairs K2 in the body which leads to bad gums/teeth. Replacing K2 would fix that problem.

 

[Poppyseed13]

Hi @TubZy ---

--I started the high dose Vitamin K2/MK4 largely to heal my bones. I am near menopause, and have had stress fractures in feet that have refused to heal. After three months, the pain in feet have largely subsided. I did not have a before/after DEXA scan.
--As for teeth and gums: I think trialling a high dose such as the one I am taking is worth a shot. I would build up to it.
--I take quite a few vitamins and supplements every day:
--All B-vitamins are taken individually. I worked this out years ago. I cannot take a B-complex---I am intolerant of any but very small doses of B6 (I am autistic/Aspergers---and a subset of us seem unable to process B6 quickly)
--Minerals: Lots and lots of Magnesium throughout the day. (Many autistics have problems with too much Calcium---calcium-channelopathies).... the magnesium helps with this. I take: Magnesium Glycinate, Mag. L-Threonate, Mag. Malate, and occas. Mag. Citrate)
--I still need some Calcium---so I drink some milk, eat cheese, some yoghurt. I find it interesting that I can eat food with sig. Calcium, but get very sick on Calcium supps.
--I take Vitamin D3 (you need this with the K2, but I am unsure of the ratio), Zinc/Copper supp., Selenium, Boron, and up until starting K2 a GTF Chromium supp. (K2 worked very well on my blood sugar---so much so, that when combined with the GTF Chromium it was way too low, so I dropped it)
--I take Ubiquinol, PQQ, and quite a lot of L-Carnitine.
--The L-Carnitine is anti-thyroid, but with autism I have impeded carnitine pathways----I need it, and I still stay quite warm.

--I have been taking Thyroid for 3 or 4 years now. My dose depends on the time of year (less in the summer, more in the winter)... BUT this year, with my trial of high dose of Vitamin K2/MK4 ... I had to reduce my dose to minimal levels. I think this is because K2 has been a hidden, limiting factor----everything (all vit. supps) seem to work better with a lower dosage now that I have added the K2. My most recent TSH has been well below 1.0 ---and I feel good with it at this level.

--I would like you to know that I took Vitamin K2/MK7 for many years with absolutely no effect as far as I could tell. My response to K2/MK4 has been HUGELY positive. I will be taking it for the rest of my life.

In my opinion, a bad gut impairs everything leading to robust good health. I can pour tons of supplements, good food into a poor gut and won't get a lot of benefit. I have found it useful to eat Resistant Starches, experiment with some good probiotics until finding a couple of good ones, eating a carrot a day. Healing the gut helps with so much.

I think experimentation is the way to go. I wish you good health.

Cheers,
Poppyseed13

 

[Poppyseed13]

Ha @TubZy --

I wrote all that and didn't address your question about K2/MK4 helping gums.

Yes. I think it would definitely help heal your gums: In Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox, she includes a short section on oral health---recommending Vit. K2/MK4 and Vitamins A and D for healing. I would stick some Vit. E in there and you have all the fat-soluble vitamins: A-D-E-K.

--I think the severity of your periodontal problems should be considered when you think about how much Vitamin K2/MK4 you want to take, and for how long.

For me, the stress/micro fractures in my feet and teeth/gum problems were a glaring warning that I need to take aggressive action not only to reverse the damage, but to create robust bones for the next many decades.

Finally, I don't anticipate staying at this very high dose (45mg/3xday) forever. This dose is designed to heal the bones. Then figure out a healthy maintenance dose. Some women take the very high dose for a year or so, and the go to a maintenance dose.

Cheers.

 

[TubZy]

Ha @TubZy --

I wrote all that and didn't address your question about K2/MK4 helping gums.

Yes. I think it would definitely help heal your gums: In Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox, she includes a short section on oral health---recommending Vit. K2/MK4 and Vitamins A and D for healing. I would stick some Vit. E in there and you have all the fat-soluble vitamins: A-D-E-K.

--I think the severity of your periodontal problems should be considered when you think about how much Vitamin K2/MK4 you want to take, and for how long.

For me, the stress/micro fractures in my feet and teeth/gum problems were a glaring warning that I need to take aggressive action not only to reverse the damage, but to create robust bones for the next many decades.

Finally, I don't anticipate staying at this very high dose (45mg/3xday) forever. This dose is designed to heal the bones. Then figure out a healthy maintenance dose. Some women take the very high dose for a year or so, and the go to a maintenance dose.

Cheers.

Thanks for the thorough answer! Yeah, I will definitely check it out for sure. I actually have a full bottle of thorne right here which I'm thinking about using at high doses. I think my gums could def use the high dose though everything else I have tried didn't really help. It's not terrible but I definitely noticed a slight recession since peating.

I also eat a lot of calcium (milk, ice cream etc.) so I'm sure without a good source of K2 it won't be much of help.

The antibiotics properties at a high dose must be pretty strong too, which is another reason it could help with the gums?

 

[Poppyseed13]

Hi @TubZy ---

I am not sure about the antibiotic properties. I would have to go over the research compiled by @haidut again... you might ask him directly if he can recall specifically the antibiotic effects of K2/MK4

 

[haidut]

Hi @TubZy ---

I am not sure about the antibiotic properties. I would have to go over the research compiled by @haidut again... you might ask him directly if he can recall specifically the antibiotic effects of K2/MK4

It looks like regular vitamin K1 and K2 do not have much antibiotic effects. But vitamin K3 (menadione), which is a metabolite of vitamin K2 in the body, does have potent antibacterial effect. Related molecules like 1,4-naphthoquinone, CoQ1, and CoQ3 also have anti-bacterial effects. See below study.
http://aac.asm.org/content/57/11/5432.full
"...Gram-positive bacteria cause serious human illnesses through combinations of cell surface and secreted virulence factors. We initiated studies with four of these organisms to develop novel topical antibacterial agents that interfere with growth and exotoxin production, focusing on menaquinone analogs. Menadione, 1,4-naphthoquinone, and coenzymes Q1 to Q3 but not menaquinone, phylloquinone, or coenzyme Q10 inhibited the growth and to a greater extent exotoxin production of Staphylococcus aureus, Bacillus anthracis, Streptococcus pyogenes, and Streptococcus agalactiae at concentrations of 10 to 200 μg/ml. Coenzyme Q1 reduced the ability of S. aureus to cause toxic shock syndrome in a rabbit model, inhibited the growth of four Gram-negative bacteria, and synergized with another antimicrobial agent, glycerol monolaurate, to inhibit S. aureus growth. The staphylococcal two-component system SrrA/B was shown to be an antibacterial target of coenzyme Q1. We hypothesize that menaquinone analogs both induce toxic reactive oxygen species and affect bacterial plasma membranes and biosynthetic machinery to interfere with two-component systems, respiration, and macromolecular synthesis. These compounds represent a novel class of potential topical therapeutic agents."

 

[Antarehs]

Recent studies show that periodontal disease is tied to endotoxin and TLR4 activation. Vitamin D, emodin, niacinamide, vitamin A, vitamin B2 are all TLR4 antagonists and drugs like ketotifen, cyproheptadine, naltrexone and minocycline are pharma chemicals with the same effects. I would try the supplements first before jumping on the drugs. If you search the forum for "TLR4 periodontal" you will find some info.

Haidut and everyone else, thank you very much for your reply. I am extremely concerned about the osteoporosis. I already take Vitamin D, K2, niacinamide, Vitamin A, B2, magnesium glycinate and recently just started back on aspirin. I'd rather not take drugs, but at this point I'm considering the doxycycline. Will any tetracycline work the same for osteoporosis or does it have to be doxycycline? And will 20mg twice a day impact the acidophilus flora?
Thank you again!

 

[haidut]

Haidut and everyone else, thank you very much for your reply. I am extremely concerned about the osteoporosis. I already take Vitamin D, K2, niacinamide, Vitamin A, B2, magnesium glycinate and recently just started back on aspirin. I'd rather not take drugs, but at this point I'm considering the doxycycline. Will any tetracycline work the same for osteoporosis or does it have to be doxycycline? And will 20mg twice a day impact the acidophilus flora?
Thank you again!

Any tetracyline should work. The 20mg twice a day may affect gut flora but it should be in a good way and it should not kill all bacteria. Peat himself say he uses 50mg 2-3 times a week to keep gut flora in check.

 

[TubZy]

Any tetracyline should work. The 20mg twice a day may affect gut flora but it should be in a good way and it should not kill all bacteria. Peat himself say he uses 50mg 2-3 times a week to keep gut flora in check.

Is it possible to make a topical minocycline from the 100mg tablets? Basically crush up and dissolve in warm water and swish around in mouth? Based on studies it seems to work better topically and you can avoid any digestive issues from taking it orally.